Rams Offseason

[Hodgins]

Here is what I think we should do. I know you guys are thinking OH NO! but seriously I think this is better.

Rams Free Agents:

C Andy McCollum- already resigned
TE Brandon Manumaleuna- Let go
WR Shaun McDonald- Resign for cheap
WR Kevin Curtis- Resign at all costs but don't go to high
G Tom Nutten- if isn't retiring sign for cheap
OT Rex Tucker- let go
TE Cameron Cleeland- keep at cheap price
QB Jamie Martin- let go
RB Arlen Harris- resign for cheap
RB Aveion Cason- resign for cheap
RB David Allen- already gone
DT Ryan Pickett- Resign at all costs, or Franchise Tag him
CB DeJuan Groce- resign for cheap
S Adam Archuleta- let go. Its time to let Huff in
S Mike Furrey- resign for cheap good ST player
DE Tyoka Jackson- resign for cheap, good leader
DT Damione Lewis- resign for cheap. my find his potential
DE Brandon Green- resign for cheap
LB Trev Faulk- already resigned
CB Corey Ivy- resign for cheap
CB Chris Johnson- resign for cheap. Good KR and good backup CB
CB Terry Fair- let go
P Bryan Barker- if not retiring bring back for cheap
FB Chris Massey- let go
TE Roland Williams- resign for cheap

Draft:
Round 1- Michael Huff S Texas
Round 2- Abdul Hodge LB Iowa
Round 3- Dominque Byrd TE USC
Round 4- Bernard Pollard S Purdue
Round 5- Marvin Philip C California
Round 6- Frostee Rucker DE USC
Round 7- Jay McCareins CB Princeton

Free Agency: Who we should go after, assuming availible
G Steve Hutchinson
CB Nate Clements
CB Ike Taylor
S Chris Hope
LB Andra Davis
FB Nick Luchey
LB Tommy Polley
DE Robert Mathis
LB Jamie Winborn
DE Kyle Vanden Bosch
S Tank Williams
CB Charles Woodson
CB Roderick Hood
CB Will Allen
S Corey Chavous
CB Jerry Azumah
S Terrence Holt
DT Grady Jackson
C Mike Flanagan
DE Aaron Kampman
RB DeShaun Foster
S Idrees Bashir
CB Ricky Manning
LB Sedrick Hodge
DE Darren Howard
DT Chris Hovan

I know I have alot of Free Agents but the odds of them becoming free agents are slim so I through some names out there.

2006 Depth Chart
Offense:
QB Bulger
HB Jackson
FB Hedgecock
WR1 Holt
WR2 Bruce
TE Byrd
LTOrlando Pace
LG Steve Hutchinson
C McCollum/Flanagan
RG Timmerman/Terrel
RT Barron

Defense:
DE Darren Howard
DT Pickett
DT Kennedy
DE Little
OLB Pisa
MLB Hodge
OLB Claiborne
CB Butler/Clemens/Allen
CB Fisher/Bartell/Azumah
S Huff/Carter/Pollard
S Atogwe/Huff

Record Prediction
10-6 ... Make the playoffs


What do you guys think?

only thing I dont like is all the "resign for cheep" guys. they are mostly starters and will want money, I doubt we keep for example damione lewis, tyoka jackson(although im a fan of his) bryan barker, or arlen harris (unless marshall retires because I believe he is justified in wanting to be more then a third stringer. well keep manu as well because of his cap hit. I thought cleeland was already retired? lol

a few guys on your list who I agree we should pursue are chris hope, nate clements, will allen, or ricky manning (not including guys I would love but will likely be resigned.

[chiguy]

Are you serious?

Absolutely, while none of them are All Stars, Fischer and Butler have proven to be good starters. Bartell showed more last year on the field than any other defensive rookie (though people around here are ready to crown Otogwe as a starter after sitting 99% of the time) and didn't embarass himself. Groce and Ivy are competent back-ups. We don't have one top-line player in the CB unit, but we are at least decent at every position there. You can't say that about any other defensive unit on the roster.

The salary cap, while complex, is simple in its essence.....you can't spend more than the cap allows. We have a lot of money tied up in offense with limited funds to go towards FA defenders. We have to replace both DTs, 1 or 2 LBs, and both safeties (unless you want Furrey to start again). That doesn't leave a lot of money to throw at a position where we already have returning starters under contract. We may only get improvements at 1 or 2 positions, and DE shouldn't be one of them.

Thanks Professor, but I understand the cap rules (I've been the one suggesting we shouldn't overpay for Pickett). I never said anywhere that a FA defensive end was a must sign. I've been objecting to people who say that Hargrove is definitely going to improve and has "proven" himself...simply because he is 22 years old. He hasn't done anything except play well in three games; I don't see anything to get all excited about at this point.

That said, if I could get a premium DE at the right price or in the draft...you bet your butt I'd take him. Pass rushers are the gold standard on defense.

I'll ignore your personal attack and just get on to the Peppers/Hargrove issue.

That's a pretty low bar for personal attack. I said you're either being obtuse or misreading me, not that you're stupid or your opinion is without foundation.

Of course, Peppers is better than Hargrove......he certainly better be. You said that mentioning those two together would "it does nothing but underscore how little Hargrove has accomplished."The point is why would we care what Peppers has done.

I'm not the one who brought Peppers into the argument smart guy. But we should care what Peppers has done -- that's what we should want to see from the slot. Sue me, I have high standards.

But let's say that's unrealistic. I have no problem with that. So what should we compare him too? How about the guy he replaced. Hargrove hasn't even lived up to Bryce Fischer. Its ridiculous to suggest that we have no reason to be concerned about Hargrove in any context. He had three great games. He might end up being great in two years. Right now, there is no reason to suggest that will be the case.

Come on, chitown.

Not your fault, but I don't live anywhere near Chicago. Common misperception with this name though.

Does he have to be a "Peppers" in order to be a starter?

Nope. But he probably needs to make tackles consistently against running backs, shed a blocker once in a while, and generate pressure on the QB in games against teams that aren't in the bottom five of the league. Is that really such a nutty standard? Again, I'm not the guy that brought Peppers into this discussion; I simply said that mentioning Peppers (one of the top DEs in the league) does nothing but underscore how little Hargrove has accomplished. And that's precisely what it does.

[quote]Agree with me, disagree with me.....doesn't matter to me, Dez pays all the same. Nothing about our defense was good last year (or the year before for that matter), but the line was the best unit in our defense last year. Laugh if you want, you have the right. But the matter still stands that our line was better than our backers and our secondary.[quote]

I'll let the numbers do the talking. From the NFL's official site:

Rush Defense -- 28th [2178 yards against]
Rush Defense YPC -- 32nd (t) [4.7 yards per carry]
Rush Defense TDs -- 32nd (t) [22]
Sacks -- 8th [41, I'll admit to being surprised by this]*
Pass Defense --23rd [214/g, 3424 yards against]
Completion % Defense -- 26th [62%]
Pass Defense TDs -- 30th [26]

*16 of those came from DEs, 8.5 from DTs, 16.5 from backers and secondary players. So, not as bad as I thought, but remember that 5 or whatever (of Hargroves) came in the last three games when we started blitzing constantly and we played some fairly poor teams.

Clearly, we stunk in both areas of the defensive game. So the question is how can we improve. I submit that the solution is to improve line play. Why? Three reasons. First, the pass game was bad but not as bad as the run game, especially when you consider that our top 3 CBs were out with injury for big chunks of the year and they had no help over the top. Second, we get pressure on the QB (more than I thought), but a lot of it comes from blitzing backers and safeties. I have no problem with that, but relying on the blitz leaves you open to giving up big plays. It would nice to blitz as a change of pace, not as a way to get pressure. Third, an improved line would make all the other units look better. Want your LBs to get better? Put them one-on-one with the running back by having your line command double teams. Want your CBs to look better? Put more consistent pressure on the QB so he has to rush more throws.

Its fine to disagree with this, but I think there is a pretty strong argument that the way to improve the defense is to improve the line play.

Sure a pass rush will make corners look better, but cover corners will make a pass rush look better too. A block shedding line will make backers look better at run-stopping, but backers that hit the gaps will make a line look better at run-stopping.

Well, we had a ton of injuries among the CBs last year and our FA linebackers never saw the field. We know more about the ability of Claiborne, Chillars, Fischer, and Butler than we do about Hargrove. And, quite frankly, I think they've all proven themselves to be better NFL players than Hargrove. So if I want to improve, I'm looking to improve my line. Given the Saints draft history under Haslett, I'm willing to be he sees it the same way.

The bottomline is this: I'm sure we'd all love to replace our D with the best 11 players we could. However, that is just not going to happen.

Never said it would. Never even suggested that was the way to go. So, I'm not sure why this is aimed at me.

We'll do good to replace the players that are going to leave via FA (we certainly haven't been able to in the past), why would we want to get rid of a young and growing (skills-wise and literally) DE that is still under contract?

Who said we should get rid of him? I said we need to upgrade. Hargrove has talent, no doubt. I just doubt he's good enough to give us what we need as a starter. He could probably be very successful as a pass rushing role player, which you definitely need in the NFL to succeed.

[HUbison]

Absolutely, while none of them are All Stars, Fischer and Butler have proven to be good starters. Bartell showed more last year on the field than any other defensive rookie (though people around here are ready to crown Otogwe as a starter after sitting 99% of the time) and didn't embarass himself.

Butler has proven to be a competent cover man, but his play in the run has been suspect. However, if the front 7 are doing their job, our corners shouldn't have to worry about run stopping anyway. And I will whole-heartedly agree with you on Bartell. I think he showed a lot of promise and was IMHO the best defensive rookie we had last year. Fisher, however, hasn't been the same for three seasons now. I just don't know that he is starter material.

Thanks Professor, but I understand the cap rules

Then you are one of only a handful. They're pretty complicated to say the least.

That said, if I could get a premium DE at the right price or in the draft

And that's really the trick, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, I agree, if we could get an Abraham or Kampman or Howard or Kalu for a bargain deal, then sure our FO should snap them up, but I just don't see those guys giving us some kind of bargain deal to be a Ram. Maybe the Haslett connection will help bring over Howard, who knows?

I'm not the one who brought Peppers into the argument smart guy. But we should care what Peppers has done -- that's what we should want to see from the slot. Sue me, I have high standards.

Nah, no need for litigation, too many ambulance chasers in this world anyway (AV and GC excluded, of course). And yes, I know you weren't the first to mention Peppers, but I also think it's unfair to hold up Peppers as the measuring stick for Hargrove. I'm sure we all would want Hargrove to produce like Peppers, but the fact that he doesn't shouldn't be a call for an emergency upgrade just yet.

And, as you said earlier, your issue was with those who say Hargrove has already proven himself. I agree, he hasn't proven anything.....yet. I would argue though that he has more upside than any member of our current defense (outside of Bartell). Has he produced any more than the other members of this defense? No, not really, BUT he is more likely at 22 to keep rising than the rest of this defense with the exception of the young secondary guys we have.

We know more about the ability of Claiborne, Chillars, Fischer, and Butler than we do about Hargrove.

I completely agree. We know more about their abilities and their limitations than we do Hargrove.

And, quite frankly, I think they've all proven themselves to be better NFL players than Hargrove.

Maybe, maybe not. In the past they've shown themselves to be adequate. Claiborne is better than his playing time (or lack thereof) would suggest. Chillar may be starting material at some point. Butler is a solid cover corner, but Fisher has been down-grading for the past two years. But with the exception of Chillar, those guys are in the prime age group (26-28). They're probably not going to get much better than what they are right now. Not that Hargrove IS going to be better than them, but he (and Chillar) has a better chance of improving than any of them.

Who said we should get rid of him? I said we need to upgrade. Hargrove has talent, no doubt. I just doubt he's good enough to give us what we need as a starter. He could probably be very successful as a pass rushing role player, which you definitely need in the NFL to succeed.

Fair enough. Personally, I think he has more upside than any defensive player we have outside of Bartell. IF Hargrove can learn the mental skills needed to be a complete End, I think he could be tremendous. But if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt everytime he jumped.

I guess time will tell.

[serkicker32]

hate to say this but we should be comparing Hargrove to Rucker and Little to Peppers. Hargrove is a complement to Little and same with Rucker to Peppers. Furthermore Peppers and Little are left ends whereas Hargrove and Rucker are right ends.

[chiguy]

When you evaluate your starters, ser, you evaluate them against the best in the league. Not the partner of the best in the league. That said, no one would be having this question if Hargrove were like Rucker. He ain't.

Bison -- Nice, reasoned response. I differ in my opinion on Fischer (partly because he's been forced into the #1 corner role), but I can understand your P.O.V.

[rams_fan81]

Serkicker hate say but the transition from left to right end is really easy, especialy if you were going to a new team with a differet deffensive scheme.

[serkicker32]

you are right rams fan but all I'm try to say is that Little is our top pass rusher and he hasnt put up great numbers for being a number one as well, so why are we just getting on Hargrove?

[rams_fan81]

I agree I think after Little's off field problems are resolved he won't be so distracted and can get to work.

[chiguy]

As mediocre as Little was last year -- and he wasn't himself -- he still had nearly 10 sacks. When you consider that he missed a handful of games (3?) and that teams could basically double team him without worrying about a pass rush up the center or on the right side, that's not a bad sack number.

His play really dropped off in other areas, though. He just wasn't as generally disruptive as he has been in the past. Plus, he got a lot of his sacks in like two or three games.

But, he's proven himself to be a pretty capable player when paired with another decent defensive end (Fisher, Wistrom). And a lot of his problems are off field distractions which, I hope to God, are finally behind him. If he were a free agent, I wouldn't go crazy but he's got a clearly defined value that would make him worth resigning.

But the reason we're on Hargrove is because of something someone said earlier in the thread. Its not as if his name came up at random.

Edit. I went back and looked. RJ39 said that Hargrove was "starting to dominate." I said that was overstatement. Discussion ensued.

[Goldenfleece]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if we landed Hutchinson, but I'd definitely have a back-up plan for the position because the Seahawks will probably find some way to bring him back. I hear Clements is wanting to be paid like the top corner in the league, so I think we'd have to weigh very carefully whether we could get him and address the rest of our needs. I'd be pretty happy if we got the Huff/Hodge/Byrd draft.