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  1. #16
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Read into what you will
    I don't want to read into it; I'm looking for you to clarify your position. There are plenty of examples of a back-up rookie defensive end contributing in his first year. But is it your belief that anyone we would have drafted at that position in the second round would have had zero immediate impact? Because that's what you seem to do whenever you refer to a back-up DE as simply being a pick for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Take a back up DE in the seond and another back up RB in the ???? Thats one way to go. FO and coachs did it thier way. I agree with them...
    That's fine, we can agree to disagree. I happen to think using that adding depth at both DE and RB in this draft is better than just adding depth at RB, which is what we ended up doing. Doesn't mean I think we blew it, but I also don't think we did as well as we could have in addressing the needs of our ENTIRE team.

    As for ideal situations, I agree with you in that having Hall play the full season and get double-digit sacks would be the best case scenario. However, if Hall gets injured, it would be a lot better to have another defensive end capable of helping out rather than trying to shift Carriker over from defensive tackle. Can we at least agree on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator View Post
    I'm a Rutgers guy, so I'm biased.... but Leonard is much more than a backup.
    Leonard is capable of doing many things, I agree. But unless he replaces Steven Jackson as the starting tailback, then he is by definition a back-up on the depth chart. Maybe he offers you more than your typical back-up, but he's a back-up nonetheless.

    That doesn't mean we won't find ways to use him, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not in the starting line-up, and because of it, no matter how much we use him he's probably not going to see as many plays as a full-time starter would.

    Meanwhile, you could take a DE in that spot, or even a center like Kalil, and get someone at a position where they could eventually start for you and become an every-down player. So, as versatile as Leonard is, is it worth passing up on a potential starter at an equally questionable position? That's the question we have to ask, and ultimately the one we disagree on.

    The great thing is, though, even if we disagree, it doesn't change the fact that we got a great prospect. So agree or disagree, we still won out in terms of adding a quality player. It's not as if we passed on other talent for a questionable guy like some might say Tennessee did by drafting Chris Henry in the second round. That's a pick that, had we made it, I would be pretty irate about.

    Quote Originally Posted by mde8352gorams View Post
    I would say drafting Brian Leonard was a solid move as the edge rushers available were not worthy of a 2nd round pick.
    Drafting Leonard was a solid move, and my point has never been that it was a horrible one but simply perhaps not the best one we could have made. So on that we agree. But that said, I'm not sure I can agree with the latter part of your statement.

    Five of the next ten picks after Leonard were defensive ends or players capable of playing defensive end (McBride, Crowder, Abiamiri, Alama-Francis, Bazuin). I would think Crowder specifically must have been pretty good value at that point, because Denver drafted him after already spending a first round pick at the position.

    When that many ends are taken after our pick, it's hard for me to believe there was no value at that position there.

    Quote Originally Posted by z.nrd View Post
    He created blitz packages last year, for all the good it did.

    This team still needs a true pass-rushing end to play behind Hall and to come in on pass-rushing situations.

    Leonard is indeed a good pick and well worth it.

    But the Rams still need a pass-rushing right DE regardless.
    Exactly. Haslett tried to manufacture pressure from other positions quite a bit in 2006, and the results were mediocre at best, and that may be being a bit generous. I'm not exactly looking forward to another year of bringing 2+ linebackers on a blitz that doesn't get there before the QB hits his target on a hot read.

    Let me put it this way - I like the addition of Leonard, but I would have liked it a lot more if we would have been able to add a Charles Johnson in round three or a Brian Robinson in round four to also help out our pass rush. In the end we missed out on both, and I think that forces me to take a second look at that round two pick and how things played out.

    Would the Rams have been better served overall as a team by going Carriker-Crowder/Abiamiri-Hunt in the first three rounds? Only time will tell. As I said earlier, the great thing is I think we'll still be served well with the guys we did pick, so perhaps the entire debate is of little real importance.
    Last edited by Nick; -05-02-2007 at 04:58 PM.

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  2. #17
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    I don't want to read into it; I'm looking for you to clarify your position.
    I will try…

    You said…


    Even if they don't start, you have a guy you can bring in as part of a rotation whom you can develop to start in the future. Little (33 this fall) and Hall (30) aren't going to be around for the long-haul, and we lack a pass rusher to develop for the future and rotate in with them.



    In your words not mine “a guy you can bring in as part of a rotation whom you can develop to start in the future”, “we lack a pass rusher to develop for the future and rotate in with them”.

    After reading these statements. If I had to choose between a back up DE that will play part time and be here in the future. Or the Leonard pick. I will take the pick. I’m sure the DE could help the team this year. I just think Leonard fills a bigger need.


    You know the players in the draft better then I do, I did not hear you say, we passed on a guy that could have come in and pushed Hall for his job and would have been a stud. If Spencer was on the board and we passed on him.

    I again say, the draft for me would have been awesome if we traded back up and got Spencer. Rams front office is content with DE’s Hall and Victor.


    However, if Hall gets injured, it would be a lot better to have another defensive end capable of helping out rather than trying to shift Carriker over from defensive tackle. Can we at least agree on that?
    I agree...

    That being said, I’m sure you would agree that if SJ went down, we are better off to at least have Leonard as opposed to what we have with out him…
    Last edited by Rambos; -05-02-2007 at 06:50 PM.

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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Leonard is capable of doing many things, I agree. But unless he replaces Steven Jackson as the starting tailback, then he is by definition a back-up on the depth chart. Maybe he offers you more than your typical back-up, but he's a back-up nonetheless.

    That doesn't mean we won't find ways to use him, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not in the starting line-up, and because of it, no matter how much we use him he's probably not going to see as many plays as a full-time starter would.

    Would the Rams have been better served overall as a team by going Carriker-Crowder/Abiamiri-Hunt in the first three rounds? Only time will tell. As I said earlier, the great thing is I think we'll still be served well with the guys we did pick, so perhaps the entire debate is of little real importance.
    Let me start off by saying I'm a Jet fan and originally came here to research a mock where I had the Rams. I like the people and the draft talk and Nick's analysis in particular, so I stuck around. I can appreciate your desire to get more d line help, but I don't think your characterization of Leonard as a backup tailback is even remotely fair. First of all, like many I believe he is an NFL fullback and will eventually start for the Rams at FB. Second of all, most people here were looking for a pass rush specialist, that is also a "part-time" position. In today's NFL, I think you rate value differently than just starter-backup and it's quite possible that even if you define Leonard as a "backup" he will spend many more plays on the field than some starters.

    I like Kalil and Abiamiri, but Tony Hunt? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not a big fan.

  4. #19
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    If I had to choose between a back up DE that will play part time and be here in the future. Or the Leonard pick. I will take the pick. I’m sure the DE could help the team this year. I just think Leonard fills a bigger need.
    That's fine. But personally, I'll take the guy that could develop into a starting player over a guy who, though I like, is never going to be that feature starting back for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    That being said, I’m sure you would agree that if SJ went down, we are better off to at least have Leonard as opposed to what we have with out him…
    We won't know that until we see how all of these running backs do.

    I'm sure the Cardinals thought they were better off in 2005 having selected JJ Arrington over Frank Gore. The Panthers probably thought the same thing after taking Eric Shelton over Marion Barber. In 2004, the Patriots probably had Cedric Cobbs higher than Michael Turner on their big board as well. Whoops!

    The point is talented productive running backs don't have to be taken early; you can find them in the later rounds. When you factor in what we're looking for - a situational player who can spell our starter, not be our starter - I don't see the urgency to spend a second round pick on the position when we could potentially add a starter elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator View Post
    I can appreciate your desire to get more d line help, but I don't think your characterization of Leonard as a backup tailback is even remotely fair.
    How so? Is Leonard a starter? No. Then what does that make him? A back-up. Not trying to be blunt here, but what would you prefer he be called if you don't think "back-up" is a fair way of defining someone who is #2 on the depth chart @ RB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator View Post
    Second of all, most people here were looking for a pass rush specialist, that is also a "part-time" position.
    If the player stays as a pass-rush specialist for us and is never anything more, then yes that would be a part time position.

    But as I've been saying in multiple responses now, the defensive end you take in round two contributes immediate as a pass rush specialist while developing into a future starter. After all, Leonard Little (33 this year) and James Hall (30) aren't going to be around forever. Both could conceivably be gone in two seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator View Post
    In today's NFL, I think you rate value differently than just starter-backup and it's quite possible that even if you define Leonard as a "backup" he will spend many more plays on the field than some starters.
    I have a pretty hard time believing that a #2 running back is going to spend more time on the field for us than a starting defensive end or center for that matter. You might have to provide some support for this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator View Post
    I like Kalil and Abiamiri, but Tony Hunt? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not a big fan.
    The point is in round two you get either a potential starter at center or defensive end while still getting that powerful north-south runner who can contribute as a receiver or a blocker in round three. Tony Hunt wasn't rated as highly on my board as Leonard, but the idea is that while you're giving up some talent at your #2 running back position, you're gaining quite a bit at DE where we drafted no one.

    Just as an aside, I'm glad to see that you stuck around even though you're a Jets fan. We really do enjoy hearing from fans of all teams here at the Clan, and hopefully this won't be a temporary visit.
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  5. #20
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    I think the Leonard pick definitely gives Linehan options offensively in regard to having both Jackson and Leonard in the backfield, I-formation will be much more dangerous...However, I do agree with Nick, that we should've went defense and got a D-end. But, we got what we got, and fortunately we really did pick up a lot of talent in the RB/FB position and if anything will help Jackson with the load significantly. At the rate Jackson was going last year, he wouldn't be in the NFL for that much longer, so it probably is a good thing that we got a back that will take the load/pressure off of Jackson for at least a few plays.


    Always and Forever a fan of the St. Louis Rams

  6. #21
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    We won't know that until we see how all of these running backs do.
    Then you will have to trust me, we are better I have seen the other guys numbers, No too good.

    The point is talented productive running backs don't have to be taken early; you can find them in the later rounds. When you factor in what we're looking for - a situational player who can spell our starter, not be our starter - I don't see the urgency to spend a second round pick on the position when we could potentially add a starter elsewhere.
    You just can't let it go... Leaonard is goimg to be used more the a 4th round RB. He is what Linehan wanted, because we drafted him. He is the guy for his offense and he took him.

    Bottom line is you don't like the pick, and thats fine. Only time will tell if Linehan and the Rams are right or you. I hope the Rams got it right personally.

  7. #22
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    well, i think we made a wrong pick here, we could have landed tim crowder, or even rufus alexander in the 5th, we passed rufus up 3 times. we need to take advantage of that kind of situation. he was a projected top 15 pick last year, and if he had played a little better this past year he would have been. even ryan kahlil was available, and we all know how good Chuck Berry's training Is!!

  8. #23
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Then you will have to trust me, we are better I have seen the other guys numbers, No too good.
    By numbers, do you mean stats? Because I believe J.J. Arrington had 2,000+ rushing yards in his final year of college. He hasn't exactly blown the roof off of the Cardinals since becoming a pro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Bottom line is you don't like the pick
    Have you been reading my posts, Rambos? Because if you have been, then I don't think you would have concluded that I don't like the pick at all. Just in this thread alone, I've said...

    "Doesn't mean I think we blew it"
    "The great thing is, though, even if we disagree, it doesn't change the fact that we got a great prospect. So agree or disagree, we still won out in terms of adding a quality player."
    "Drafting Leonard was a solid move, and my point has never been that it was a horrible one but simply perhaps not the best one we could have made."
    "I like the addition of Leonard..."
    "As I said earlier, the great thing is I think we'll still be served well with the guys we did pick..."
    The pick was fine, we've added a talented prospect at a spot he was projected to go. I just think we could have done better in terms of addressing other important needs by going a different direction, a direction that still would have allowed us to add a second running back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Only time will tell if Linehan and the Rams are right or you. I hope the Rams got it right personally.
    As do I.
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  9. #24
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    As far as the second round pick issue goes, last year one side of the ball had a total NFL rank of 6th while the other side had a total NFL rank of 23rd, and a very scary 31st in a specific area of concern. Seems like pretty easy math to me.

  10. #25
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Round 2: Brian Leonard
    Optimists: He's the perfect compliment for Steven Jackson and can contribute on special teams as well.
    Pessimists: The Rams reached in the second round and passed on much better players.
    Consensus: He's a very good prospect, but somewhat of a luxury pick with good OL and DE on the board.
    I think that is a fair assessment of what I think was the worst pick in the draft. That being said, Leonard might have been the best pure athlete in the draft at that point. Linehan may have thought that he was to good to pass. But he is definitely a luxury pick on maybe the most luxeriuos offense in the NFL. Still wish we would have taken Tank Tyler.

  11. #26
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    That's fine. But personally, I'll take the guy that could develop into a starting player over a guy who, though I like, is never going to be that feature starting back for us.



    We won't know that until we see how all of these running backs do.

    I'm sure the Cardinals thought they were better off in 2005 having selected JJ Arrington over Frank Gore. The Panthers probably thought the same thing after taking Eric Shelton over Marion Barber. In 2004, the Patriots probably had Cedric Cobbs higher than Michael Turner on their big board as well. Whoops!

    The point is talented productive running backs don't have to be taken early; you can find them in the later rounds. When you factor in what we're looking for - a situational player who can spell our starter, not be our starter - I don't see the urgency to spend a second round pick on the position when we could potentially add a starter elsewhere.



    How so? Is Leonard a starter? No. Then what does that make him? A back-up. Not trying to be blunt here, but what would you prefer he be called if you don't think "back-up" is a fair way of defining someone who is #2 on the depth chart @ RB?



    If the player stays as a pass-rush specialist for us and is never anything more, then yes that would be a part time position.

    But as I've been saying in multiple responses now, the defensive end you take in round two contributes immediate as a pass rush specialist while developing into a future starter. After all, Leonard Little (33 this year) and James Hall (30) aren't going to be around forever. Both could conceivably be gone in two seasons.



    I have a pretty hard time believing that a #2 running back is going to spend more time on the field for us than a starting defensive end or center for that matter. You might have to provide some support for this one.



    The point is in round two you get either a potential starter at center or defensive end while still getting that powerful north-south runner who can contribute as a receiver or a blocker in round three. Tony Hunt wasn't rated as highly on my board as Leonard, but the idea is that while you're giving up some talent at your #2 running back position, you're gaining quite a bit at DE where we drafted no one.

    Just as an aside, I'm glad to see that you stuck around even though you're a Jets fan. We really do enjoy hearing from fans of all teams here at the Clan, and hopefully this won't be a temporary visit.

    I'll stick around. I'm really not that interested in the NFC west, but I like the draft/FA chatter. Sometimes I think I enjoy training camp more than the season, but that could be because I'm a Jet fan.

    Nick, I am saying that Leonard will be your starting FB. That is a starter, just as much as a DE or a C. Maybe not this year, but soon. At least as fast as you'll be replacing C or DE. I believe that Leonard will give you an extra dimension catching passes out of the backfield that a creative coach with other weapons could really use. The downside is that he might be a tweener, too small for a proper FB and not good enough to be an all-around starter at RB, but I think he'll be very good.

    You can catch lightning in a bottle with late/UDFA rbs, like Denver, or you can end up with a whole bunch of garbage. After a season of watching undersized Leon Washington, Barlow, Blaylock and Cedric Houston, I can tell you that there is plenty of garbage playing RB.

    If you feel this way about the Leonard pick, then you'd have hated the Jets draft. They basically traded away all their picks for Revis and Harris. Personally, I'd rather have guys I could count on and shuffle to fill a spot than have a crap shoot at more than one slot.

  12. #27
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    By numbers, do you mean stats? Because I believe J.J. Arrington had 2,000+ rushing yards in his final year of college. He hasn't exactly blown the roof off of the Cardinals since becoming a pro.
    Forget get about JJ or that fact that Leonard maybe a bust. I already know that Minor is weak. Just look at his number over six years.

    2001 Miami Dolphins 16 0 59 281 4.8 56 2 2 12
    2002 Miami Dolphins 16 0 44 180 4.1 23 2 1 10
    2003 Miami Dolphins 16 0 41 193 4.7 26 1 1 13
    2004 Miami Dolphins 11 4 109 388 3.6 34 3 2 21
    2005 Miami Dolphins 16 0 5 17 3.4 9 0 0 0
    2006 Miami Dolphins 16 0 19 74 3.9 9 0 0 3
    TOTAL 91 4 277 1133 4.1 56 8 6 59





    Have you been reading my posts, Rambos?
    Sure I have you just said
    That's fine. But personally, I'll take the guy that could develop into a starting player over a guy who, though I like, is never going to be that feature starting back for us.


    What I have been reading is, you like the player just not the pick. If you wanted to take a DE, as you have stated you don't like the pick. Right?

    I said you don't like the pick, not you don't like the player.


    Read my post...

    Bottom line is you don't like the pick
    I know you have stated that Leonard is a soild player many times. I never at any time said you don't like the player.

  13. #28
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    One consensus is clear:

    Leonard is the most controversial pick among Rams fans.

  14. #29
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    One consensus is clear:

    Leonard is the most controversial pick among Rams fans.
    We have a B I N G O

  15. #30
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    Re: My Read On The Consensus Opinions on the Rams' Picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator View Post
    Nick, I am saying that Leonard will be your starting FB.
    That remains to be seen. Linehan is on record saying he's the #2 tailback right now, and who knows if he eventually moves to fullback permanently or not? I think it's premature to say that he's definitely going to be a fullback.

    Besides, even if he becomes a starter at fullback, he's still going to be on the field less than a starting center or a starting defensive end. The center will be on the field for every offensive snap. The end might get subbed out occasionally but IMO is still on the field a majority of the time. Meanwhile, according to ESPN's splits for Jackson, only half of his carries in 2006 were in an I-formation or split backfield set. The percentage of Bulger's pass attempts in those same formations was much lower.

    You're simply not going to use a starting fullback as much, so I'm still not sure how you can realistically say a starting FB or a #2 RB is going to be on the field as much as if not more than a starting center or defensive end. Again, I'm going to have to see something to support that claim if you want me to buy into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Forget get about JJ or that fact that Leonard maybe a bust. I already know that Minor is weak. Just look at his number over six years.
    Yes, I agree that Minor does not have the résumé you look for in a primary back-up. Which is why I wanted to see us draft a RB at some point last weekend. My point has never been that we were fine at RB and didn't need to draft one at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Sure I have you just said
    ...and I don't see any part of that quote where I said "I don't like the pick."

    Meanwhile, this quote from the top of the thread's second page...

    "Drafting Leonard was a solid move, and my point has never been that it was a horrible one but simply perhaps not the best one we could have made."
    ...pretty much sums up my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    If you wanted to take a DE, as you have stated you don't like the pick. Right?
    I don't know why you're painting this as a very strict black and white issue. It's not as simple as either you like it or you don't.

    There were numerous draft day scenarios I would have liked, but obviously I like some of them more than others. Just like there are numerous draft day scenarios I would have disliked, and some I would have disliked more than others.

    I like what we did in the draft, but I think we could have done better. Just because we didn't do exactly what I wanted us to do doesn't mean I don't like what we did.
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