Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 35

Thread: No Suh for you!

  1. #16
    Warner4prez's Avatar
    Warner4prez is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    North Dakota
    Age
    28
    Posts
    468
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Dilfer and Brad Johnson are pretty much the text book definition of average QB. They made the superbowl based on the strenght of their respective defenses and ran offenses probably more vanilla than the show Pat Shurmur is putting on this year.

    Tampa's DT that season, Warren Sapp, is a guy that has been used to compare to Suh...he raked in 7.5 sacks that season (plus 2 picks?!). I'd draft that.


  2. #17
    Major30's Avatar
    Major30 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    california
    Posts
    48
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Is Bradford too fragile? (Reconstructed throwing shoulder) Has Clausen won any big game? Are either of these guys as prolific as an Aikman, Elway, or even a Brees when they came out of college, or are we looking at Jamarcus Russel, Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith? Suh is absolutely dominant, take him. We can't rebuild this thing in a year, but we should start with a solid foundation.

  3. #18
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,531
    Rep Power
    144

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Super Bowl winners. Trend here?



    1993 Cowboys - Aikman
    1994 Cowboys - Aikman
    1995 ***** - Young
    1996 Cowboys - Aikman
    1997 Packers - Favre
    1998 Broncos - Elway
    1999 Broncos - Elway
    2000 Rams - Warner
    2001 Ravens - Dilfer
    2002 Patriots - Brady
    2003 Bucs - Brad Johnson (22TDs, 6 picks)
    2004 Patriots - Brady
    2005 Patriots - Brady
    2006 Steelers - Ben R
    2007 Colts - Manning
    2008 Giants - Manning
    2009 Steelers - BenR

    You tell me an *average* QB can take this team somewhere.
    Let's take a look at this. Here we have the last 17 Super Bowl winners. The QBs involved represent 7 first round picks, a 2nd rounder, a 6th rounder, a 9th rounder, and an undrafted guy (what was his name again?) from the past 27 drafts.

    So the past 27 first rounds have yielded only 7 Super Bowl winners. So barring the fact that football is the ultimate team sport (hence the reason Dilfer and Johnson have a ring), the average is for 1 QB in roughly every 4 first rounds will yield a Super Bowl winner.

    With that in mind, I have to ask..........what is it about Bradford/Clausen that leads you to believe one of them is that "1 in 4 years"?

    So among Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Ryan, Flacco, Russell, and Quinn, either Bradford or Clausen is the ONE that rises above?

    Just seems like that's a big set of dice to be rolling when a closer to sure thing is sitting there for the taking.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #19
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,290
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Who says there will be a QB in the 2nd?
    Who says someone will offer us a "a helluva deal in this bidding war for Suh?"

    Who says we can get two first rounders for our pick?

    You seem to point out the uncertainty in a passer being there in the second round, but it's just as uncertain that a team will be willing to shell out incredible compensation for the chance to draft Suh. Especially given the huge contract that comes with that pick.

    Quoting Vic Carucci in an article for NFL.com last April...

    A.J. Smith, GM of the San Diego Chargers, describes the chore of trying to deal the top overall choice as "impossible." And this is from someone who was actually part of the only two trades involving that pick in the last eight years.
    It's just not very likely to happen with the money that's involved. The fact that there does appear to be a top guy who is worth the pick helps, but this potentially being the last draft without a rookie wage scale doesn't.

    Plus, you also have to think, how far down can the Rams drop in a trade scenario before they lose a shot at Clausen or Bradford? Those two guys could be gone by pick six, seven, or eight. So now we're talking about a limited number of trade partners given your goal of moving down and still getting a top QB.

    All of those teams are looking to rebuild as well, will they shell out a lot of picks and hinder their ability to add more talent for the opportunity to get Suh? I just don't think the chances are very good of the Rams getting a mega-deal for that pick. And if I'm passing up on Suh, I want a mega-deal in exchange for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Suh is the best player. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Lets make the most of the first overall.
    There are plenty who would argue that the best way to make the most out of the pick is by taking the clear-cut best player in the draft.

  5. #20
    Varg6's Avatar
    Varg6 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    3,612
    Rep Power
    43

    Re: No Suh for you!

    I could understand this argument if the best player available in the draft was a running back because we already have an elite RB but that's not the case. The BPA this year is a position of need for the Rams.


    Always and Forever a fan of the St. Louis Rams

  6. #21
    THOLTFAN81's Avatar
    THOLTFAN81 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,938
    Rep Power
    25

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Who says there will be a QB in the 2nd? We thought Freeman would fall and the Bucs took him in the late first round.

    Suh is the best player. Period. Everyone wants him, which is why we capitalize, pick up another first rounder to move back a few picks, and we get a quarterback early. I can't take another season of garbage offense and a "stopgap" at quarterback.

    So we get Vick and don't make the playoffs. We wait for Locker or whoever the supposed franchise guy is next year.

    So we get Campbell and don't make the playoffs. We wait for Locker or whoever the supposed franchise guy is next year.

    So we get Pennington and don't make the playoffs. We wait for Locker or whoever the supposed franchise guy is next year.

    Then what? We rebuild around a rookie quarterback NEXT year and extend this project?

    Lets make the most of the first overall. We will get a helluva deal in this bidding war for Suh, and Clausen or Bradford are the overwhelming favorites as best quarterback. We need to fill more holes than DT, and all of you know that. Suh isn't going to make this defense a perennial powerhouse, just like Glenn Dorsey (or Jimmy Kennedy, or Ryan, or Carriker, or Long or any of these superstar DLineman have) did.

    Do you guys remember the hype around Chris Long? Dorsey? Any of these guys aforementioned? Suh is the best, clearly, among these guys. We know that. But I would rather roll the dice on a franchise QB, get extra picks and probably ANOTHER first rounder for next year to move back.

    Done.

    Adios
    Kind of funny you only mention bust DTs in your post...not the Albert Haynesworth and the Haloti Ngatas.

  7. #22
    Dominating D's Avatar
    Dominating D is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    829
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: No Suh for you!

    I can't take another season of garbage offense and a "stopgap" at quarterback.

    If we draft a rookie QB then you expect better results next year. I think history will support inconsitent play out of the rookie QB.

    You tell me an *average* QB can take this team somewhere. Suh can't make our QB any better, and he damned well isn't going to magically pick the defense up and make us playoff bound

    Yes you provided the evidence with your list

    2001 Ravens - Dilfer
    2003 Bucs - Brad Johnson (22TDs, 6 picks)

    Average QB's with dominating D's

    Past year rookie QB's who played well were supported with an outstanding D's
    Ryan
    Flaco
    Big Ben and I am sure we can add to the list if needed

    Everyone in the league would love to have him, but Suh as a DT cannot make the same impact as a franchise, Manning/Brady/Breesesque QB.

    But wait it is well documented that Brady was drafted in the 6th round and just in case you do not know here is were Mr. Brees was drafted and it so happens the Rams have that selection in 2010. He was drafted by the San Diego Chargers in the second round of the 2001 NFL Draft


    Suh can't make our QB any better, and he damned well isn't going to magically pick the defense up and make us playoff bound (like we've predicted with Long, Carriker, blah blah blah)

    I say most of this statement is FALSE

    Yes, a dominate defense can help a QB everyday of the week and twice on sundays. Imagine a great defensive on the field and a great running back. A rookie QB not consider the top of his draft class such as Big Ben behind center giving the ball to Jackson.

    Who's to say if the Rams pick up Vick, Pennington, or Campbell they will not compete for a playoff spot?

    Not sure why some of the clan want Campbell. His strength as a QB does not match the west coast offense. Pennington would be the best selection for the West Coast System.

    Go Rams
    Last edited by Dominating D; -12-24-2009 at 03:14 PM.

  8. #23
    Richbert88's Avatar
    Richbert88 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Northern California
    Age
    47
    Posts
    1,215
    Rep Power
    33

    Re: No Suh for you!

    [QUOTE=peramoure;323724]And seriously, think about it. Chargers and Giants for instance, in the dumps, go get Manning and Rivers. Both are competitors for the superbowl. The quarterback has the ball EVERY play, and Suh might make an impact on 20-30% of plays.
    [QUOTE]

    No, the QB has the ball every play the team is on OFF. Let's estimate that at50% of the time.

    Suh may have the ball carrier in his hands every time the team is on DEF! Let's estimate that at 50% of the time.

    :-)
    Semper Fi!

  9. #24
    BarronWade's Avatar
    BarronWade is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,427
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: No Suh for you!

    How are wegoing 2 trade down?

    someone would have 2 offer us a top 10 pick, 3rd round piick, 1st round pick 2011, average DT and a QB

    then that team would have pay suh a whole lot because suh agent could use the trade 4 momentum in negotiations

  10. #25
    Dominating D's Avatar
    Dominating D is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    829
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: No Suh for you!

    [QUOTE=Richbert88;323786][QUOTE=peramoure;323724]And seriously, think about it. Chargers and Giants for instance, in the dumps, go get Manning and Rivers. Both are competitors for the superbowl. The quarterback has the ball EVERY play, and Suh might make an impact on 20-30% of plays.

    No, the QB has the ball every play the team is on OFF. Let's estimate that at50% of the time.

    Suh may have the ball carrier in his hands every time the team is on DEF! Let's estimate that at 50% of the time.

    :-)
    Is that like saying in their prime that:
    Nolan Ryan has more value than a guy like Barry Bonds
    Would Trent Green have more value than Reggie White
    Vince Young more than Julius Peppers
    Jason Campbell more than Albert Haynesworth

    I am not buying what your selling. You are not comparing apples to apples. If the debate was...... would you take the best prospect DT or QB coming out in over a decade the choice would be easy and clear. Unfortuantly, that is not the dilema the Rams are facing. The dilema is the Rams have a need at QB and should they pass up on maybe one of the best DT prospects to ever come out of college? Lets hope the Rams get this one right.

    Go Rams

  11. #26
    viper's Avatar
    viper is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington
    Age
    53
    Posts
    1,674
    Rep Power
    26

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Best player available, folks. That's how you rebuild a football team. And it just so happens to fill a major need. We haven't had a defensive line that could put pressure on the QB or stop the run since the GSOT days. We need a dominate DT and another DE badly.

    Just say, Suh!

    Go Rams!!!

  12. #27
    peramoure is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    237
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: No Suh for you!

    All in all, this team doesn't have years to "develop" a qb like so many of you advocate. Look at the fallout rate of 2nd-undrafted round quarterbacks. It is insane. You can point to the successful ones, but realistically Brady was developed behind Bledsoe. Romo was devloped behind a ton of QBs too.

    Vikings, with their stellar defense, go from a good team to a great team with Favre. Ravens go from an average team to a team to contend with with Flacco.

    If I said, right now - Browns, Redskins, Bills, or Bucs will give you THIS years first, and NEXT years first, and a second next year, would you do it? Don't say it is unrealistic because the Giants game up more and the Jets did something comparable. We get a high first this year and *2* more top 40 players in the coming years. ALSO we don't spend 50 million dollars on the first overall player. It makes financial sense and it makes sense in that we fill HOLES that we have. DT is not the only hole we have folks! Everyone here is optimistic (and that is great) but 3rd-7th round picks ***WHILE OCCASIONALLY BEING BRILLIANT*** are not all going to come through. There is so much to gain by moving down, as stated above. Merry Christmas Rams brothers and sisters!

  13. #28
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is online now Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,290
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    All in all, this team doesn't have years to "develop" a qb like so many of you advocate. Look at the fallout rate of 2nd-undrafted round quarterbacks. It is insane. You can point to the successful ones, but realistically Brady was developed behind Bledsoe. Romo was devloped behind a ton of QBs too.
    Brady was drafted in the sixth round in 2000, sat for one season behind Bledsoe, and then took over due to injury in 2001. The rest is history. I don't think there are many people who expect a rookie QB to take over as the Week One starter in 2010, especially if that rookie comes from outside the first round. This team doesn't have 5-6 years to develop a passer, but I don't believe it's unreasonable to draft a guy, let him hold the clipboard for a year, and look for him to take the starting reigns in 2011.

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    Vikings, with their stellar defense, go from a good team to a great team with Favre. Ravens go from an average team to a team to contend with with Flacco.
    I think you're oversimplifying the argument here by suggesting the addition of a talented quarterback was some kind of magic bullet for these two teams. I'd bring up a couple of points here...

    1) Favre has clearly been an upgrade to anything the Vikings had at QB, you're not going to get an argument from me about that. But let's not forget this was a 10-win playoff team with Gus Frerotte starting at QB for the majority of 2008; it's not exactly miraculous that a better quarterback has been able to achieve one more win (or potentially three if they win out). The emergence of Sidney Rice and the addition of Percy Harvin have really had an effect on this team as well. Plus, as you mentioned, their stellar defense.

    2) Flacco's impact to the success of the 2008 Ravens, IMO, was pretty minimal. The Ravens boasted a top three defense, and ran the ball nearly 600 times that season. Flacco's performances during the season were pretty inconsistent - good one week, unsatisfactory the next. He had a 50.8 QB rating in the playoffs. I simply don't think the facts support what seems to be your implication that it was Flacco that somehow turned this team around. While Flacco's numbers have improved in his sophomore year in the NFL, his team has seemingly regressed and they may not even make the playoffs depending on how these final two weeks play out.


    Obviously upgrades at the QB position help - upgrading any position would help the Rams right now - but there's more to it than that, and I fear that your simplified statements gloss over those other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    If I said, right now - Browns, Redskins, Bills, or Bucs will give you THIS years first, and NEXT years first, and a second next year, would you do it? Don't say it is unrealistic because the Giants game up more and the Jets did something comparable.
    I don't believe the last statement is accurate. After the Chargers drafted Manning in 2004, who refused to sign with them and thus had to be traded, the Giants gave up their 2004 first round pick (Rivers), their 2004 third-round pick, and their first and fifth round picks in 2005. No second round pick was included in that deal. Assuming the Jets trade you've referenced is their move last year to the fifth overall spot for Mark Sanchez, they traded their 2009 first and second round picks plus some players. The deal did not include a 2010 first overall pick.

    Again, I would cite GM A.J. Smith's quote when discussing the chances of trading the top overall pick. Keep in mind this is coming from a guy who actually did it, and he describes the process as impossible. And the chances have only gotten worse with each year due to the increase in money given out at the top of the draft. I'd also point out that, in both cases you mentioned, the Giants and the Jets were willing to give up these picks in an effort to acquire their "franchise" quarterback. The same was the case for the Falcons in 2001 when they traded up. Do teams still pull the trigger on such a trade when it's for a defensive tackle?

    So, if you told me right now that a team picking in the Top Ten would dish out two first rounders and a second rounder for the top spot, I'd again reiterate that the chances of such a deal being offered are in all likelihood slim to none. If anything, the chances of a solid quarterback being available at the top of the second round are better.

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    DT is not the only hole we have folks!
    Neither is QB, though.


    I'm not sure if there's much left to say on the topic at this point. You seem to have some kind of feeling or inclination that teams are going to be tripping over themselves offering the moon to take this first overall pick. I don't think a mega-deal is coming, at least not one that would be worth passing on Suh for. Ultimately we're going to have to wait until the draft to find out if any team starts throwing around enticing packages, assuming we fans even become privy to that information at all at some point.
    Last edited by Nick; -12-26-2009 at 02:32 AM.

  14. #29
    Richbert88's Avatar
    Richbert88 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Northern California
    Age
    47
    Posts
    1,215
    Rep Power
    33

    Re: No Suh for you!

    [QUOTE=Dominating D;323838][QUOTE=Richbert88;323786]
    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    And seriously, think about it. Chargers and Giants for instance, in the dumps, go get Manning and Rivers. Both are competitors for the superbowl. The quarterback has the ball EVERY play, and Suh might make an impact on 20-30% of plays.


    Is that like saying in their prime that:
    Nolan Ryan has more value than a guy like Barry Bonds
    Would Trent Green have more value than Reggie White
    Vince Young more than Julius Peppers
    Jason Campbell more than Albert Haynesworth

    I am not buying what your selling. You are not comparing apples to apples. If the debate was...... would you take the best prospect DT or QB coming out in over a decade the choice would be easy and clear. Unfortuantly, that is not the dilema the Rams are facing. The dilema is the Rams have a need at QB and should they pass up on maybe one of the best DT prospects to ever come out of college? Lets hope the Rams get this one right.

    Go Rams
    If this is meant for me, lighten up Francis. Not selling anything. BPA!!!
    Semper Fi!

  15. #30
    Goldenfleece's Avatar
    Goldenfleece is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Age
    32
    Posts
    3,586
    Rep Power
    59

    Re: No Suh for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by peramoure View Post
    And seriously, think about it. Chargers and Giants for instance, in the dumps, go get Manning and Rivers. Both are competitors for the superbowl. The quarterback has the ball EVERY play, and Suh might make an impact on 20-30% of plays.

    Super Bowl winners. Trend here?



    1993 Cowboys - Aikman
    1994 Cowboys - Aikman
    1995 ***** - Young
    1996 Cowboys - Aikman
    1997 Packers - Favre
    1998 Broncos - Elway
    1999 Broncos - Elway
    2000 Rams - Warner
    2001 Ravens - Dilfer
    2002 Patriots - Brady
    2003 Bucs - Brad Johnson (22TDs, 6 picks)
    2004 Patriots - Brady
    2005 Patriots - Brady
    2006 Steelers - Ben R
    2007 Colts - Manning
    2008 Giants - Manning
    2009 Steelers - BenR

    You tell me an *average* QB can take this team somewhere. Suh can't make our QB any better, and he damned well isn't going to magically pick the defense up and make us playoff bound (like we've predicted with Long, Carriker, blah blah blah)
    The trend I see there seems to suggest that we should sign Aikman, Elway, or Brady.

    What that list says to me is that maybe drafting a guy who is just the best of his class isn't good enough. If there is a specific guy in this draft we believe to be one of the best of his generation, we don't want to trade down and hope he's available; we take him with the first pick and feel that he is worth every penny. However, if we don't see that guy in this year's draft, the other path to the Super Bowl is to build a defense to rival the Ravens, Steelers, Bucs, etc.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •