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  1. #16
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Gates did a lot for the chargers, but they dont have our wide receivers. Davis may be the greatest tight end in the history of the game, but what we need is DEFENSE. I agree he would make our offense better, but its an incremental upgrade issue based on the balance of improving the entire team. We have plenty of weapons on offense and we still need major work on defense. Acceptable pick if he falls to 11, but what this team needs if it wants a chance to win is more defense, not more weapons on offense.

    Big red man, i have a lot of respect for you and your views, but there is only one ball on the field and we have plenty of open receivers. When you watched the rams last year, week after week, did you ever come to the conclusion that "gee if we just had a tight end like gates we would be in the playoffs" or did you have the same feeling every week of "why can we never stop the run or rush the qb/"

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  2. #17
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    My first choice would be to move up and get Hawk or Huff. I don't think we can get near Mario and Hawk may be too expensive as well. I would still be ecstatic to get Huff!

    Bunkley would be an intriguing pick due to his versatility in the 4-3 or the 3-4. I really do want to see us play some 3-4 this year. If not Bunkley, then I'd like to see us trade down. We still have a big hole at SLB. The best of the remaining SLB's will come before we select in the 2nd round. I don't want to miss out on them unless we have a great value in the 1st.

    I can't wait!!!

  3. #18
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
    Vernon Davis is overrated. If you look at Tight Ends and where they are drafted and their corresponding performance, it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to take Davis.

    Firstly, every personnel director will tell you that Tight End is one position that can be solidified in rounds 3-7. Some of the best Tight Ends come later. Davis just doesn't make sense especially for the Rams that have already commited major bucks to that Position with Manu.
    I'm just going to discharge this post because obviously you haven't watched anything or read anything about Vernon Davis in my opinion. There is NO way Vernon Davis is overrated. He is clearly the most physically gifted player in the draft in my opinion.

    Vernon Davis aka "The Duke" is 6'3" ... 263lbs. He runs a 4.38 !!!! I'll retype it so you don't think I accidently put 4.38 instead of 4.83. Vernon Davis a 6'3" 263lbs Tight End runs a 4.38!!!!!!! Do you not know that is Defensive Back speed? Wide Reciever speed? Running Back Speed? There is not ONE Linebacker in the NFL that could keep up with him. Our offensive unit would be hands down the best offense on paper if we got him.

    Torry Holt ... The best WR in the NFL. Not one NFL DB can cover Torry "Big Game" Holt. You almost need to Triple Cover him to shut him down.

    Isaas Bruce/Kevin Curtis - Best 2nd/3rd String Wide Receivers in the game. You need to almost Double Cover Bruce at his age. Curtis is fast as heck. So look at it this way.


    TE Davis
    T Pace
    G Terrel
    C Mccollum
    G Incognito
    T Barron

    WR Holt
    WR Bruce
    WR Curtis

    QB Bulger
    RB Jackson

    ^^^^^^
    If you did that in a Single Back Set making it look like

    TE Davis T Pace G Terrell C Mccollum G Incognito T Barron WR HOlt WR Bruce WR Curtis

    You need to Double Cover Holt with 2 DBs, Single Cover Bruce/Curtis which eliminates the DBs. Then you'll almost need to stick to LBs on Davis leaving One LB to stop the Run with 4 Down Lineman. If we did that Jackson would have a field day and would have a Great season. If you don't want to run you could pass the ball every play and still get 5 yards each play. There would be no way to stop our Offense taking us back to the Good ol' days. Greatest Show on Turf.

    Davis would be the perfect fit for us hands down.
    RamsFan16

  4. #19
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel
    Big red man, i have a lot of respect for you and your views, but there is only one ball on the field and we have plenty of open receivers. When you watched the rams last year, week after week, did you ever come to the conclusion that "gee if we just had a tight end like gates we would be in the playoffs" or did you have the same feeling every week of "why can we never stop the run or rush the qb/"
    Thanks for the respect, and I have the same for you. When I watched the Rams last year, sure I was concerned with the team's inability to stop the run or pressure the QB...however...let's not lose sight of the fact the Marmie, I believe, was more of a handicap than the players on defense. His predictable schemes, and inability to adjust were greater hindrances to our success defensively, than any weakness in skill by position. Secondly, our wide outs were hampered with cover two and double coverage due to our zero threat at tight end, and lack of flexibility by Martz to update his offensive scheme in relation to releasing our backs into the secondary. I just believe with our acquisitions in free agency on defense, and what can be had in a very deep field of defensive talent in this draft, our best bet is get Vernon Davis. His skills are dramatically greater than the next best TE in the draft.
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  5. #20
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    I think I would lose my lunch if we drafted any offensive player in the first!

    Retool the defense and the O-line in that order.

    VD=8-8 MH=9-7 AH=10-6

    I have absolutely no facts to back up the statement above.

  6. #21
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by badmoforamfan
    I think I would lose my lunch if we drafted any offensive player in the first!
    Retool the defense and the O-line in that order.
    VD=8-8 MH=9-7 AH=10-6
    I have absolutely no facts to back up the statement above.
    I love you man!!!!
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  7. #22
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by badmoforamfan
    I think I would lose my lunch if we drafted any offensive player in the first!

    Retool the defense and the O-line in that order.

    VD=8-8 MH=9-7 AH=10-6

    I have absolutely no facts to back up the statement above.
    No facts but:

    Vernon Davis = 8 - 8 record?

    Michael Huff = 9 - 7 record?

    A.J Hawk = 10 - 6 record?

    You have to back that up. I smell bust on A.J Hawk, its just me though. Vernon Davis is worth trading up for. Ernie Sims, Bobby Carpenter and Chad Greenway are worth trading Down for.

    VD would do so much damage for us next year that it isn't even funny. PLUS Linehan wants to use a Tight End more in our offense. VD has breakaway speed man, if he touchs that ball he is gone down field right away. There is no player like Vernon Davis in the draft buddy.
    RamsFan16

  8. #23
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman
    OVERATED?
    Consider that he's being talked about as a potential selection to the Jets at fourth overall, and to my knowledge that would be the highest a tight end has ever been drafted (only three in the last quarter century have gone in the top ten as well).

    Also consider comments by people like RF16, who claim that Davis could step on the field right now and be a top five tight end in this league, if not the best already, despite having played not one down of professional football.

    Based on that kind of information, then yes I think he's a bit overrated.

    I feel he's a top ten prospect, but I have him ranked right around the 7-8 area. And there's a big difference between 7-8 and top four or five, especially if teams are passing over guys like Mario Williams, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, and A.J. Hawk to take him.

    Here's a great point made by one NFL scout about Davis:

    “(Maryland TE) Vernon Davis is not dumb when you are talking to him — he just does not have a good base of football knowledge or really understand how to convert routes. … There’s a big difference between scouting and looking at numbers (production, height, weight and speed). Davis may have better numbers than (Jeremy) Shockey and (Kellen) Winslow (Jr.), but he is not nearly as refined of a pass catcher as either were coming out. Go back and watch Davis and show me one catch he makes where he does not have to stop to bring in the ball. No one can deny his physical ability, but he’s got a lot of work cut out for him.”
    I think people see Davis, they see his production as a junior, and they see his measurables, and are already planning their Hall of Fame induction ceremonies. Not so fast. Davis has great measurables, but he lacks experience at the position and has a lot of growing left to do. Will he make those strides? He's going to have to if he wants to be a legitimate top tight end in this league. Keep in mind the NFL is different from college football in VERY big ways. In college football, being an amazing athlete is often times enough to allow you to dominate your competition. In the NFL, the vast majority of athletes are very, very good, so athletic ability alone is not going to equate to success.

    Furthermore, of the three tight ends in the last 24 years to be drafted top ten, none of them have had much of an impact. Winslow can't stay healthy, Kyle Brady didn't do much of anything, and Rickey Dudley had a few productive years but was more of a journeyman than a superstar. I'm not trying to suggest that Davis will be a bust, but I think it's dangerous when people come off sounding as if this guy (or any player) is a sure-fire elite player.

    Do the Rams need a potentially elite tight end? No, they do not. Often times you'll find the teams that have these tight ends don't have the kind of talent we have offensively in the passing game. Who do the Chargers have at receiver? The Chiefs? The Ravens? The Dolphins? The Giants? Most of them have one pretty good receiver, but certainly don't have two guys who are both among the top in the league (Holt and Bruce) and a third receiver that could be starting for a number of teams around the league (Curtis).

    And finally, look at offensive firepowers like Indianapolis and Kansas City. Have they been unable to get over the hump and win a championship because their top offense isn't as good as it could be, or is it because of other shortcomings in other areas, such as their defenses? Even with injuries to Bulger and Bruce, an average line, and an inconsistent running game, the Rams offense ranked in the top ten of the league. Now imagine what they'd be if the line was consistent, our players were healthy, and the running game was working.

    The idea that we need Vernon Davis to get to the championship just makes little sense to me. I will agree 100% with anyone who says we need an upgrade at tight end, and I'm not going to complain if Davis falls to us and we take him because he's the BPA at that point. But if we need anything that qualifies as "elite" it's elite talent on defense.

    An elite tight end would be great, but do we need it? I don't see how anyone can say we do, and if the Rams sacrifice defensive help by either passing on a defensive stud or trading away a pick to move up and take Davis, it will be frustrating to me.
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  9. #24
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    I do feel that. Not alot of Tight Ends in the NFL have NFL Ready talent like he does. No. 4 to the Jets won't happen but No. 11 to The Rams should and will happen
    RamsFan16

  10. #25
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Do the Rams need a potentially elite tight end? No, they do not. Often times you'll find the teams that have these tight ends don't have the kind of talent we have offensively in the passing game. Who do the Chargers have at receiver? The Chiefs? The Ravens? The Dolphins? The Giants? Most of them have one pretty good receiver, but certainly don't have two guys who are both among the top in the league (Holt and Bruce) and a third receiver that could be starting for a number of teams around the league (Curtis).
    Exactly, and imagine what our offense will be WITH a quality tight end like those teams and our receivers. My god man, can't you see the forest from the trees?

    And finally, look at offensive firepowers like Indianapolis and Kansas City. Have they been unable to get over the hump and win a championship because their top offense isn't as good as it could be, or is it because of other shortcomings in other areas, such as their defenses? Even with injuries to Bulger and Bruce, an average line, and an inconsistent running game, the Rams offense ranked in the top ten of the league. Now imagine what they'd be if the line was consistent, our players were healthy, and the running game was working.
    The contribution of a quality tight end will not only benefit the running game and the offensive line, but it adds an element of worry to defenses across the country that would have to face Holt, Bruce, Curtis, Davis, Faulk, Jackson. The offensive upgrade would be greater than getting Huff or Hawk on defense as opposed to a slightly lesser (on paper) defensive player in the second and third round.

    BTW...the scout's report on Davis is one of many that I've seen. They are just as diverse as the opinions on any other player projected in the first ten picks.

    Your point of view is valid...just not enough to convince me (which is no big deal).
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  11. #26
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16
    I do feel that. Not alot of Tight Ends in the NFL have NFL Ready talent like he does.
    I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with this more. There is absolutely no way I see a rookie coming into the league having not played one down of pro football and automatically being in the top five at his position. I don't care what kind of talent he has - he has to prove it on NFL fields before you can rank him at that level.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman
    My god man, can't you see the forest from the trees?
    Considering I'm thinking about the entire team and not just the offensive unit, yes I believe I can see the entire forest.

    And what I see is an offensive unit that despite problems remained one of the best in the league and a defense that was one of the worst in the league and even when completely healthy needs more talent.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman
    The contribution of a quality tight end will not only benefit the running game and the offensive line, but it adds an element of worry to defenses across the country that would have to face Holt, Bruce, Curtis, Davis, Faulk, Jackson.
    Thank you for illustrating my point - the Rams need a quality tight end, but do not need an elite one. An elite one would be great, but my point is and continues to be that a player of that caliber at that position is not a need but a luxury. And believe it or not, there are quality tight ends in this draft that don't have the last name "Davis."
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  12. #27
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    You say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with this more. There is absolutely no way I see a rookie coming into the league having not played one down of pro football and automatically being in the top five at his position. I don't care what kind of talent he has - he has to prove it on NFL fields before you can rank him at that level.
    but then say:
    Thank you for illustrating my point - the Rams need a quality tight end, but do not need an elite one. An elite one would be great, but my point is and continues to be that a player of that caliber at that position is not a need but a luxury. And believe it or not, there are quality tight ends in this draft that don't have the last name "Davis."
    I'm confused. You try to convince us that there's no way he can be considered a top five TE in the NFL (which I would consider to be one of the elite), but then acknowledge in a backhanded way we don't need an "elite" TE such as Davis, but only a quality one. Then again, am I not saying the saying the same thing that we don't need an elite defensive player such as Huff or Hawk, but a quality one that can be found in the second and third round. Ahhhhh.....phylosophy of the gridiron can separate the men from the boys, or make wondering idiots of us all. Maybe the Rams will settle this for us, or go in a direction that will never resolve this dispute. This is fun all the same.
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  13. #28
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    CB... DT... or LB please...

    TE can wait until the 2nd round.

  14. #29
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel

    ...I dont see why our 1 and 2 would get us to 5 where green bay picks, given that green bay apparantly turned down two 1's from denver. I dont think this is a question of math on the chart, i think green bay is locked in on the impact linebacker that they need, aj hawk...
    i don't see the packers FO trading with us mainly because we're most likely too far down the pecking order for them to trade down and still get an impact player that they covet...i see them contemplating 2 to 4 slots down...

    in terms of salary figures of a #5 and a #11 pick, last years rookies carnell williams and demarcus ware signed a 5 yrs/19 mil (15 guaranteed) and 6/13 (8 guaranteed) respectively...

    unless zygmunt is absolutely convinced that the player at #5 is a can't-miss type, i don't see how he'll okay the move up...

  15. #30
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    Re: Rams considering trading into the top five?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman
    I'm confused. You try to convince us that there's no way he can be considered a top five TE in the NFL (which I would consider to be one of the elite), but then acknowledge in a backhanded way we don't need an "elite" TE such as Davis, but only a quality one.
    What are you confused about? My point was there's no way you can consider him a top five tight end before he ever steps on the pro field, not that he'd never reach that status in his career. I think he has the potential to be an elite player at his position, but there's no way you put him on that level before he ever plays a down, which is what RF16 was doing in the post I was responding to. Hope that clarifies.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman
    Then again, am I not saying the saying the same thing that we don't need an elite defensive player such as Huff or Hawk, but a quality one that can be found in the second and third round.
    Yes, I believe that's what you're saying. But I completely disagree. In my opinion, when you have a unit that ranks as one of the worst in the league, you need as much talent as you can get. When you have a unit that ranks near the top of the league, you don't need to make additional sacrifices in order to bring in the most talented players for that unit.
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