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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    I get the Jarvis Jones love, I really do. But just because a doctor "cleared" him doesn't mean he isn't a risk. I'm sure a doctor somewhere will clear someone of anything. Someone probably cleared McNeill and Michael Ivrin too but their careers got cut short.

    As good as he is, if I'm at 16 and I can get a great offensive lineman or a good receiver then I'm passing on Jones and hoping to put more points on the board.


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by DE_Ramfan View Post
    I get the Jarvis Jones love, I really do. But just because a doctor "cleared" him doesn't mean he isn't a risk. I'm sure a doctor somewhere will clear someone of anything. Someone probably cleared McNeill and Michael Ivrin too but their careers got cut short.

    As good as he is, if I'm at 16 and I can get a great offensive lineman or a good receiver then I'm passing on Jones and hoping to put more points on the board.
    If I can get a "great" player than I'd probably pass on Jarvis too. Thing is, I don't see too many players even near his level. If we can get a guy like Chance Warmack or Eric Fisher I'd pass on him no problems. But guys that may be there like D.J Fluker or Matt Elam or even Ertz/Eifert I'd take Jones all day over those guys. Guys I'd be on the fence about would be someone like Dion Jordan, Johnathon Cooper (at 22), some others..

    I'm not attached to Jones, I just like him a lot more than some other guys. But, he was cleared by multiple doctors as well as Georgia's staff and sure as hell didn't seem to have any setbacks or problems making a massive impact (not saying that this injury is irrelevant, but he's looked good thus far).


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    We'll when we blitzed guys like Mikell and Dunbar we sure as hell didn't see a lot of WR's "running free". Also, I'll HAPPILY take a guy like McNeill (who played 82 games and had 2 pro bowl seasons) over the infamous Tye Hill who managed to play 28 games for us.

    My point being is I am not going to pick a guy at #16 that isn't worth taking over a medically cleared Jarvis Jones who could be an all-pro.
    The pass defense was ranked 15th, so somebody was running free. And on a team that has no viable centerfielder (ie. Craig Dahl) you want to commit a LB to pass rushing? On a team where 76% of their sacks were generated by the D-line, not the blitz? The Broncos generated only 40% of their sacks from their D-line.

    Their blitz generated sacks because it had to. They couldn't get pressure with their front four.

    Why devote such a high pick on a health risk when his role will be to do something that the front four is already doing? And will weaken a suspect back 4?
    Also, I'll HAPPILY take a guy like McNeill (who played 82 games and had 2 pro bowl seasons) over the infamous Tye Hill who managed to play 28 games for us.
    I'm sure you would. Fortunately, Fisher and Snead have the ability to find one of the many players available at #16 that will not have the health risks of a McNeill nor the talent void of Hill.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    The pass defense was ranked 15th, so somebody was running free. And on a team that has no viable centerfielder (ie. Craig Dahl) you want to commit a LB to pass rushing? On a team where 76% of their sacks were generated by the D-line, not the blitz? The Broncos generated only 40% of their sacks from their D-line.

    Their blitz generated sacks because it had to. They couldn't get pressure with their front four.

    Why devote such a high pick on a health risk when his role will be to do something that the front four is already doing? And will weaken a suspect back 4?I'm sure you would. Fortunately, Fisher and Snead have the ability to find one of the many players available at #16 that will not have the health risks of a McNeill nor the talent void of Hill.
    There isn't a prospect in the backend that even comes close to Jarvis Jones, so no I probably wouldn't take any of them at 16. I'd consider Dee Milliner and Kenny Vaccaro, but I'd still take a medically cleared Jarvis Jones 100 times over those guys. And blitzing is not the only way for Jarvis to get involved. Great coaches design plays for guys to succeed in. I'm giving you a top 5 talent, you should be able to use him. I'd LOVE to see on many 3rd downs guys like Chris Long, Robert Quinn, Michael Brockers, and Jarvis Jones rush the passer.

    You can never have enough depth. What happens when a guy rolls up on Robert Quinn and tears his ACL and is out for the season? Hayes will cost some good $$ to re-sign, and I sure would NOT feel comfortable with Eugene Sims playing out there. Hayes was in an EXTREMELY limited role and still amassed 7 sacks. A guy like Jarvis Jones (part of our rotation, occassionally slide Long in at DT and put Jones at DE on obvious passing situations) could do wonders and have a massive impact.

    2) " I'm sure you would. Fortunately, Fisher and Snead have the ability to find one of the many players available at #16 that will not have the health risks of a McNeill nor the talent void of Hill."

    Don't be so sure about anything.


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    There isn't a prospect in the backend that even comes close to Jarvis Jones, so no I probably wouldn't take any of them at 16.
    If it's true that nobody available at #16 even comes close to Jarvis Jones, then why would 15 professional staffs pass on him? If he truly is that much better than the other 1st round prospects, what makes you think he would be available at #16, having got past several teams, including 3-4 teams, that can use a pass rusher?
    You can never have enough depth.
    So you're spending the Rams 1st pick on depth?
    " I'm sure you would. Fortunately, Fisher and Snead have the ability to find one of the many players available at #16 that will not have the health risks of a McNeill nor the talent void of Hill."

    Don't be so sure about anything.
    No actually, I'm 100% certain that Fisher and Snead can find a player at 16 that is healthier than McNeill and more talented than Hill.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    If it's true that nobody available at #16 even comes close to Jarvis Jones, then why would 15 professional staffs pass on him? If he truly is that much better than the other 1st round prospects, what makes you think he would be available at #16, having got past several teams, including 3-4 teams, that can use a pass rusher?So you're spending the Rams 1st pick on depth? No actually, I'm 100% certain that Fisher and Snead can find a player at 16 that is healthier than McNeill and more talented than Hill.
    1) That's my opinion. I doubt that he even reaches our pick, this is all hypothetical. The only reason he would reach our pick is due to the spinal stenosis. I don't think he'll drop to our pick (matter of fact I don't think he drops out of the top 10).

    2) No, I'm not spending our first pick on depth, but its another incentive we get for having a guy like Jones. He starts at SLB, and can be moved to DE when we want him there.

    3) I don't really care about this. That's like me saying "I'm 100% sure I need water to live".. Whats your point?


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    1) That's my opinion. I doubt that he even reaches our pick, this is all hypothetical. The only reason he would reach our pick is due to the spinal stenosis. I don't think he'll drop to our pick (matter of fact I don't think he drops out of the top 10).
    So then the only reason he would reach the Rams would be due to the spinal stenosis. So why would the Rams spend their first pick on a player whose health concerns scared away 15 other teams?
    2) No, I'm not spending our first pick on depth, but its another incentive we get for having a guy like Jones. He starts at SLB, and can be moved to DE when we want him there.
    What makes you think so? I've heard no discussion of Jones being a DE. Nor am I all that excited about switching positions with multiple players (as you said, Jones to DE, Long to DT). I'm just not sure a "Madden" technique like that has much success in the NFL.
    3) I don't really care about this. That's like me saying "I'm 100% sure I need water to live".. Whats your point?
    But you do care. You were the one that drew the dichotomy between Marcus McNeill and Tye Hill. As if those were the only two types of players available. My point is that may be how you see the situation, but I am 100% certain that's not how Fisher and Snead see it. THEY have the ability to find a talented player w/o the health baggage of a McNeill.......or even, potentially, Jarvis Jones.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    So then the only reason he would reach the Rams would be due to the spinal stenosis. So why would the Rams spend their first pick on a player whose health concerns scared away 15 other teams?
    What makes you think so? I've heard no discussion of Jones being a DE. Nor am I all that excited about switching positions with multiple players (as you said, Jones to DE, Long to DT). I'm just not sure a "Madden" technique like that has much success in the NFL. But you do care. You were the one that drew the dichotomy between Marcus McNeill and Tye Hill. As if those were the only two types of players available. My point is that may be how you see the situation, but I am 100% certain that's not how Fisher and Snead see it. THEY have the ability to find a talented player w/o the health baggage of a McNeill.......or even, potentially, Jarvis Jones.
    1) Why would the Rams spend their pick on a player (Janoris Jenkins) whose off-the-field issues scared away all 32 teams? I was one of the fans that wanted him pre-draft, and I sure as hell know if I looked back at some posts I could find 10 guys that were scared to death of taking him. I'm pretty sure Snead, Fisher, and fans are damn happy we took that chance.

    2) I didn't say start him as a base DE and keep him there 70 plays a game... I'm saying he plays SLB 2/3 downs and at other times he can convert to a pass rusher just like Von Miller does. Seems to work damn good for him. And madden-esque? Really? Jeff Fisher and Steve Spagnuolo as well as the Giants (just to name a few) certainly seem to agree with me.. Justin Tuck slides in at DE when its an obvious passing situation because they got Umenyiora and JPP outside. Fisher even slid in Sims and Hayes at DT multiple times on passing situations. Matter of fact, if its so "madden like" why would Jeff Fisher at times have Chris Long and Quinn at DE, and Hayes and Sims at DT on some 3rd downs?.........


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    1) Why would the Rams spend their pick on a player (Janoris Jenkins) whose off-the-field issues scared away all 32 teams?
    You will notice it wasn't their 1st round pick, like you're suggesting. Unless you're a SB contender, 1st round picks are not for high risk prospects.
    2) I didn't say start him as a base DE and keep him there 70 plays a game... I'm saying he plays SLB 2/3 downs and at other times he can convert to a pass rusher just like Von Miller does.
    So now Von Miller (who we are to believe is the 1st Coming of Jarvis Jones) is now a part-time DE? Or is he a blitzing 4-3 SAM? Which is it?
    Jeff Fisher and Steve Spagnuolo as well as the Giants (just to name a few) certainly seem to agree with me..
    Do they? So both of them have taken 4-3 SAMs and moved them to DE for 1/3rd of the snaps? Such as....?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You will notice it wasn't their 1st round pick, like you're suggesting. Unless you're a SB contender, 1st round picks are not for high risk prospects.
    So now Von Miller (who we are to believe is the 1st Coming of Jarvis Jones) is now a part-time DE? Or is he a blitzing 4-3 SAM? Which is it?Do they? So both of them have taken 4-3 SAMs and moved them to DE for 1/3rd of the snaps? Such as....?
    1) Jeff Fisher has shown a penchant for drafting players who carry high risk high reward tags. Pacman Jones anyone?

    2) Von Miller is a part time DE. He plays SLB and DE. He is usually rushing the passer on obvious passing situations.

    3) No. If a guy is a pass rusher, he is a pass rusher. I don't care if he's a S, or TE. If the guy is effective as a pass rusher, you'd be wise to place him as a pass rusher on obvious passing situations. If that means playing Jarvis Jones at DE, then so be it. It's not a huge change from standing up anyways.


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Whoever the Rams pick at 16 will have been passed over by 15 other teams. Didn't Snead already say that he would take a DT for depth if he was the best player on their board. Why not a DE for rotation? We just need more TALENT.
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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    1) Jeff Fisher has shown a penchant for drafting players who carry high risk high reward tags. Pacman Jones anyone?
    1 player....whom ultimately failed, by the way. That's a penchant?
    2) Von Miller is a part time DE. He plays SLB and DE. He is usually rushing the passer on obvious passing situations.
    So we have a pair of talented young 4-3 DEs that amassed 22 sacks last year; but you want to displace one of them on obvious passing downs with a converted 3-4 LB who would be putting his hand in the ground as a 4-3 DE for the first time ever?3)
    No. If a guy is a pass rusher, he is a pass rusher. I don't care if he's a S, or TE. If the guy is effective as a pass rusher, you'd be wise to place him as a pass rusher on obvious passing situations. If that means playing Jarvis Jones at DE, then so be it. It's not a huge change from standing up anyways.
    So then you agree your assertion that Fisher and Spags and the Giants turn a lot of 4-3 LBs into part-time DEs on a regular basis was incorrect. As to the new assertion that, while no examples are given, in theory, it shouldn't be a big deal to go from 4-3 LB to 4-3 DE, I'm forced to ask: then why don't teams in the NFL do this? Why don't we see 4-3 LBs moving to the line on 3rd and long?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by fearsome foursome View Post
    Whoever the Rams pick at 16 will have been passed over by 15 other teams. Didn't Snead already say that he would take a DT for depth if he was the best player on their board. Why not a DE for rotation? We just need more TALENT.
    Exactly right. Yes, they will have been passed over by 15 teams. The question becomes, why?

    Is it because there were 15 players that were more talented and/or fit a particular team better? Or because those 15 teams feel the risk on that player is too high to spend their first pick?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    1 player....whom ultimately failed, by the way. That's a penchant?
    So we have a pair of talented young 4-3 DEs that amassed 22 sacks last year; but you want to displace one of them on obvious passing downs with a converted 3-4 LB who would be putting his hand in the ground as a 4-3 DE for the first time ever?3) So then you agree your assertion that Fisher and Spags and the Giants turn a lot of 4-3 LBs into part-time DEs on a regular basis was incorrect. As to the new assertion that, while no examples are given, in theory, it shouldn't be a big deal to go from 4-3 LB to 4-3 DE, I'm forced to ask: then why don't teams in the NFL do this? Why don't we see 4-3 LBs moving to the line on 3rd and long?
    1) No it isn't, but he took chances on guys like Janoris Jenkins, Chris Givens, and Trumaine Johnson, all in one year...

    2) I'm not displacing anything. Chris Long has played DT on pass rushing situations before. Mind you, it's not like he'd be playing there all the time, maybe 10-15% of the time he rushes the passer it'd be coming from the DT position. And there isn't a big difference between being in a 2 point stance or a 3 point stance. There is a reason lots of teams are NOT afraid of switching their defensive schemes from 3-4's to 4-3's and vice versa. Why would the Cowboys who have the best 3-4 OLB (DeMarcus Ware) switch to a 4-3 if they believed that Ware couldn't put his hand in the dirt?..

    3) Acually, no. The Giants DO in fact use Mathias Kiwanuka and Michael Boley as DE's (not often, but they have, especially Kiwanuka). And NFL teams don't do it because 99% of the time your DE is better at rushing the passer than your OLB...


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    Re: Rams picks round 1-3 thoughts

    1) No it isn't, but he took chances on guys like Janoris Jenkins, Chris Givens, and Trumaine Johnson, all in one year...
    And if Jones is there in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round, I wouldn't be nearly as hesitant to take him.
    2) I'm not displacing anything. Chris Long has played DT on pass rushing situations before. Mind you, it's not like he'd be playing there all the time, maybe 10-15% of the time he rushes the passer it'd be coming from the DT position.
    So with Jones moving to the front line on 33% of the plays and Long sliding over to DT on 10-15% of plays, what happens to Long on the other 18-23% of plays with Jones on the line?
    Why would the Cowboys who have the best 3-4 OLB (DeMarcus Ware) switch to a 4-3 if they believed that Ware couldn't put his hand in the dirt?..
    Because he was a 4-3 DE before he was a 3-4 OLB.
    3) Acually, no. The Giants DO in fact use Mathias Kiwanuka and Michael Boley as DE's (not often, but they have, especially Kiwanuka).
    Again, you're talking about former 4-3 DEs.
    And NFL teams don't do it because 99% of the time your DE is better at rushing the passer than your OLB...
    Yes, exactly! This is your best comment in the whole discussion; you've hit on the exact reason the Rams are not going to be as high on Jones as you are. That's one of the main points of a 4-3 defense. The pass rush comes from the line. So as to minimize the 2nd level's exposure.

    A 4-3 OLB whose reason for being is to blitz offers a very limited role and puts a lot of pressure on the rest of the defense. So the question then becomes: is the #16 pick worth a high health risk 3-4 OLB who would have to switch to a 4-3 OLB? On a team with lots of needs OTHER THAN a pass rusher?
    Last edited by HUbison; -02-26-2013 at 02:38 PM.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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