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Thread: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

  1. #31
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    For me, though I realize it won't happen, I wish ALL draft boards drop him off completely.

    Again, IMO, this is NOT the same issue to be considered in terms of discrimination as, say, religion or race. In addition to those necessary and specific questions related to NFL athleticism, i.e.:

    ...there should also be a perspective associated with gender morality / moral fiber.

    I feel there are NFL players that truly feel uncomfortable having MS teammates in their locker room or on the field as opponents. As in having a real or imaginary disease, the "koodies", etc. Or, simply because those minorities go directly opposed to their religious and/or moral beliefs, very particular philosophical beliefs. One does not necessarily hate them, and in fact can work alongside with them in a non sports / contact sports environment where sweat and blood are a regular physical interaction.

    But to imagine the NFL rosters a few years from now growing in numbers of gay players (probably even willing to accept their little rainbow symbols either as part of their special uniforms or on flags of euphoric fans in the stands) ... it makes me shudder.

    I am strongly against the stubborn imposing of this culture on a sport that I love. I hope there will be many NFL players, even their NFLPA, available to stand up against the pro gay posture with courage and conviction, with more character than that of gay pride (yuk).
    Realram, you have been watching and most likely cheering for gay players since you started watching NFL football. This isn't something new. This isn't about "imposing a culture on the sport that you love". It's already there, you just weren't privy to who is gay. Think about that, you have most likely cheered for some gay players. How has this changed you, or affected your life in any way? The answer is, it hasn't. They played, you cheered.

    Whether Michael Sam is a good leader or not, or a good football player or not really has nothing to do with his sexual preference. He is either a leader, and a player, or he isn't, period.

    I believe M.Sam came out so he could do it on his own terms before the media got a hold of it and threw it out there. I believe he wanted to do it his way, and not be dictated to by the media. It wasn't simply for attention.

    If the Rams feel M.Sam can contribute to our team to help us win, bring him aboard. If not, then don't. His sexual preference changes nothing.

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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    For me, though I realize it won't happen, I wish ALL draft boards drop him off completely.

    Again, IMO, this is NOT the same issue to be considered in terms of discrimination as, say, religion or race. In addition to those necessary and specific questions related to NFL athleticism, i.e.:



    ...there should also be a perspective associated with gender morality / moral fiber.

    But then, that would not only be going against the grain (e.g., NFL commissioner Goodell having a lefty brother; former commissioner Tagliabue having a homo son), as modern day societal trends go (even 1st lady Michele Obama's has sent a congratulatory message to Sam [the man?!?], or the XXII Winter Olympics reluctantly "having" to "respect" these kind of people), it would also ruin the party by the scandal -- and therein, the distraction -- that an avalanche of discriminatory law suits would produce.

    I feel there are NFL players that truly feel uncomfortable having MS teammates in their locker room or on the field as opponents. As in having a real or imaginary disease, the "koodies", etc. Or, simply because those minorities go directly opposed to their religious and/or moral beliefs, very particular philosophical beliefs. One does not necessarily hate them, and in fact can work alongside with them in a non sports / contact sports environment where sweat and blood are a regular physical interaction.

    Sure, this did not seem to be much of an issue at Mizzou because, IMO, the younger the people, the more willing they are to adapt these 'present day culture of acceptance'. A not-too-distant everything goes approach to a you're cool / I'm cool mentality.


    I reiterate: personal tolerance in general is one thing, even if I don't respect an individual. But to consider MS my "leader" (as he is being called in the collegiate world), and furthermore, to play American football with or against him?... NO, I don't think so!


    Times change, I know. Often this reflects an evolution that is based on solidarity and support, on a so-called modern and progressive understanding. But to imagine the NFL rosters a few years from now growing in numbers of gay players (probably even willing to accept their little rainbow symbols either as part of their special uniforms or on flags of euphoric fans in the stands) ... it makes me shudder.

    What next -- NFL gay players kissing on the mouth after a win on live TV? Or, celebrating in gay fashion their NFL G.A.Y. parties (Gay Anniversary Yodle)? Picture that living room scenario among wholesome families. [ Once more, I know it is becoming more and more prevalent, starting in collegiate programs; but, to me it is S.O.S.: simply / obscene / sickening. ] How about transvestites kissing their favorite NFL player after a score and leap onto the stands... I see this as consequential, almost inevitable. "Oh, what's that you say -- there will be new rules for excessive celebration among players wearing a rainbow decal on their helmet? Oh, I see. Fairness and consideration rules for non-gay players."




    I am strongly against the stubborn imposing of this culture on a sport that I love. I hope there will be many NFL players, even their NFLPA, available to stand up against the pro gay posture with courage and conviction, with more character than that of gay pride (yuk).


    For now, I see all this media attention working in MS's favor. But I sure hope that he does NOT meet the football expectations of NFL owners and coaches at the scouting combine.

    Just thought I would drop my point of view into this discussion after reading the above and being ashamed that a fellow fan could write this. (shame that people still think this way to be honest)

    Michael Sam should be evaluated purely on his ability to play the position and contribute to a team. I personally dont know how he would project at the position but if he was better and fitted our OLB position than any other player he should be taken. Sadly I imagine there are too many people involved that still are narrow minded enough (people that would agree with RealRam) to warrant him not being evaluated on merit alone.
    Last edited by sntlouisrams; -02-11-2014 at 12:34 PM.
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    I suppose two things are in order:

    1. Everyone is posing this as "he came out so the rumors wouldn't come out later and control the story" which I believe is at least partly why he did it, I also believe that was horrifically bad advice. People have pointed out (correctly) numerous times in this thread that there have been gay players in the past...there are gay players now.

    Tell me, if that's the case, why are we worried that *this particular* gay player would have had it thrown out in the media for all to see?


    2. What makes me ashamed is the knowledge that when this kid goes in the 4th-7th rounds, people in various parts of the media will tell you it is because he is gay. They will act like he was a first or second round talent and somehow his sexuality dropped him. They will do this to intentionally create a story about how horrible people are in this country, because then they can use it for political motives. That is a huge shame, and it is going to happen. I can probably name the outlets that will do it, but I'm sure most of you can too. Unfortunately, we live in a society in which that is seen as acceptable. Equally unfortunately, we live in a society that is actively attempting to silence the people who feel as RealRam does, who has every right to feel the way he does, whether or not people agree with it. Silencing opinions is the first step on the road to tyranny. You don't have to agree with them and if you don't, you should actively argue against them....which leads me to...

    3. (Ha, you thought I'd stick to two?) I'm really happy to see that this forum, unlike most of society, does not silence opinions many deem negative and does in fact speak to and against them, rather than pretend they don't exist. RealRam is able to speak his mind without negative consequences, and I think that's awesome.

    4. (Shift ontopic maybe?) Does anyone think this guy is a good idea in the late rounds for a rotational player on our defensive line?
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    If I was an employee of the Rams' front office, I'd try to find out what OTs in the NFC West think about playing against an openly gay pass rusher. If they are particularly ignorant and, as a result, unwilling to block such a player, I'd take Sam and line him up on the outside on every passing down.
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post
    I suppose two things are in order:

    1. Everyone is posing this as "he came out so the rumors wouldn't come out later and control the story" which I believe is at least partly why he did it, I also believe that was horrifically bad advice. People have pointed out (correctly) numerous times in this thread that there have been gay players in the past...there are gay players now.

    Tell me, if that's the case, why are we worried that *this particular* gay player would have had it thrown out in the media for all to see?
    If you can't see the difference between there "have been gay NFL players" and "there haven't been OPENLY gay NFL" players, then you aren't in a position to judge whether this is "good" PR move. Seriously. How many openly gay players did so while they played? I have a nickel for anyone who can name one.

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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Haha nice one AV.

    And wow at some of the replies to this thread. I thought the internet and online message boards didn't exist in 1914. Crazy!


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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post

    Times change, I know. Often this reflects an evolution that is based on solidarity and support, on a so-called modern and progressive understanding. But to imagine the NFL rosters a few years from now growing in numbers of gay players (probably even willing to accept their little rainbow symbols either as part of their special uniforms or on flags of euphoric fans in the stands) ... it makes me shudder.

    What next -- NFL gay players kissing on the mouth after a win on live TV? Or, celebrating in gay fashion their NFL G.A.Y. parties (Gay Anniversary Yodle)? Picture that living room scenario among wholesome families. [ Once more, I know it is becoming more and more prevalent, starting in collegiate programs; but, to me it is S.O.S.: simply / obscene / sickening. ] How about transvestites kissing their favorite NFL player after a score and leap onto the stands... I see this as consequential, almost inevitable. "Oh, what's that you say -- there will be new rules for excessive celebration among players wearing a rainbow decal on their helmet? Oh, I see. Fairness and consideration rules for non-gay players."




    I am strongly against the stubborn imposing of this culture on a sport that I love. I hope there will be many NFL players, even their NFLPA, available to stand up against the pro gay posture with courage and conviction, with more character than that of gay pride (yuk).


    For now, I see all this media attention working in MS's favor. But I sure hope that he does NOT meet the football expectations of NFL owners and coaches at the scouting combine.
    Of course you are very much entitled to your opinion and I normally very much enjoy your posts. However, this seems like you're projecting a very much out-of-date stereotype onto Michael Sam and parts of this post seem down right absurd (why would a player want a rainbow on his uniform?!?). As other posters have already pointed out, gay players have been playing in the NFL since forever (some of which you've probably cheered on yourself) and yet none of your fears have come to fruition. Life is a learning process and I hope, in future, you are able to cheer for any player regardless of his innate characteristics.

    If the coaching staff think he could play in a 4-3 defense and he was on the board in round 4 or 5 then I think he'd be a great pick.
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    I just can't imagine wanting gay players to be shunned, or banned from playing in the NFL. I also can't imagine working your entire life toward the goal of being an NFL player, attaining that goal, then having to live in the shadows, in constant fear that you will be "outed", ostracized, ridiculed, vilified, or stripped of your dreams, simply because of who you are.

    Like most others, I don't care about someone's lifestyle. I care about what they do on the field, and if they can make plays that help my team win games.

    I have mixed feelings about alternative lifestyles, but I see Michael Sam as a courageous, brave man who is smashing a barrier, and putting everything on the line by doing what is right.
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    If you can't see the difference between there "have been gay NFL players" and "there haven't been OPENLY gay NFL" players, then you aren't in a position to judge whether this is "good" PR move. Seriously. How many openly gay players did so while they played? I have a nickel for anyone who can name one.

    But that's kind of my original point. If he doesn't say anything, none of this happens. The argument has been that he "came out" to take control of the story, but if he doesn't come out, it's unlikely the story comes out or someone else would have already had it happen to them. Now the media is just using him and will use him when he doesn't get drafted high. That's the unfortunate reality of today's media, they are out to make political statements and will use anyone however they can to do it.

    This guy is going to get played, this story isn't his, it's the media's. I still don't know much about him as a football player and that, in my mind, is absolutely wrong. If we are going to say that everyone should be treated the same, then they need to be treated the same. If he were straight, no one would talk about him at all except for scouts and some Mizzou fans until the day he gets drafted. Now his draft position is going to be analyzed because of his sexuality, not his play.


    If coming out was important to him, he should have done it after being drafted, when the media would have been less likely to use and abuse him and his team could have moved to protect him from the media sharks.

    Edit: I think, from everything I have seen, that someone gave this guy atrocious advice. They told him to "own his story" by coming out now instead of after the Draft or not at all. The end result is...the Media owns him now. They have taken what he said and spun and spun and will spin and spin and will talk about it for a month, maybe more, then talk about it again on Draft day, then talk about how horrible the NFL is for drafting a gay man so late, then they will talk about it EVERY TIME HIS NAME COMES UP.

    It won't be (so and so player from the Rams, for example) it will be "so and so player, the only openly gay player in the nfl..." etc etc every time he is mentioned for any reason. And oh dear lord what they will do if he gets cut.
    Last edited by BrokenWing; -02-11-2014 at 03:33 PM.
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I also can't imagine working your entire life toward the goal of being an NFL player, attaining that goal, then having to live in the shadows, in constant fear that you will be "outed", ostracized, ridiculed, vilified, or stripped of your dreams, simply because of who you are.
    All painfully true. The idea that a player disclosed he is gay is somehow an attention seeker, that it's a bad idea or it doesn't matter is mind boggling to me.
    1. If he was an attention seeker, he'd have done it before now. This kid did absolutely nothing on the field until his final year at Mizzou so he'd have to be the worst attention seeker in the world.
    2. It isn't my position to tell someone else that their disclosing private information is a bad idea FOR THEM.
    3. It's a HUGE matter if you or some you care about is gay. The suicide rate of gay kids isn't something to ignore. It's a massive deal for some people that he disclosed this information and will have (hopefully) positive implications for a LOT of people down the road. To declare otherwise, I'd have to wonder if you've stepped out into the real world in the last 20 years. Just as Derrick Coleman's playing in the NFL as a deaf player was MASSIVE for some people, this will be equally as important for some people.
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBritishRam View Post
    ...This seems like you're projecting a very much out-of-date stereotype onto Michael Sam and parts of this post seem down right absurd (why would a player want a rainbow on his uniform?!?). As other posters have already pointed out, gay players have been playing in the NFL since forever (some of which you've probably cheered on yourself) and yet none of your fears have come to fruition. Life is a learning process and I hope, in future, you are able to cheer for any player regardless of his innate characteristics.
    Please rest assured I will never cheer for a known homo player, regardless of the sport.

    There is no doubt in my mind that, as time goes by, the more relaxed and lenient the NFL (and other pro leagues) would become about gay "rights" and the more common it would be, and commonly accepted, to see some sort of rainbow trademark on a helmet decal or uniform patch -- just as they are often displayed on motorcar windows, clothing, bikes, etc. Little by little, these types of emblems will lose the 'absurdity' that you alluded to. They will be displayed with more openness and pride, of course. Gay pride.

    A few more years in the NFL, it would not surprise me to see gay parades as a normal part of the half-time shows. For me, this is sad. Sickening.


    Look, I'm not denying MS's LB abilities and yes, most teams will be careful to adhere to league acceptance policies, i.e., to not discriminate. That's the modern-day trend and present culture: tolerance and respect, particularly for gays. Signs of the Times, if you will. That's what some people advocate, NFL players included, such as Jerome Bettis, John Elway, Tony Gonzalez and so on.

    I've worked in management for many years and the odds are that one will be in the company of a gay co-worker. I've written hundreds of evaluations and never did I degrade an individual's performance due to sexual orientation. Mind you, this was in the early to late 80s. The situation was not as open or public as it is now (and will continue to be).


    I simply do not share that view and am in fact bothered by people that actually try to impose it.


    If the coaching staff think he could play in a 4-3 defense and he was on the board in round 4 or 5 then I think he'd be a great pick.
    Yes, probably. In my eyes, though, MS would be rejected with the same vehemency as a SF 49r (okay, as a Seattle Squawk too). A simple analogy follows...

    If I had two new cars to choose from, exact same color / features inside and out, exact same mileage, exact same performance, etc., everything being equal except that one is made in Korea and the other in the USA or Europe, for me, I'd select the latter. No hesitation. To me, there's an automotive influence, lineage and tradition to appreciate and consider when making a purchase decision.

    To me, there is a similar comparative preference when considering an NFL player such as MS.


    PS: All these pro / against views are inevitable. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is brought on by the magnitude of an open and personal MS announcement that has captured, and been highlighted by, the media. Right now it is a 'Breaking News' / headline type of sensation.

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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post

    [...] It will be "so and so player, the only openly gay player in the NFL..." etc. etc., every time he is mentioned for any reason. And oh dear lord, what they will do if he gets cut.
    You're right, the media will keep this story on the front burner as long -- and as hot -- as they can.

    I can only imagine if MS gets cut! 'Wow' in advance.

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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsbruce View Post
    Realram, you have been watching and most likely cheering for gay players since you started watching NFL football. This isn't something new. This isn't about "imposing a culture on the sport that you love". It's already there, you just weren't privy to who is gay. Think about that, you have most likely cheered for some gay players. How has this changed you, or affected your life in any way? The answer is, it hasn't. They played, you cheered.

    Whether Michael Sam is a good leader or not, or a good football player or not really has nothing to do with his sexual preference. He is either a leader, and a player, or he isn't, period.

    I believe M.Sam came out so he could do it on his own terms before the media got a hold of it and threw it out there. I believe he wanted to do it his way, and not be dictated to by the media. It wasn't simply for attention.

    If the Rams feel M.Sam can contribute to our team to help us win, bring him aboard. If not, then don't. His sexual preference changes nothing.
    Oh, no, no, no. I'm not naive to think this is something "new", please! It is a story thousands of years old. But as I replied a couple of posts ago, rest assured I will never cheer for a player that I know is gay. Likewise, I would never consider that person a role model. MS, whomever. That player may make good plays but the fact that he/she is a he/she, it WOULD thus affect my opinion. Yes, absolutely.


    One of the ironical aspects of all this is to label people such as myself as 'narrow minded', or worse, soon-to-be the 'abnormal'.

    Mannn!
    Last edited by RealRam; -02-11-2014 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Emoticon

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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    Two things happened in one week:

    DE Ted Agu from Cal University died while weight lifting. RIP to a young man who lost his life.

    DE Michael Sam came out of the closet.

    I'll bet 90% of you have never heard of Agu, and yet know about Sam. It's a sad world we live in. These are our priorities?
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    Re: Michael Sam: Some Questions I'd Want Answered Before Drafting Him

    His sexual preference should never have been mentioned IMO. It now breeds controversy and could be a cant win scenario.

    If hes drafted low-- then teams exhibit bias, if hes drafted high, then teams took him to placate the media.

    How about he just said -- Im Michael Sam, Sam I am, and Im a football player- period.

    Front office people may or may not have found out-- but im sure if they did they wouldnt grill him about it as that most certainly would get out.

    Im curious to know the what if factor now if this guy has a huge combine.
    IE at 6'2" 255lbs

    runs a 4.5X 40
    BP 38 X 225
    39" vertical

    On Sirrius NFL radio-- most of the hosts who watched him play say hes a rd 3-5 pick no matter what, as his inability to figure out how to play LB hurt him at the Senior Bowl.

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