The Official 48 Hour Dorsey/Long Debate Thread

[shower beers]

Originally Posted by Goldenfleece

1. Chris Long is a rare kind of defensive lineman who wears the offensive lineman down over the course of the game rather than vice versa and therefore is more likely to make plays late in the game when they matter most.

2. The draft is notoriously difficult to predict, and the defensive tackle position has an unusually high percentage of busts in the first round (it seems like I saw somewhere that only first round receivers have a higher bust percentage).

3. If one player already consistently draws double teams, another player is not going to draw them "better"; either the other team double teams you or they don't (and last year they did because our interior linemen were getting more pressure on the quarterback than the defensive ends were).

4. Both Dorsey and Long faced constant double teams throughout their entire college careers, but compare their stats:

Dorsey (entire 4-year career): 13 sacks, 27 TFL, 7 QB pressures, 4 passes deflected, 1 FF
Long (senior year only): 14 sacks, 19 TFL, 23 QB pressures, 9 passes deflected, 2 FF, 1 interception, 1 blocked kick

5. Long was among the top defensive linemen in most of the Combine drills, whereas none of Dorsey's numbers particularly stand out.

You can't possibly compare DE and DT stats like they're equal. There is much more to the DT position than what the stats show.

[Bar-bq]

Charile Casserly makes the most valid argument I've seen advocating Chris Long on the NFL Network. To paraphrase, he said that end is more valuable than tackle. He said that Carriker can be an effective 4-3 DE in 1st and 2nd down, but is not an elite pass rusher. He posed this question: Is Carriker a number 2 overall DE? If he's not then by logic, DE is the choice. He said you can win with an interior combination of Clifton Ryan and AC.

Here's the link to the video. (Is this allowed?)

NFL Video Galleries

[shower beers]

Originally Posted by Bar-bq

Charile Casserly makes the most valid argument I've seen advocating Chris Long on the NFL Network. To paraphrase, he said that end is more valuable than tackle. He said that Carriker can be an effective 4-3 DE in 1st and 2nd down, but is not an elite pass rusher. He posed this question: Is Carriker a number 2 overall DE? If he's not then by logic, DE is the choice. He said you can win with an interior combination of Clifton Ryan and AC.

Here's the link to the video. (Is this allowed?)

NFL Video Galleries

That poses an excellent question. Would Carriker be an overall no. 2 DE this year or last year? But, that's avoiding one of the crucial points of drafting, in that we should pick a player that will help our team the most, and to help our team be the most successful it can.

Regardless, we WERE NOT winning with a combination of Ryan and AC last year. I know, there's a lot more to the equation than that simple statement, but...

[Bar-bq]

Originally Posted by shower beers

that's avoiding one of the crucial points of drafting, in that we should pick a player that will help our team the most, and to help our team be the most successful it can.

But is that player Dorsey? Do you really believe that displacing Carriker and limiting the play of Ryan, Glover and Wroten is going to be THAT beneficial? Wouldn't it be to our benefit to actually address our key area of concern, rather than attempt a band-aid solution, praying that the adhesive is strong enough?

Originally Posted by shower beers

Regardless, we WERE NOT winning with a combination of Ryan and AC last year. I know, there's a lot more to the equation than that simple statement, but...

You bet there is more to it. The interior combination of Carriker and Ryan was far from the problem, and I'd bet dollars to donuts it can't even be cited legitimately as a top 5 concern last season.

[TheBritishRam]

Originally Posted by RAMarkable

1.) Needs are subject to change at a moments notice. Did you read Jim Thomas' article yesterday? He did a wonderful analysis about the allegedly "deep" Rams DT position. An injury or a suspension can change things muy pronto in the NFL.

Compare the depth at DT to the depth at DE and suddenly the tackle postion looks very deep. Carricker, Glover, Ryan at DT and Little, Hall, Victor at DE and tell me which set looks like it needs more improvement.

[HUbison]

Originally Posted by barbq

If Sapp really was the highest rated player in the draft that year, why in the world would he have been taken Twelfth? It seems to me like a projected #1 prospect would sit somewhere in the vicinity of that pick, if he was passed for Numero Uno.

bar, to answer your question, Sapp dropped because he tested positive for drugs two days before the draft. The "character issue" flag got raised and he slid to Rich McKay and Sam Wyche at #12.

[lostsoul]

Am I the only Gholston fan?
We need a pass rusher, The best pass rusher in the draft is Gholston, The mans a beast.

[Goldenfleece]

Originally Posted by shower beers

You can't possibly compare DE and DT stats like they're equal. There is much more to the DT position than what the stats show.

Well, we're talking about a 3-4 defensive end and a 4-3 "under" tackle. So they are a bit different but still somewhat similar; it's like comparing a 4-3 defensive end with a 3-4 outside linebacker. A 3-technique defensive tackle would line up slightly further inward than a 3-4 end and would occupy one gap whereas the 3-4 end would be a 2 gap position. However, if you compare NFL 4-3 UTs and 3-4 DEs, I'd bet you'd find the numbers to be quite similar.

[smitheRAM]

Does size matter? Just watching the predraft coverage in NY. C Long next to J long looks like his little brother. If CL is not a speed guy then he is going to get eatin up by the big tackles at this level. On the other hand Dorsey is a big man. So based on this scientific study, Dorsey.

[Bald_81]

Originally Posted by smitheRAM

Does size matter? Just watching the predraft coverage in NY. C Long next to J long looks like his little brother. If CL is not a speed guy then he is going to get eatin up by the big tackles at this level. On the other hand Dorsey is a big man. So based on this scientific study, Dorsey.

Jeff Otah, the mammoth OT from Pitt, did just that when Long faced him this year. So I can definitely see where you are coming from.

I have been playing a scenario out in my head and I can see this happening somewhat tomorrow. If the Rams can't muster a trade out of Atlanta, they will stay put and select Dorsey. Once they do, they will call the Falcons and say if they want their man, they have to select Chris Long and relinquish a pick later in the draft in order to complete the deal. If the Falcons don't comply and take the player they want, the Rams would be content with Dorsey since he was #1 on their board and Haslett would be able to do wonders with him. That is a scenario I have played out and I think we could see happen tomorrow. That, or I am just completely wrong.

[prof22693]

Originally Posted by lostsoul

Am I the only Gholston fan?
We need a pass rusher, The best pass rusher in the draft is Gholston, The mans a beast.

Originally Posted by Bar-bq

But is that player Dorsey? Do you really believe that displacing Carriker and limiting the play of Ryan, Glover and Wroten is going to be THAT beneficial? Wouldn't it be to our benefit to actually address our key area of concern, rather than attempt a band-aid solution, praying that the adhesive is strong enough?

Originally Posted by smitheRAM

Does size matter? Just watching the predraft coverage in NY. C Long next to J long looks like his little brother. If CL is not a speed guy then he is going to get eatin up by the big tackles at this level. On the other hand Dorsey is a big man. So based on this scientific study, Dorsey.

I think the real debate is Long or Gholston. Bar-bq makes a good point, and also when he cited the NFL video (which I also watched beforehand). We NEED a pass rusher, and I think Carriker/Ryan is a great combo. If we have Carriker jump ship to DE, our DT quality goes down and we are taking a chance with Carriker, who is not a speed-rushing guy. This is why I think Gholston would be great, as pointed out by lostsoul. SmitheRam made a great point with the size issue as Bald_81 also expanded on for Long. Though Long may not have the speed, he may be a great disruptor. Chris Long appears better against the run and may be able to break up plays in the backfield. All these users make great points; the way I see it though is that we need a DE for the various reasons stated before me by several posters. A tandem of C. Long/Gholston with Carriker and Ryan inside and Leonard Little on the other side would be GREAT. Quality DEs are hard to come by in this league and I personally think we have some great tackle prospects at the moment. DEs also are quite pricy. The drop off in DE talent in the draft may prove to be significant, and while I am content with our current DTs, we can always bolster the ranks in the late rounds. We don't want to look back years ago, overpaying for a mediocore DE, when we could have selected Chris Long or Vernon Gholston. With that in mind, I believe our main focus should be on these two players and I think the FO would be making a serious mistake by taking Gholston out of the equation, and that too much attention has been given to Dorsey. As pointed out by many of the analysts on the NFL Net, Linehan and the FO appear split over this decision as we are. We will get a great player in the end, though I won't be very happy if it is not a DE. Then again much of this may be smokescreen anyhow.

[AvengerRam]

DE Leonard Little
UT Adam Carriker
NT Clifton Ryan
DE Chris Long

Sounds good to me!

[Bar-bq]

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

DE Leonard Little
UT Adam Carriker
NT Clifton Ryan
DE Chris Long

Sounds good to me!

Or is it?

DE Leonard Little
UT Glenn Dorsey
NT Clifton Ryan
DE Adam Carriker

OR

DE Leonard Little
UT Adam Carriker
NT Clifton Ryan
DE Vernon Gholston

OR

DE Leonard Little
UT Glenn Dorsey
NT Adam Carriker
DE James Hall

OR

DE Leonard Little
UT Glenn Dorsey
NT Adam Carriker
DE Quentin Groves

OR

DE Adam Carriker
UT Adam Carriker
NT Adam Carriker
DE Adam Carriker

Personally, I prefer the last option. If he's that versatile that we can compromise his playing time at his best position and still have a smooth transition, it's probably useless having him play only one position.

[39thebeast]

Originally Posted by 39thebeast

Dorsey makes everyone around him better like Michael Jordan. Yes Michael Jordan. He wasn't asked to get sacks he was asked to take up blockers and make the guys around him better and still got 7 sacks. He'll give us a dynamic duo on the inside and use Carriker's versatility to the fullest. Tyson Jackson, Kirsten Pittman, Al Woods all average guys who are taken to an above average lvl becuase of Dorsey. Jackson 295 not extremely fast and still getting sacks kinda like a guy we have.

What was this guy thinking. Michael Jordan thats a whole other sport. Chris Long is a beast strong fast great technique, leverage, use of hands, character and leadership. If we can pick up a young DE later in the draft like Trevor Scott or Curtis Johnson and develop into a good player we can form a 2000 version of dare i say it the "fearsome foursome"