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Thread: Serious Bust Potential

  1. #16
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    And you essentially proved my point as well, considering the only weakness you admitted he had in your response is that he's human.
    What weakness would you like me to acknowledge Nick?


  2. #17
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    What weakness would you like me to acknowledge Nick?
    Any, at this point.

    But to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time taking any opinion seriously when it doesn't acknowledge Clowney's work ethic as a concern or weakness. We've read a variety of people who have been deeply involved in the game, including current and former scouts and GMs, come out and say as much.

    I don't know why fans of Clowney's seem so hesitant to acknowledge work ethic concerns. Acknowledging Clowney's work ethic as a concern doesn't mean you can't still think the world of him as a prospect.
    Last edited by Nick; -02-23-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Any, at this point.
    Well, you know some weaknesses are harder to find than others, but when I come accross one I'll keep you posted.
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  4. #19
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Any, at this point.

    But to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time taking any opinion seriously when it doesn't acknowledge Clowney's work ethic as a concern or weakness. We've read a variety of people who have been deeply involved in the game, including current and former scouts and GMs, come out and say as much.

    I don't know why fans of Clowney's seem so hesitant to acknowledge work ethic concerns. Acknowledging Clowney's work ethic as a concern doesn't mean you can't still think the world of him as a prospect.
    His work ethic is not a concern or weakness to me because I still believe he's the best and most dominant player in the draft, even with the constant negative commentary about his "OK to pretty good" work ethic.

    If I were his agent, I'd just tell him to do whatever it was that made him a household name in the first place.

    When he can no longer consistently whip his man, be a disruptive force, force opposite side runs, force double and triple teams, or keep DCs up at night scheming and gameplanning how to neutralize him, I'll worry about his work ethic. Until then, there is no reason to worry.
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    It's about his speed not his strength.

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    It's about his speed not his strength.

    well

    acceleration x mass= force

    also, did spurrier even define what he meant?

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    All good points but here is what bothers me with Mike Mayock. He said Clowney has Red Flags all over and he scared to death to take him. He trust Sammy Watkins more with a huge contract. He left out the fact that Sammy Watkins was arrested for controlled substance.
    Agree completely here.

    Like I said no team will spend a top pick without making sure he loves football.
    That however is pretty hard to quantify. Lots of top picks over the years that failed because of dedication issues. Really what you are saying is that no team will risk a top pick if they don't believe that the person loves football - in reality, lots of guys have gotten the fat contract and said I got what I wanted out of this. I'll be curious to see if the new rookie contract pay scale produces less busts, because the really huge contract is no longer just handed to someone on a silver platter for their potential.

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time taking any opinion seriously when it doesn't acknowledge Clowney's work ethic as a concern or weakness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    His work ethic is not a concern or weakness to me
    Thanks for saving me some time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    It's about his speed not his strength.
    If you really thought that, then you wouldn't have bothered trying to defend his strength numbers on the first page.

    But this is the typical Clowney defense strategy: throw anything to the wall and hopes something sticks.

    First, his strength numbers are actually fine because they're on par with other outstanding rushers. Then, it's not even about his strength, it's about his speed. Defend or deflect, whatever argument works, I guess.

    Just like the numerous excuses we've heard for his down production in 2013: (1) double teamed, (2) triple teamed, (3) gameplanned against, (4) run away from, (5) victim of quick passing attacks, (6) injured, (7) not injured but playing cautiously for fear of injury. The list goes on, just throw enough out there and hope it sticks.

    Clowney's 40 time was outstanding today, and confirms exactly the kind of physical athlete we all know him to be. But in typical Clowney fashion, he manages to disappoint and raise questions at the same time by skipping field drills.

    Why is that a disappointment?

    Because back in early February, in an appearance on the Dan Patrick Show, when asked point blank if he was fully participating in the Combine, he responded to the female host by saying, "Yes, ma'am." Now, after bailing on the field drills, Clowney claims, "I didn't tell [the teams] I was doing all the field work" and that it was always his plan to skip it and save it for his pro day. HUH?

    What's also noteworthy about that interview as it relates to the Combine is that Clowney claims at the time of that interview (Feb 6th) that he was putting up 22-23 reps of 225 lbs on the bench. Then, over two weeks later, he comes to the Combine and lifts... 21 reps. Did he make no improvements to his strength in the time between the interview and his Combine performance? He clearly thought he was going to, because he said he was shooting for 25 reps. Yet his numbers went down from where he was at then. Nothing to see here, I suppose.

    Clowney supporters have attacked Spurrier for his less than stellar comments about Clowney's work ethic, and have attacked Mayock for his criticisms. I guess Warren Sapp is the next guy with a bullseye on him...

    Sapp was equally adamant that there are issues. He said he had watched Clowney on tape and "I'm ashamed to look at it" and "He ought to be ashamed it's even out there" because of inconsistent play. Sapp said the tape made him question whether Clowney truly "wanted to play this game." Sapp said there was "no aggressiveness, no hunt" from Clowney in a lot of the tape he had seen.
    But what does he know? He's only a Hall of Fame defensive lineman.

    If someone can't acknowledge there are work ethic/intangible issues with Clowney, then they've got blinders on. The fact that this is still being debated is pretty ridiculous when you consider the number of quotes from current and former scouts, GMs, players, and draft analysts.

    It's entirely possible that Jadeveon Clowney is the Randy Moss of the defensive end position, and despite character concerns or questions, still goes on to have one of the best careers ever at his position because he is simply that talented. Even as someone who has been critical of him, I can acknowledge that's certainly possible because he's that physically gifted.

    But THAT'S the argument his proponents need to be making, not trying to reinvent reality by suggesting there isn't a work ethic or motivational issue at all, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    For me, the book is closed on this issue. Moving on...
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    I don't think the QBs will really be "busts" as we usually think of it. They're just not that good. They wouldn't go in the first round if there wasn't such a big need by several teams.

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Clowney has bust written all over him..even his own college coach said hes lazy..wait until he gets paid..

  11. #26
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    As far as Clowney goes, I wonder if it is a case of believing his own hype. Do enough to get people salivating for you and know it will be enough. Have enough people whisper in your ear that you are the best that ever was/is/willbe and you don't have to play as hard mentality which ends up hurting a player, even one as good as Clowney.

    Maybe the case that he is so gifted that he doesn't have to have the motor going 100% like others, who because their 40 times and broad jumps aren't as good, have the lava hot passion for the game which in the end more then makes up for genetics. Which again hurts him way more then the flashes of brillances he shows. Its way better to have teams scared that every down no matter if it is a run away from him, a short pass or whatever that he is going to give the offense nightmares instead of only turning it up when its his time to shine. I believe that is what the more knowledgeable folks then I are afraid of.

    If he had two yrs in a row where he killed it both yrs instead of one, there wouldn't be any doubt, but the fact that he was game planned for and for the most part easily taken care of raises a few questions. I can't say for sure cause I wasn't able to watch the games, but did he make his linemen and LBs better did he make his teammates better because he was so observed, or not?

    Not talking about Clowney specifically here, but a lot of busts come from people getting excited about someone's ability and not realizing how the other teammates contribute to that ability. People went gaga for Trent Richardson, forgetting the fact that Alabama's line was incredible opening grand canyon size holes for him to run through. So to me if a player can perform outstandingly regardless of avg or subavg teammates it will be a better indicator then being on a team that has a ton of superstars and not knowing who is really the best.

    Is Evans really good because Manziel was able to buy time and find him getting good numbers, or vise versa. Is Manziel really good because Evans had a knack for bailing him out making good catches and improvising, or are both of them really good? I'll leave that to the professional scouts :-)

  12. #27
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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Thanks for saving me some time.




    If you really thought that, then you wouldn't have bothered trying to defend his strength numbers on the first page.

    But this is the typical Clowney defense strategy: throw anything to the wall and hopes something sticks.

    First, his strength numbers are actually fine because they're on par with other outstanding rushers. Then, it's not even about his strength, it's about his speed. Defend or deflect, whatever argument works, I guess.

    Just like the numerous excuses we've heard for his down production in 2013: (1) double teamed, (2) triple teamed, (3) gameplanned against, (4) run away from, (5) victim of quick passing attacks, (6) injured, (7) not injured but playing cautiously for fear of injury. The list goes on, just throw enough out there and hope it sticks.

    Clowney's 40 time was outstanding today, and confirms exactly the kind of physical athlete we all know him to be. But in typical Clowney fashion, he manages to disappoint and raise questions at the same time by skipping field drills.

    Why is that a disappointment?

    Because back in early February, in an appearance on the Dan Patrick Show, when asked point blank if he was fully participating in the Combine, he responded to the female host by saying, "Yes, ma'am." Now, after bailing on the field drills, Clowney claims, "I didn't tell [the teams] I was doing all the field work" and that it was always his plan to skip it and save it for his pro day. HUH?

    What's also noteworthy about that interview as it relates to the Combine is that Clowney claims at the time of that interview (Feb 6th) that he was putting up 22-23 reps of 225 lbs on the bench. Then, over two weeks later, he comes to the Combine and lifts... 21 reps. Did he make no improvements to his strength in the time between the interview and his Combine performance? He clearly thought he was going to, because he said he was shooting for 25 reps. Yet his numbers went down from where he was at then. Nothing to see here, I suppose.

    Clowney supporters have attacked Spurrier for his less than stellar comments about Clowney's work ethic, and have attacked Mayock for his criticisms. I guess Warren Sapp is the next guy with a bullseye on him...



    But what does he know? He's only a Hall of Fame defensive lineman.

    If someone can't acknowledge there are work ethic/intangible issues with Clowney, then they've got blinders on. The fact that this is still being debated is pretty ridiculous when you consider the number of quotes from current and former scouts, GMs, players, and draft analysts.

    It's entirely possible that Jadeveon Clowney is the Randy Moss of the defensive end position, and despite character concerns or questions, still goes on to have one of the best careers ever at his position because he is simply that talented. Even as someone who has been critical of him, I can acknowledge that's certainly possible because he's that physically gifted.

    But THAT'S the argument his proponents need to be making, not trying to reinvent reality by suggesting there isn't a work ethic or motivational issue at all, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    For me, the book is closed on this issue. Moving on...
    You are very welcome, and thank you for moving on, this was getting tiresome. But for some reason I believe we're not quite done with this subject yet.

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    Clowney showed up last August relatively out of shape after battling injuries and illness.
    He doesn't have an elite move to get to the passer. Those are the negatives.
    I do know he doesn't take plays off and he's terrific at run defense. I have difficulty linking bad work ethic with not taking plays off and terrific run defense. If this is the bad work ethic and it is linked to Monday-Friday while giving me 100% on Sunday, I wouldn't care about it.


    edit: Spurrier does head games. When Clowney was injured and unable to practice during the week, he bashed Clowney for not playing in a game and questioning his work ethic and commitment. Unfair IMO. Playing while injured doesn't help him or the team.
    Last edited by RebelYell; -02-25-2014 at 01:26 PM.

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    There are plenty of examples of players who had extraordinary tools but, due to a lack of work ethic, failed to meet their potential.

    So, no matter how superior Clowney's athletic abilties might be (and I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that he is an elite athlete), there is reason for concern when reports emerge (I think the most troubling one is Spurrier's comments) that he does not always give 100%.

    At the end of the day, give me a London Fletcher over a Lavar Arrington any day of the week, and thrice on Sunday (or Monday or Thursday night).

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    Re: Serious Bust Potential

    I'm not saying we will draft Clowney. However, if we did I have a hard time believing he would continue to be a slacker with Chris Long and James Lauranitis to answer to. My point is a strong locker room would more likely than not bring this kid around and teach him how to be a true professional. I wouldn't mind at all if it's our locker room that's put to the test.

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