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  1. #16
    RAMPAGE! Guest

    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    It really is this simple, look at our big board and

    TAKE THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE!!!!

    Yes I said it, based on our pre draft grades and barring some far out trade senario which I would welcome you must... see above


  2. #17
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Several days late, and prob. a dollar short. But anyhow as I've said, here's my take. If you look at the some of the recent drafts, I feel there is SIGNIFICANT drop off at the WR position after the first one is taken...especially when you have a top 5-10 talent at that position. In '08 and '06 there was no clear "elite" WR so WR didn't go until "late". In '06 the first WR taken was Santonio Holmes at pick 25, followed by Chad Jackson at pick 36, then Sinorice Moss at pick 44. In '08 the top 3 drafted were Donnie Avery at 33, followed by Devin Thomas at pick 34, and then Jordy Nelson at pick 36...with no real "standout".

    In the '07 draft Calvin Johnson was taken at #2, Ted Ginn at #9, then at #23 Dwayne Bowe. In '05 the first WR taken was at #3 being Braylon Edwards, followed by Troy Williamson at #7 and then Matt Jones at #21. In '04 Larry Fitzgerald went at pick #3, then at pick #7 Roy Williams was selected then Lee Evens rounded out the top 3 at pick #13. Finally in '03 Charles Rodgers was taken #2, then immediately after at #3 Andre Johnson was taken, then Bryant Johnson was selected at pick 17.

    Look closely at the list, and just be honest and admit there is pretty big gap in talent, and by landing the top WR we'd be set for the next decade. Even though Det. dropped the ball in '03 by taking Rodgers over Johnson, and Houston was immediately on it...if you replace them in that draft, it begins to take shape. While many of the "other" WR on this list have had good careers, as well as many others that were drafted outside the top 3, it remains that the truly elite WR is special and needs to CONSTANTLY be double covered.

    Having said that, I think we have to be honest with ourselves and know that this is probably a two year project. OL can be plugged right in, and make an immediate impact. I will never deny that. But I feel if you want to build the best team in two yrs we have to get that special elite WR (if there is one...we'll know more after the combine). It typically takes WR's 2 yrs to develop, and I think we did get a pretty good one last yr in Donnie Avery...but let's be honest right now, and say we know he's not a true #1 WR dictate what the defense has to do WR. He is going to need someone who is, to pair up alongside. And right now I'm not too thrilled about our depth at WR.

    When I was out Saturday night and talking to a fellow Ram fan he made the argument that WR's don't touch the ball enough, and that there's always a ton of them out there. But I argue WR makes differences without even touching the ball, they command defenses, open things up in the running game and how often on a single play can they change the tide of a game.

    I know its the unpopular choice, but in the 2nd round we can go OL. Then on top of that if we still don't have the depth, we can go OL again in the first round in '10 and really shore up the line. If we don't get 2 starters in Free Agency on the OL, then I feel its going to be a multi year draft need so we better get the first "special" player in a decade. Remember drafting Holt #6 in '99? We haven't drafted a real special on offense since then! Last year didn't really have a true elite standout, as going into the draft the feeling was that it was going to be a crap shoot at the WR position. D. Jackson emerged, as I felt he prob. would, but there were too many ?'s on him. There's always OL at pick 20 that get the job done if they aren't busts...but we should NEVER pass on a elite skill player that has top 5 talent. That might change, and maybe after the combine there won't be one, but right now I feel that Crabtree or whoever else grades that high at WR without question HAS TO be our pick!

    Finally, there were 8 OT taken in the first round last yr. I don't think that will be the case this yr, and there is definitely going to be a good one there for us at the top of the 2nd round.
    Last edited by LongBlood; -01-21-2009 at 12:43 PM.

  3. #18
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Sometimes that happens to me, and through trial and error I've discovered that at some point, something you've written gives the board fits. You can generally find out what that is by copying and pasting sections into the Message Box and previewing them one at a time to see if they show up. Once you paste a section in and get the error, you know what section you need to delete and rewrite. Give it a shot and see if it works. It has for me at times in the past.
    Thanks for the advice Nick! Glad I copied it before I submitted it.

  4. #19
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    I've played devil's advocate on the Crabtree pick before, but there's a new wrinkle to consider.

    The buzz going around thanks to the hiring of Shurmur as offensive coordinator is that the Rams consider a move towards West Coast-style offense. However, the Rams only have one receiver who measures in over the six-foot mark, and that's Drew Bennett.

    Adding a receiver like Crabtree, who has many of the skills you want for a receiver in the West Coast offense (good size, can play the ball well in traffic, prolific after the catch), would help the Rams better transition to that offensive scheme.

  5. #20
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Weddle View Post
    I always like the idea of trading down when rebuilding, but, we really need to find Pace's replacement and fix the O-Line as Barron just isn't working out.

    An article on Seahawknationblog stated:

    "If not taken for granted, I think the idea of having a hall-of-fame caliber left tackle has become something of a novelty for Seahawks fans, almost a cliché.

    Even if I’m totally off-base, I’ll note that HOF tackles, unlike almost any other position, are nearly impossible to come by in later rounds, or even later in the first round.

    The three best tackles of the last 10 years, in my opinion at least, are Jones, Orlando Pace, and Jonathan Ogden, in no particular order. None of the three were drafted outside of the top six.

    There are very few notable total busts among tackles taken early, with perhaps Robert Gallery, Tony Mandarich, and Mike Williams as the poster boys. Those guys’ drafts span 15 years."

    I agree and think that Smith, Munroe or Oher offers the safest value for us @1.2
    This is exactly why I think we need to take a LT here. It's easier to judge how well a tackle will do in the NFL than it is probably any other position, so the top ones get gobbled up right away. You simply cannot expect to get a pro-bowl LT outside of the top 5 picks or so, and so this will hopefully be the Rams' last chance to take a premier LT any time in the near future.

    LT is one of the most important positions on the field and this is (hopefully) the last chance the Rams will have to grab a great tackle in a draft where there's some great talent at the position to be had.

  6. #21
    Warner4prez Guest

    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Look in the middle rounds.
    Ramses Barden could slip to round 3. His 40 time is on par with Crabtree, but this guy is 6'6'' with hands like glue. He's not a burner, but comprable to Marques Colston, but quicker out of his cuts.
    First two picks need to go to our top most needs, o-line and hopefully safety or MLB.
    I just realized I sound like a Washington lobbyist. Kinda gross. Sorry if there are any Washington lobbyists I may have offended.
    Last edited by Warner4prez; -01-21-2009 at 03:16 PM.

  7. #22
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Enough with the scrub Rames from Caly -Poly

    if you read reviews on him , he couldn't even get open in the Senior Bowl never mind the NFL

    Crabtree is a nice player but you cannot take a WR that high

    its a waste especially when there are great OL and DEf players there

    Crabtree is not that far ahead of guys like Britt and if you are thinking this is a 2 year project you are going to have some good WRs out again next year

    Crabtree, Britt, Macklin -- everyone else is a waste unless you need a returner on special teams

  8. #23
    mdurkin Guest

    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    No way on Crabtree. They need to solidify both lines and get bigger.

  9. #24
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongBlood View Post
    Several days late, and prob. a dollar short. But anyhow as I've said, here's my take. If you look at the some of the recent drafts, I feel there is SIGNIFICANT drop off at the WR position after the first one is taken...especially when you have a top 5-10 talent at that position. In '08 and '06 there was no clear "elite" WR so WR didn't go until "late". In '06 the first WR taken was Santonio Holmes at pick 25, followed by Chad Jackson at pick 36, then Sinorice Moss at pick 44. In '08 the top 3 drafted were Donnie Avery at 33, followed by Devin Thomas at pick 34, and then Jordy Nelson at pick 36...with no real "standout".

    In the '07 draft Calvin Johnson was taken at #2, Ted Ginn at #9, then at #23 Dwayne Bowe. In '05 the first WR taken was at #3 being Braylon Edwards, followed by Troy Williamson at #7 and then Matt Jones at #21. In '04 Larry Fitzgerald went at pick #3, then at pick #7 Roy Williams was selected then Lee Evens rounded out the top 3 at pick #13. Finally in '03 Charles Rodgers was taken #2, then immediately after at #3 Andre Johnson was taken, then Bryant Johnson was selected at pick 17.

    Look closely at the list, and just be honest and admit there is pretty big gap in talent, and by landing the top WR we'd be set for the next decade. Even though Det. dropped the ball in '03 by taking Rodgers over Johnson, and Houston was immediately on it...if you replace them in that draft, it begins to take shape. While many of the "other" WR on this list have had good careers, as well as many others that were drafted outside the top 3, it remains that the truly elite WR is special and needs to CONSTANTLY be double covered.

    Having said that, I think we have to be honest with ourselves and know that this is probably a two year project. OL can be plugged right in, and make an immediate impact. I will never deny that. But I feel if you want to build the best team in two yrs we have to get that special elite WR (if there is one...we'll know more after the combine). It typically takes WR's 2 yrs to develop, and I think we did get a pretty good one last yr in Donnie Avery...but let's be honest right now, and say we know he's not a true #1 WR dictate what the defense has to do WR. He is going to need someone who is, to pair up alongside. And right now I'm not too thrilled about our depth at WR.

    When I was out Saturday night and talking to a fellow Ram fan he made the argument that WR's don't touch the ball enough, and that there's always a ton of them out there. But I argue WR makes differences without even touching the ball, they command defenses, open things up in the running game and how often on a single play can they change the tide of a game.

    I know its the unpopular choice, but in the 2nd round we can go OL. Then on top of that if we still don't have the depth, we can go OL again in the first round in '10 and really shore up the line. If we don't get 2 starters in Free Agency on the OL, then I feel its going to be a multi year draft need so we better get the first "special" player in a decade. Remember drafting Holt #6 in '99? We haven't drafted a real special on offense since then! Last year didn't really have a true elite standout, as going into the draft the feeling was that it was going to be a crap shoot at the WR position. D. Jackson emerged, as I felt he prob. would, but there were too many ?'s on him. There's always OL at pick 20 that get the job done if they aren't busts...but we should NEVER pass on a elite skill player that has top 5 talent. That might change, and maybe after the combine there won't be one, but right now I feel that Crabtree or whoever else grades that high at WR without question HAS TO be our pick!

    Finally, there were 8 OT taken in the first round last yr. I don't think that will be the case this yr, and there is definitely going to be a good one there for us at the top of the 2nd round.
    I think you make some good points, here, but there's also some stuff I disagree with.

    For one, I tend to agree with your Ram fan friend that WRs don't "touch the ball enough." Sure they change defenses even when they don't touch the ball, but that can be said about pretty much every position. In my opinion, and I could be wrong about this, WR is the most over-rated position on the field. I'm not saying they're not important, but I can think of a lot more examples of teams with great OL but mediocre WRs excelling than the reverse. The Eagles and Giants have built great teams with pretty modest WRs overall. On the flip side, teams like Arizona, Cincinnati, and Detroit struggled despite their talented WRs in large part because of poor OLs.

    Also, I think it's easier to find a great WR at #15 than it is to find a great LT at #15, so to the extent that we should be looking at this as a 2- to 3-year project (and I agree we should), I think that's an argument in favor of taking a LT this year.

    I agree with you to the extent that if I thought we could grab one of the big 4 LTs (A Smith, J Smith, Monroe, Oher) at the beginning of the 2nd I'd be all for it, but that's not going to happen.

    I guess I wouldn't hate the Crabtree pick, but it's definitely not my first choice, at least at this point. Maybe he'll blow us all out of the water at the combine and I'll change mind (at which point Al Davis would feel compelled to trade up to #2 to grab him anyway).

  10. #25
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I've played devil's advocate on the Crabtree pick before, but there's a new wrinkle to consider.

    The buzz going around thanks to the hiring of Shurmur as offensive coordinator is that the Rams consider a move towards West Coast-style offense. However, the Rams only have one receiver who measures in over the six-foot mark, and that's Drew Bennett.

    Adding a receiver like Crabtree, who has many of the skills you want for a receiver in the West Coast offense (good size, can play the ball well in traffic, prolific after the catch), would help the Rams better transition to that offensive scheme.
    As an addendum, the WCO, its hot routes, and play-action utilization would keep the ball in Bulger's hands for less time than in the current system.

    That is to say, the offense itself may help to protect Bulger, thereby lessening the need for an OT in the first round.

    Just sayin'...
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  11. #26
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Crabtree, Britt, Macklin -- everyone else is a waste unless you need a returner on special teams
    #2 behind Crabtree? Honestly, I haven't seen him higher than 6th or 7th among all WRs. If you're right about him, then you need to get hold of some NFL GMs.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  12. #27
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Enough with the scrub Rames from Caly -Poly

    if you read reviews on him , he couldn't even get open in the Senior Bowl never mind the NFL

    Crabtree is a nice player but you cannot take a WR that high

    its a waste especially when there are great OL and DEf players there

    Crabtree is not that far ahead of guys like Britt and if you are thinking this is a 2 year project you are going to have some good WRs out again next year

    Crabtree, Britt, Macklin -- everyone else is a waste unless you need a returner on special teams
    you have an unhealthy obsession with Britt, but its understandable being from NJ lol. He is a good prospect, but there are others better than him. Unless Jeremy Maclin miraculously falls or there are no WR's taken in the first round like last year that's the only way I consider takin a wideout till at least round four or later. It is a whole other story if we trade or release Holt.

  13. #28
    djdeeznutz Guest

    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    I agree Micheal Crabtree could be great this year as a slot Wide Reciever and learn so much from Torry Holt. And i know we dont want to trust Pace and Barron next year but both have a year left on their contract.

    Think about it in the future (we are re-building) we will ave the best 1-2 WR punch with DOnnie Avery and Micheal Crabtree.

    Then we can take Max Unger in the 2nd round he is a center out of Oregon.

  14. #29
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    I want all the clan ram forums to remeber this...

    I was first to say Crabtree won't be legit in the NFL

    Britt and Macklin are the 2 WR's to get

    I guarantee Britt will be gone in first 40 picks

    90% chance he will be gone in first round possible as high as 18

    Crabtree is soft, he will have an injury filled career, and not a very long one

    Crabtree rarely took any big hits and played in an offense that juiced up his stats

    Dez Bryant is way better than Crabtree and personally I think both Britt and Macklin are

    I know I have been hyping Britt up alot but I can live without the Rams picking him in the draft

    I just didn't want to see us waste our 2nd round pick and some DT or SS that just isn't that good when there is a legit talent like Britt

    but it seems he will be gone by then

    I love the new management, GM, and Coaches if we are ever gonna make a turn around its gonna be in the next 3 years

    otherwise we should dismantle and become a NAIA team

  15. #30
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    Re: My case for Michael Crabtree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    On the flip side, teams like Arizona, Cincinnati, and Detroit struggled despite their talented WRs in large part because of poor OLs.
    Just to be facetious, I don't quite consider going to the Super Bowl struggling

    I think the only way the Rams take Crabtree is if he establishes himself as a one of a kind talent. If he has separated himself tremendously from every other WR (which I think he has the capability to do), then it would be foolish to pass on him. Unless of course one of the big four establish themselves as the leader of the pack, because as of right now I think it is a toss up between the Smiths, Oher, and Monroe. I'll agree with Rampage, with the 2nd pick, you better take the BPA, regardless of position (unless you have taken one n the 1st round with the regularity of the Lions, that strategy clearly does not work)

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