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Thread: Rams Offseason

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by RamJackson39
    5 1/2 sacks in the last three games. I'll take that production from a first year starter and a guy who has played the position for only a few years.
    I suppose that makes sense if you ignore the fact that we played Philadelphia, San Francisco, and an indifferent Dallas team. It also probably doesn't matter that we started blitzing on nearly every down by the end of the season to artificially create a pass rush that was absent in the other 13 games.

    Bottom line -- Hargrove did well in those three games and was man handled in the other thirteen. He doesn't understand where he is supposed to be in backside pursuit, he's not better than average against the run (that's being generous, IMO), and his pass rushing skills only showed up in a handful of games. I don't see a whole lot to be excited about here.

    And, without a pass rush, nothing else we do on defense is going to matter.


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    Re: Rams Offseason

    I never saw Hargrove get manhandled. He has a great motor and did a nice job in a few games creating pressure. Pressure does not always translate into sacks, instead it can translate into costly mistakes by the offense resulting in turnovers.

    Yes, those last few games came against weaker opponents. Philidalphia's O-Line isnt bad though. San Fran is, but the continued pressure from Hargrove proved that he was progressing nicely. The Dallas game, dont give me any crap about them not caring. No matter what happens off the field, it doesnt matter once you step onto the field. Parcell's can make all of the excuses that he wants, but the fact is that on the field of play, his team got beat badly.

    Yes we blitzed much more. Attacking defenses are succesful in the NFL. It takes pressure off of the DE's and allows them to focus mainly on the rush. You give Hargrove another offseason at the position, I think he'll be a force and he showed me enough at the end of the season.
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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by RamJackson39
    I never saw Hargrove get manhandled. He has a great motor and did a nice job in a few games creating pressure. Pressure does not always translate into sacks, instead it can translate into costly mistakes by the offense resulting in turnovers.
    That's fine except we rarely had any pressure on the QB. On top of that, we couldn't even stop the run let alone slow it down at the point of attack. I saw Hargrove get manhandled a lot, but his bigger problem is a lack of smarts/instincts. I suppose he might get better there, but if Bryce Fischer had still been in St. Louis Hargrove wouldn't have gotten 1/10th of the time he got this year. Again, the bottom line is that he was barely average this year, if that.

    The Dallas game, dont give me any crap about them not caring. No matter what happens off the field, it doesnt matter once you step onto the field. Parcell's can make all of the excuses that he wants, but the fact is that on the field of play, his team got beat badly.
    You might not give a crap, but it's still relevant to the discussion. If Hargrove had had his best games aginst Seattle, Washington, and Dallas you'd have a point. But he didn't. He had his best games against two teams that were far out of the playoff race (using backup running backs and quarterbacks I might add) and a Dallas team that came out flat. All we learned is that he does well when the circumstances are extremely favorable. That's fine, but if we go into next season relying on the circumstances to always be right for us to get plays on the line, we'll get torched again.

    You give Hargrove another offseason at the position, I think he'll be a force and he showed me enough at the end of the season.
    I understand what you said, I'm disagreeing. I'm terribly impressed by guys that suddenly figure out how to play at the last minute when they realize they might be out of job real soon. You'd better believe Haslett will be arguing for some new defensive linemen.

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    That's fine except we rarely had any pressure on the QB. On top of that, we couldn't even stop the run let alone slow it down at the point of attack. I saw Hargrove get manhandled a lot, but his bigger problem is a lack of smarts/instincts. I suppose he might get better there, but if Bryce Fischer had still been in St. Louis Hargrove wouldn't have gotten 1/10th of the time he got this year. Again, the bottom line is that he was barely average this year, if that.
    You brought up Haslett later on. I personally beieve that Marmie had a lot to do with everything wrong with that defense. When Vitt took over, Hargrove and Little both seemed to wake up and become more of a force in the game.

    Hargrove is a young player. He has a good backup in Green in case he doesnt live up to his potential, but you have to have patience for that potential to pan out.
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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by RamJackson39
    When Vitt took over, Hargrove and Little both seemed to wake up and become more of a force in the game.
    I agree that Marmie had a huge negative impact on the defense. No one who watched the immediate step back we took after he came on board could sensibly say something different. That doesn't explain why Hargrove couldn't tackle anyone at the line of scrimage or why he was frequently caught in overpursuit.

    And you've based your argument about Hargrove on the last three games. Vitt was HC long before those three and Hargrove didn't look any better in those than he did at the beginning of the season.

    Hargrove is a young player. He has a good backup in Green in case he doesnt live up to his potential, but you have to have patience for that potential to pan out.
    Green is a motor/energy guy who will never be anything but a spot player and back-up. I like him, but he is what he is. I don't see why we need to be patient with Hargrove because he's young. Besides this is the NFL where everyone can compete immediately. Too much patience can destroy a franchise (remember, the Browns were patient with Tim Couch).

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    But not enough patience can be deadly. See Steve Young with Tampa Bay. I say you give Hargrove one more year. He had bright spots and low spots during the season.

    He was caught in over pursuit because he is young. You have to play the game a little bit longer before everything runs smooth like that. I mean, look at Julius Peppers. Where is this guy during the first 8 games? I cant find him anywhere. He comes on at the end of the season though as he becomes more intune with the game. Mainly because he's a young player and needs to develop a little more. I feel the same way with Hargrove. I expect a huge season from him next year.
    The Roman and The Prince. Playmakers until the end.


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    Re: Rams Offseason

    hargrove has tremendous potential and will improve this season...well he'd better

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Please never mention Hargrove and Peppers in the same sentence. Even if its not a direct comparison, it does nothing but underscore how little Hargrove has accomplished.

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy
    Please never mention Hargrove and Peppers in the same sentence. Even if its not a direct comparison, it does nothing but underscore how little Hargrove has accomplished.
    If I were Peppers I would certainly hope there is a difference between him and Hargrove. Peppers was the #2 pick in the 2002 draft after a full college career, has 4 years of pro experience and is 26 years old. Hargrove was the #91 pick in the 2004 draft after 1.5 years of college ball, has 2 years of pro experience and is 22 years old.

    Saying that Hargrove hasn't accomplished what Peppers has to this point is not necessarily a reason to look down on him.

    I must have said this a 1000 times, but I'll make it 1001.....Hargrove is 22 years old! This isn't some guy who's been around forever and just never got better. People his age are still playing college ball, and some of us try to compare him to All-Pro ends?

    He will get better, he is nowhere near his prime yet, and won't be for half a decade!
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Did I say that he was comparing Peppers and Hargrove? No. I said mentioning them in the same breath underscores how little Hargrove had accomplished. And after his second year in the league, Peppers was twice the player Hargrove was.

    He'll definitely improve. No quibbles here. Is he starter material? He has yet to prove it. I can't believe how many of folks want us to improve the defense, but then stick up for a player who will "definitely improve." You know how you improve? You go out and get players who do more than demonstrate potential. This ain't college recruiting, its the pros.

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    okay Chiguy, go out there with that unlimited pocket book and bring in every good player we need to fix our defense. And don't worry about that silly salary cap, nobody will notice if we have to go over a little.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    And after his second year in the league, Peppers was twice the player Hargrove was.
    I should certainly hope so. A 24-year-old, 2-year starter, #2 pick should be better than a 22-year-old, 1-year starter, #91 pick after two years.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    Wow, try to follow along. Hargrove hasn't been good except for three games against bad/unmotivated teams. As a result, I think DE is a greater need than a lot of other positions (e.g., I don't know why everyone thinks we're so short on CBs). Thus, it should be a focus of our draft and/or FA strategy. No where on this board have I ever suggested overspending for FAs or any of that stuff you just accused me of.

    I also would hope Peppers is better than Hargrove after two years in the league. That's not point. (So you're either intentionally being obtuse or you're not reading, because I refuse to believe you're not capable. Let me know which one it is.)

    But just because a guy is 22 doesn't mean anything other than he is young. Plenty of 22 year old football players come into the NFL ready to play and they don't have the benefit of two years of experience. (Peppers was a whole lot better -- not a little better, a whole lot better -- in his first year than Hargrove was in his second. Maybe he's just not as talented...which is my point...he's not proven he's got starter's talent.)

    Maybe the point is you just don't like people disagreeing with you. If so, I can mosey along to another board. I get enough Kool-Aid drinkers at the KU board.

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    I've said the same thing since the day I came on this board -- an improved pass rush will make our CBs look a whole lot better; linemen who can fight off blocks will help our LBs too. Feel free to disagree, but no one can tell me we had a good defensive line last year without me laughing in their face. The sacks and rush yards simply show otherwise.

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    Re: Rams Offseason

    I don't know why everyone thinks we're so short on CBs
    Are you serious?
    No where on this board have I ever suggested overspending for FAs or any of that stuff you just accused me of.
    The salary cap, while complex, is simple in its essence.....you can't spend more than the cap allows. We have a lot of money tied up in offense with limited funds to go towards FA defenders. We have to replace both DTs, 1 or 2 LBs, and both safeties (unless you want Furrey to start again). That doesn't leave a lot of money to throw at a position where we already have returning starters under contract. We may only get improvements at 1 or 2 positions, and DE shouldn't be one of them.
    I also would hope Peppers is better than Hargrove after two years in the league. That's not point. (So you're either intentionally being obtuse or you're not reading, because I refuse to believe you're not capable. Let me know which one it is.)
    I'll ignore your personal attack and just get on to the Peppers/Hargrove issue. Of course, Peppers is better than Hargrove......he certainly better be. You said that mentioning those two together would "it does nothing but underscore how little Hargrove has accomplished." The point is why would we care what Peppers has done. Hargrove hasn't measured up to Peppers, but he shouldn't have to.
    Plenty of 22 year old football players come into the NFL ready to play
    Oh sure, those guys are a dime a dozen.
    Peppers was a whole lot better -- not a little better, a whole lot better -- in his first year than Hargrove was in his second. Maybe he's just not as talented...which is my point...he's not proven he's got starter's talent.)
    Come on, chitown. Does he have to be a "Peppers" in order to be a starter?
    Maybe the point is you just don't like people disagreeing with you. If so, I can mosey along to another board.
    Agree with me, disagree with me.....doesn't matter to me, Dez pays all the same.
    Feel free to disagree, but no one can tell me we had a good defensive line last year without me laughing in their face.
    Nothing about our defense was good last year (or the year before for that matter), but the line was the best unit in our defense last year. Laugh if you want, you have the right. But the matter still stands that our line was better than our backers and our secondary. Sure a pass rush will make corners look better, but cover corners will make a pass rush look better too. A block shedding line will make backers look better at run-stopping, but backers that hit the gaps will make a line look better at run-stopping.

    The bottomline is this: I'm sure we'd all love to replace our D with the best 11 players we could. However, that is just not going to happen. We'll do good to replace the players that are going to leave via FA (we certainly haven't been able to in the past), why would we want to get rid of a young and growing (skills-wise and literally) DE that is still under contract?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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