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    Size does matter.

    These two young guys both over 6-1 could be the beginning of a great secondary for years to come. We will need size to deal with AZ and the possibility of facing V. Davis if he goes to the whiners twice a year. This really could be a great pick for us.

    I'm starting to think this is a must pick for us and he will be there.



    Ron Bartell RCB 6-1 208
    Extremely talented and versatile defender…in his four years of collegiate ball, made 226 tackles (157 solos), two sacks for minus 18 yards, three fumble recoveries, four forced fumbles, two interceptions, and 33 passes defensed while starting 38 of 45 games.


    JIMMY WILLIAMS, VIRGINIA TECH
    Positives: Excellent size (6-2 and 216 pounds). … Outstanding speed and change-of-direction skills. … Physical player with considerable strength. … Good hands and a threat to go the distance with every interception. … Could excel at safety, as well as at cornerback.
    Last edited by Rambos; -03-24-2006 at 11:50 PM.


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    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Size does matter.

    It would be a good pick if we've convinced him to play free safety and could get him later than 11th overall. I have serious reservations about his ability to play CB at the next level.
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Nick I can understand that you have your doubts about him at CB. With the size some of these WR, running fades routes to the corner of the end zone and just out jumping the 5-10 DB. We will need some size to match up with these guys, also the larger WR don’t have blazing speed. Worst-case, we draft him and he plays FS and some CB in certain match ups.

    Anquan Boldin Position: WR Height: 6-1 Weight: 220.


    Do you want a JIMMY WILLIAMS 6-2 and pounds on him or a Travis Fisher 5-10 189 216 pounds. I see another six, on a jump ball.

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    Re: Size does matter.

    If Ron Bartell at 6-1 208 can get it done why not JIMMY WILLIAMS 6-2 216.

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    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    With the size some of these WR, running fades routes to the corner of the end zone and just out jumping the 5-10 DB.
    For the record, Williams put up a pretty poor vertical jump of 33 inches at his pro day, so I wouldn't be exceptionally confident in his ability to dominate jump ball match-ups.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    Do you want a JIMMY WILLIAMS 6-2 and pounds on him or a Travis Fisher 5-10 189 216 pounds. I see another six, on a jump ball.
    I want a guy who will be able to cover him, regardless of height. Jimmy Williams has great size, but his inconsistent and has really fallen out of favor with a lot of analysts since the college football season. You don't need to be 6'1" or taller to cover NFL receivers. Guys like Ronde Barber, Dre Bly, Champ Bailey, and Antoine Winfield are some of the best corners in the league and don't have great size. But they can cover.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    If Ron Bartell at 6-1 208 can get it done why not JIMMY WILLIAMS 6-2 216.
    Just because two guys are of similar size doesn't mean they should both be able to do the same things. You have to look at the individual cases. Williams did not impress in his senior season, has come off as cocky and arrogant in his interviews, and disappointed at his pro day. There's buzz that he may fall out of the first round, and while I don't believe that, I don't think he's an elite CB prospect in this draft.

    Furthermore, I think Rams fans overexaggerate how much Bartell has "got done" thus far. He showed some flashes of being able to develop into a good starter last year, but I think he still has a little way's to go, and I certainly think fans are making a pretty decent leap of faith by penciling him in as a 2006 starter already. I'd prefer to wait and see how he does in camp and in the pre-season. Let's not forget that Bartell played small school football, and while no one is questioning his physical abilities, he needs to show that he's mentally ready for the job.
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    Re: Size does matter.

    I'd take Jimmy no problem. I'd take him over Tye Hill!
    RamsFan16

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    Re: Size does matter.

    Any reason to support that? His stock is falling pretty quickly right now. As I stated, there's some buzz that he may fall out of the first round. He's no longer the consensus best CB prospect, and is certainly not a better safety prospect than Mike Huff right now. Don't underestimate how much Williams' attitude may have turned him off to coaches. His interviews at the combine were pretty bad in the sense that he came across pretty poorly.
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    Re: Size does matter.

    I want a guy who will be able to cover him, regardless of height.
    Yeah I want a guy that can cover too, that goes without saying, it canít hurt to be able to cover and have the size to laid the wood, wrap up a TE, bring down a RB on and island.

    For the record, Williams put up a pretty poor vertical jump of 33 inches at his pro day, so I wouldn't be exceptionally confident in his ability to dominate jump ball match-ups.
    I would still prefer his size to that of a shorter DB regardless off his pro day.

    You don't need to be 6'1" or taller to cover NFL receivers.
    Canít hurt to have the size these WR are getting bigger every year. You donít have to have it but itís nice when you do. Iím only 5í9 by the way.


    Just because two guys are of similar size doesn't mean they should both be able to do the same things. You have to look at the individual cases.
    I agree, some comments on Jimmy ď- Jimmy is regarded as one of the top cornerbacks in the nation. He switched over to cornerback from safety following his sophomore season and never missed a beat. Excelling at both positions he is a very physical gifted athlete. Has a lot of experience. Lead the ACC in interceptions last season with 5. Has great size and outstanding speed. Hits and tackles well. You will not see him miss many tackles. Has good technique. Wraps up and is physical enough to battle anyone on the field. Very active player who is very fundamentally sound on both pass coverage and his tackling. Takes pride in his game. Turns his hips well and closes on the ball well. Jams his man at the line. He gives WR's a fit. Makes plays all over the field. A hustle player.Ē

    ď- You will not find many DB's better than Williams in college football. He is a smart and savvy player who has all the physical tools to succeed at the NFL level. He should be a high draft selection, good chance he may even be the top DB taken.Ē

    Here is the thing; if he does not make it at CB he plays Safety. What happens if he can play CB, at the next level, he would be a stud.


    Furthermore, I think Rams fans overexaggerate how much Bartell has "got done" thus far.
    He is only in his second year, if he gets better this year and Jimmy show he can play, this could be the begging of a beautiful friendship.


    All this talk about Jimmy this started running through my head..



    The guys play a game of basketball with "the Jimmy," a man who talks about himself in the third person. Jimmy sells odd shaped training shoes and George is an interested investor. Fresh from the gym, he attends a Yankees meeting about thefts, during which he sweats profusely. Jerry goes to the dental office and discovers they now carry Penthouse in the waiting room. Elaine gets tickets to a benefit for the AMCA (Able Mentally Challenged Adults) featuring Mel Torme, the "Velvet Fog." Elaine tries to meet a handsome guy at the gym, but instead talks with "the Jimmy," who makes the date for himself. On a follow-up visit to the dental office, Jerry feels the dentist and his hygienist may have lived out a fantasy during his time in the chair, the type of thing you might read in Penthouse. Kramer has a visit to the dentist complete with Novocain, later while wearing a pair of Jimmy's shoes, winds up getting a him a seat at the main table of the benefit.LOL LOL LOL

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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    I would still prefer his size to that of a shorter DB regardless off his pro day.
    I wouldn't. Size is great, but you've also got to show the skills and the ability to play the position. After his pro day and a subpar senior season, there are serious and legit questions as to whether Williams has what it takes to be a great NFL cornerback.

    Essentially, Michael Huff now is what Jimmy Williams was a couple of months ago. Williams was projected as a potential top five pick back in the fall while Huff was a late first rounder, and really their roles have just about reversed. Huff is a top ten prospect while Williams is falling to the latter half of the first.

    If there's a guy out there like Tye Hill who may be shorter than Williams but is clearly a better cover man with better physical skills, I would take him instead.

    The more I think about Jimmy Williams, the more I'm starting to wonder if he's the next Mike Rumph. Coming out in 2002, Rumph was seen as a tall cornerback prospect (6'2" 205 pounds) with the speed to stay with receivers, fluid in his turns, and good at press coverage, all like Williams. And like Williams, not the strongest of tacklers or zone defenders.

    The bottom line is you really don't see a lot of cornerbacks with Williams' size playing at an elite level in the NFL. In fact, I don't think I can think of one elite NFL cornerback that's 6'2" or taller. Most of them are anywhere between 5'10" and 6'0".


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    I agree, some comments on Jimmy
    Here are some other comments on Jimmy:

    "Williamsís stock is in a freefall"

    "He takes risks and is undisciplined, and he shows poor work habits and questionable character."

    "The good news is the '06 cornerback class is not deep, likely limiting Williams' fall to the middle of Day 1."

    "Williams no longer is the No. 1 cornerback. And he certainly isn't the No. 1 safety."

    Great Seinfeld reference, by the way.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Nick no one is projecting if these guys coming out are going to be great HOF type player, you hope the can be productive at the next level.

    So he may have had a poor pro day and maybe his senior year wasn’t all that, but he did play well enough to be projected as one of the best CB coming out. So he did not play so bad the he fell off the radar. Skills? “Excelling at both positions he is a very physical gifted athlete. Has a lot of experience. Lead the ACC in interceptions last season with 5. Has great size and outstanding speed. Hits and tackles well.”

    He has the skills does he have the discipline? He will be a rookie, he will be playing with guys like Glover, Little, Witherspoon, Glover and Chavous. He will get some real quick.

    The bottom line is you really don't see a lot of cornerbacks with Williams' size playing at an elite level in the NFL.
    Yeah I agree with this statement 100%, in the future you will see guys just like him. Athletes just get bigger, fast, and taller every year. See V Davis, just set record a this years combine. He becomes the prototype, once he gets on the field and starts making plays.

    "Williams’s stock is in a freefall"
    I don’t think he was never a top 5 guy, he was always 8-15, if he falls into the second round I will be shocked and he will play like a man possessed.

    "He takes risks and is undisciplined, and he shows poor work habits and questionable character."
    As for the undisciplined play he will be coached up he just a rookie and character, well I know of one Ram that the same thing was said about per draft, Tino.

    "The good news is the '06 cornerback class is not deep, likely limiting Williams' fall to the middle of Day 1."
    For all the comments about the guy does not have the skills, mid day one tells me he has the skills.


    "Williams no longer is the No. 1 cornerback. And he certainly isn't the No. 1 safety."
    That might be true as far as the experts projected, but this has no barring on who will be the best, see Joe Montana I think he was a 6th or 7th round pick not projected by the experts to be the best.

    Great Seinfeld reference, by the way.

    I did not use the name Jimmy once until now…

    With the 11th pick we are no mans land, yeah I would like to trade down and not have to reach with this pick. Yeah I would like to trade up and get a guy that everyone is touting as the next great player. But we are stuck at 11 and it’s might look like a reach who ever we take. I don’t care what the experts say I just want the guy to be productive. D Lewis was the first guy we took and on that day the experts said he would be great, the second first round pick Pickett and the experts “Mel” on that day he is a bit of a reach, due to age and strength. Pickett was the player when all said and done; my point is on paper they look one way on the field is another, only time will tell. We really don’t know until they play.


    Here is a question for you Nick, Bartell was a 2nd Round pick do you think Jimmy will not be at least as good as Bartell?

    And I know Bartell is not a great CB, he has great upside at this point.

  11. #11
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    As for the undisciplined play he will be coached up he just a rookie and character, well I know of one Ram that the same thing was said about per draft, Tino.
    Did Tino's scouting report say he had poor work habits, was arrogant, and questionable character as well?

    It's one thing if a guy is undisciplined but has the work ethic and character to work toward being better. All indications is that Williams already thinks he's great, and will likely not respond well to anyone saying he isn't.

    There's a reason that it's being reported his interviews with teams were lousy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    I donít care what the experts say I just want the guy to be productive.
    Which is why I'm confused that you're advocating for a guy who has serious question marks around him in terms of how productive he can be at CB at the next level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    Here is a question for you Nick, Bartell was a 2nd Round pick do you think Jimmy will not be at least as good as Bartell?
    But how good is Bartell? We have no idea. Again, he's shown flashes, but how can you compare Williams with how good Bartell is when Bartell's barely done anything?

    I don't think Williams is going to come to the NFL and struggle, but I don't think he's going to be as great as the comments you posted (which I suspect aren't entirely recent) would lead someone to believe.

    You claim that Williams is a new breed of athlete, but I disagree. The comparison to Vernon Davis is not a strong one, because Vernon Davis came out and performed at a high level. He showed amazing speed combined with good strength.

    Williams, the new breed of tall cornerback which we've actually already seen not work in the NFL, came out and disappointed. He has very questionable character concerns that are turning teams off as quickly as you could a light switch, and he's not even balancing those concerns out with great workouts or a great senior season.

    And why is a poor senior season important? Because Williams has only played two seasons at cornerback. If half the time he's played at a position has left something to be desired, it's a bit concerning.
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Did Tino's scouting report say he had poor work habits, was arrogant, and questionable character as well?
    No Tino has some character problem in his past when he was younger. Most these guys are very young and some have some growing up too do no doubt. It sounds like you really don’t want Jimmy due to his attitude more then he’s game. He I never waned Turely even if he could help us, I would never take a TO for the same reasons.

    All indications is that Williams already thinks he's great, and will likely not respond well to anyone saying he isn't.
    I would like to see that documentation,, that would really get me off the guy, do you have those?

    Which is why I'm confused that you're advocating for a guy who has serious question marks around him in terms of how productive he can be at CB at the next level.
    The guy will be productive; he may not be the next MJ as far as commercial appeal for advertising goes. Heck as much as I like Little he is not a model citizen but that’s another story. There are a lot of spinning going on right now about all of the draft picks, we saw V. Young get hit on his test scores, your going to hear some good and bad over the next few weeks. I’m sure of these poster boys aren’t exactly squeaky clean, and I’m not saying he does not deserve the negative press he’s getting. He has not got arrested, he has not flunked out of school, and he’s a bit cocky, brash and full of himself. You have you have confidence in your game and he does.

    But how good is Bartell?

    Second year guy with upside that’s my take on Bartell, when he played he was not getting burned at the stake on the field. If he gets better he will be fine, how good he gets only time will tell, he will have an opportunity in the new scheme to shine we will see.

  13. #13
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    It sounds like you really donít want Jimmy due to his attitude more then heís game.
    Attitude's a big part of it, but I also have serious questions about his game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    I would like to see that documentation,, that would really get me off the guy, do you have those?
    I've posted the information regarding how his interviews were very bad, how he turned people off at the combine with his arrogance, and how some coaching staffs have removed him from their draft board completely. All this is from The Sporting News, so I don't know how much more you're looking for.
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Itís all good Nick; heís not my first choice, Huff was but he will be long gone at 11. Iím preparing myself for what might be. Only time will tell. I now will follow this guy closer then I would have if we donít draft him maybe your right and he does not produce at the next level.

    I have not had this much fun on the board since TX was trying to convince me that Warner had nothing left in the tanks.

    I still think we will see taller DB, in the future to match up with these WR . Hopefully we have one in Bartell.

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    Re: Size does matter.

    Williams is being projected as a BETTER SAFETY.

    There is a question as to whether Jimmy Williams can make it as a Pro-Cornerback, but teams don't have any reservations about him making it as a safety.

    What about all the smaller, quicker WRs? Build ourselves around the Cardinals and then watch the little guys burn us repeatedly? One specific question some teams have about Williams is CAN he turn and run (hip fluidity) with the quicker wideouts. This is much different than straight line speed.

    He also is weak in the upper body compared to the other first round DBs.

    AND if we draft Williams (who's new to the corner position) don't expect ANY impact this year.
    The 2006 Season will be a total learning experience for Williams (and a trial).
    .
    Last edited by Tony Soprano; -03-25-2006 at 08:13 PM.

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