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  1. #16
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Here's what one scout said about Jimmy Williams:

    "Even though he has the speed and has been a standout college corner, Williams may not project very well at corner in the NFL. He doesn’t have the greatest fluidity in his turns, and will often lose ground on smaller receivers because of their quickness. He'll only fit at corner in certain schemes."

    I think he'll eventually end up at Safety. Teams are embolded by the fact that they feel he'll be a good safety, so they don't fear a wasted pick. However, we are not in a position to have a 2 year trial at Corner and then end up moving a Top-11 pick to Safety. Huff is projected as a MUCH BETTER SAFETY.

    .


  2. #17
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Here is a list of the top 30 WR and TE, most productive wide outs and TE in the league. If I missed someone add them, it’s clear me that these guys are getting bigger. Seven guys under 6' on this list I might have missed some guys, just ran stats on NFL.com, I did not cherry pick these guys.


    1 Steve Smith CAR 5-9
    2 Santana Moss WAS 5-10
    3 Chad Johnson CIN 6-1
    4 Larry Fitzgerald ARI 6-3
    5 Anquan Boldin ARI 6-1
    6 Torry Holt STL 6-0
    7 Joey Galloway TB 5-11
    8 Donald Driver GB 6-0
    9 Plaxico Burress NYG 6-5
    10 Marvin Harrison IND 6-0
    11 Terry Glenn DAL 5-11
    12 Chris Chambers MIA 5-11
    13 Rod Smith DEN 6-0
    14 Eddie Kennison KC 6-1
    15 Antonio Gates SD 6-4
    16 Derrick Mason BAL 5-10
    17 Reggie Wayne IND 6-0
    18 Jimmy Smith JAC 6-1
    19 Antonio Bryant CLE 6-2
    20 Randy Moss OAK 6-4
    21 Deion Branch NE 5-9
    22 Hines Ward PIT 6-0
    23 T.J. Houshmandzadeh CIN 6-1
    24 Donte' Stallworth NO 6-0
    25 Jerry Porter OAK 6-2
    26 Keenan McCardell SD 6-1
    27 Tony Gonzalez KC 6-5
    28 Jeremy Shockey NYG 6-5
    29 Alge Crumpler ATL 6-2
    30 Todd Heap 6-5

  3. #18
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Including tight ends is misleading, because you typically ask your linebacker or strong safety to match up with a team's tight end. Very rarely are you going to tell your cornerback to cover a tight end, and usually if they do, they have safety help when doing so.

    I tallied the totals of actual receivers on that list that you would be asking a cornerback to cover, and most of them are between 6'0" and 6'1". In fact, of the 25 WRs listed, only five are above the 6'1" mark. Are we really going to change our philosophy on defensive backs because five of the top 25 receivers are taller than six foot one?

    And again, when you look at the top cornerbacks in the league, the guys playing at the highest level, you typically find that they're anywhere from 5'10"-6'1". There really is not an outcry for big tall cornerbacks, because faster, athletic, smaller guys can just as easily get the job done as long as they display great coverage skills.
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  4. #19
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    Re: Size does matter.

    There really is not an outcry for big tall cornerbacks, because faster, athletic, smaller guys can just as easily get the job done as long as they display great coverage skills.
    Tell me again why we used our number two on Bartell last year? Because of his great cover skills that it right.

    And typically you did not see guys like Steve Young playing QB and now you see guys like Vick, Mcnabb and V. Young, I’m saying what you see today is not what you will see in five years. Look at the size and speed of the linemen on both size of the ball.

    And again, when you look at the top cornerbacks in the league
    That’s today I agree, I believe the trend is going to be bigger DB’s Nick you won’t change my opinion on this, Tennis players are taller then in the day when Johnny Mac was playing, basketball players are taller, in general football players have gotten big faster over the years that’s a fact.

  5. #20
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    Tell me again why we used our number two on Bartell last year? Because of his great cover skills that it right.
    We certainly didn't use it on him because of great size combined with such a questionable ability to play corner at the next level that he may have to move to safety! Bartell mixes good size with great athleticism and ability for the position.

    That's a bit different from Williams, who displays great size but projects as a safety because of questions regarding how his physical skills will transfer at cornerback.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    Thatís today I agree, I believe the trend is going to be bigger DBís Nick you wonít change my opinion on this, Tennis players are taller then in the day when Johnny Mac was playing, basketball players are taller, in general football players have gotten big faster over the years thatís a fact.
    I knew I wasn't going to change your opinion after you said you'd get off Williams when I provided documentation on his attitude only to continue pushing for him after I did.

    But just so long as you acknowledge the fact that you're basing this on what you think will happen, not what is happening, then have at it.

    As I pointed out in the personnel you provided, only five of 25 receivers are over 6'1". The majority of elite corners in this league fall around and under that height as well. Maybe when the transition begins to happen, we can address it. But all indication is that right now, because of the productive and elite players at both WR and CB, no transition is taking place.
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  6. #21
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    Re: Size does matter.

    But just so long as you acknowledge the fact that you're basing this on what you think will happen, not what is happening, then have at it.
    Based on the fact that football player in general have gotten bigger over the years, yeah I have referenced that fact, I’m not just saying I think this will happen because I think it. Athletes are getting bigger prove to me this is not happen.

    Nick have football player not gotten bigger over the years?

    Only five of 25
    Only 25 of the best why not 5 or 10, Why not 25 WR that are 5-9 and smaller?

    Hmm maybe if the CB where bigger, guys like Randy Moss, who is not known for his route running, but his ability to make the play for the ball, would not have as much success if the DB was 6’ plus. Maybe…

  7. #22
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    Re: Size does matter.

    NFL player are getting bigger.

    Stringer was six-feet four inches tall and weighed 335 pounds (152 kilos). His bulk is not unusual among offensive linemen in professional football today, whose job it is to ram into opposing defensive linemen—typically of similar size—to clear the way for running backs or protect the quarterback, the lighter, faster “skill players.” Line play is frequently referred to as being “in the trenches,” in keeping with the militaristic terminology of American football, but the description has a certain accuracy, suggesting a resemblance to the brutal, pointless battles of World War I, in which thousands died to gain a few yards.

    Players in this position have become bigger and bigger over the last two decades. While players of Stringer’s size were once merely overweight, today the majority of them have a high muscle mass and body fat of 15 percent or lower. Their bodies are the result of intense conditioning; and it is well known that this is helped along in many cases by the use of anabolic steroids, which pose grave health risks.

    These players are not only bigger, but faster as well. Much of the action on the football field involves collisions between these dense, heavy bodies, including direct helmet-to-helmet contact at high speeds. These collisions have resulted in numerous concussions and spinal cord injuries, leaving players permanently disabled. Even those who manage to escape catastrophic injuries spend only a relatively short time in professional football, averaging just over four years in the NFL. While some players sign multimillion-dollar contracts, more than half of them earn less than $500,000 a year during their brief careers. The long-term toll on the athletes’ bodies has been little studied, but there are plenty of anecdotal accounts of gifted athletes barely able to walk by age 50, because of loss of cartilage in the knees, and of premature deaths from a variety of causes.

    While football involves brute force, speed, athletic skill and strategy are also required. Some talented athletes have seen their lives tragically transformed, as a result of injuries suffered on the field. One of these men is Mike Utley, an All-American from Washington State University who was drafted by the Detroit Lions in 1989.

  8. #23
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    Nick have football player not gotten bigger over the years?
    That's a great broad question with "trap" written all over it. Obviously there are positions where players are getting bigger, specifically on the line. But we're talking about receivers, aren't we? I could have sworn we were.

    So let's look at some specifics instead. Look at the Hall of Fame.

    Fred Biletnikoff: 6'1"
    Elroy Hirsch: 6'2"
    Steve Largent: 5'11"
    James Lofton: 6'3"
    Don Maynard: 6'0"
    Lance Alworth: 6'0"
    John Stallworth: 6'2"
    Lynn Swann: 5'11"
    Paul Warfield: 6'0"

    So you tell me, where is the significant increase in the size of the great WRs? 80% of the receivers you listed are 6'1" or under. Guys like Steve Smith and Santana Moss had career years last season at 5'9".

    Of the modern era Hall of Famers, many of them are around the same size as the receivers of today - anywhere from 5'11" to 6'2". Tall receivers in this area are nothing new to the game.

    I guess I'm just not seeing this evolution of the position you seem to think is occuring.
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  9. #24
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Fred Biletnikoff: 6'1"
    Elroy Hirsch: 6'2"
    Steve Largent: 5'11"
    James Lofton: 6'3"
    Don Maynard: 6'0"
    Lance Alworth: 6'0"
    John Stallworth: 6'2"
    Lynn Swann: 5'11"
    Paul Warfield: 6'0"


    Here is your data, 5.89 avg. Height, not sure all these guys where playing at the same time in the same era but that’s fine.


    Randy Moss OAK 6-4
    Plaxico Burress NYG 6-5
    Larry Fitzgerald ARI 6-3
    Chad Johnson CIN 6-1
    Anquan Boldin ARI 6-1
    Marvin Harrison IND 6-0
    Donald Driver GB 6-0
    Eddie Kennison KC 6-1
    Jimmy Smith JAC 6-1

    All current players avg. Height 6.18 the trend to me is going up. I listed the most productive players in the game today. Maybe these guys don’t lead the way if DB’s are bigger, maybe. I did not use guys that are just the biggest. I used the most productive.
    Last edited by Rambos; -03-25-2006 at 11:17 PM.

  10. #25
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    Re: Size does matter.

    ONE FACTOR TO CONSIDER:

    Don't expect much, if any, contribution from Jimmy Williams in 2006.
    He doesn't have much experience at Corner. He certainly NOT a natural corner. Teams drafting him for corner need to have the luxury of waiting for him to develop and make the transition.

    I contend that the Rams, with our 30th Ranked Defense, cannot afford to draft someone that is projected to be a better player at a different position. Williams is projected to be a better Safety. Williams wants to do Corner because he knows that Corners get paid better.

    How about his 12 Reps.. That's pretty poor for a player of his size..

    .

  11. #26
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    Re: Size does matter.

    ONE FACTOR TO CONSIDER:

    Don't expect much, if any, contribution from Jimmy Williams in Round 1. He doesn't have much experience at Corner. He certainly NOT a natural corner. Teams drafting him for corner need to have the luxury of waiting for him to develop and make the tranisition.

    I contend that the Rams, with our 30th Ranked Defense, cannot afford to draft someone that is projected to be a better player at a different position. Williams is projected to be a better Safety. Williams wants to do Corner because he knows that Corners get paid better.

    How about his 12 Reps.. That's pretty poor for a player of his size..
    I agree with all of this thanks Tony.

    But what if and it might be to much of an if too take him, he can play corner and play it well?

  12. #27
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    Re: Size does matter.

    We NEED more help for our Defense than Ron Bartell provided last year. How much did Bartell do on our 30th ranked Defense?

    I think in our particular position ... Where we are still in striking distance with an exceptional group of veteran Skill players.
    Holt, Bulger, Faulk, Jackson, Bruce, Curtis..
    That we need some impact from our first round pick. We are not in a rebuilding phase like the Houston Texans or Green Packers.. We have a core of exceptional Veterans and some real talent.

    Add Glover & Witherspoon and we can't afford in these times to draft someone that needs to be developed. Someone that is being tried at their second best position.

    The NFL scouts seem to believe (from what one reads) that Huff is the Best DB by a significant margin. To me it makes MUCH more sense to give up a little and get the Undisputed best DB in the Draft.
    A player that is faster and stronger than Williams, and has a great attitude.

    .

  13. #28
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    Here is your data, 5.89 avg.
    Um, look at the numbers. Only two of the nine guys are listed at under six foot, none of them are even close to 5'8", and you're trying to tell me that's the average height for the group? Not quite. I think someone made a bit of a miscalculation with the guys who are 5'11" and maybe input them in the calculator as 5.11, which would actually represent a height of 5'1".

    But what the heck, instead of trying to input a guy who is 5'11" on our calculator, I'll have each of those guys give up two inches, and we can put them in at 5.9 instead. So, when you average the heights of the nine Hall of Famers, changing the two 5'11" receivers so they count as 5'9", the average is actually 6.06 feet.

    As for your list of current players, you didn't use the most productive. You used the most productive that fit your argument. Three of 2005's top nine receivers are under six foot, ranging from 5'9" to 5'11", yet none of them appear in your sample. They were certainly more productive and overall more talented than Donald Driver and Eddie Kennison, who ranked 14th last season and clearly is not a top receiver in this league.

    But even with that attempt to try and maximize height, the difference is a whopping 0.1, and that's even with two of the Hall of Famers giving up height to make calculations easier.

    If you take the actual nine most productive receivers of 2005, you have:

    Steve Smith: 5'9"
    Santana Moss: 5'10"
    Chad Johnson: 6'1"
    Larry Fitzgerald: 6'3"
    Anquan Boldin: 6'1"
    Torry Holt: 6'0"
    Joey Galloway: 5'11"
    Donald Driver: 6'0"
    Plaxico Burress: 6'5"

    As I did with the Hall of Famers, I'm going to round the 5'10" and 5'11" guys down. That means they're giving up 3 inches compared to the four the HoFers gave up, so I think that's fair.

    The average? 6.07.

    Only 0.01 greater than the Hall of Famers listed. And the Hall of Famers actually gave up an extra 0.1 in the initial calculation anyways.

    So again, I'm not seeing the great evolution you're referring to at the wide receiver position.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Size does matter.

    Rambos - I think Jimmy Williams is a good pick around 15th (Denver). If the team is sold on him playing corner, THEN you're probably right.

    Let's look at TROY POLAMALU .. He's the QB of the Steeler's Defense and certainly turned things around for their Defense. He's a Safety, but he's 5'10' - Huff is 6'0".

    We all both want the best guy for our team. Maybe we're both wrong on these personnel decisions. I was wrong on Alex Barron last year.


    .
    Last edited by Tony Soprano; -03-25-2006 at 11:37 PM.

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    Re: Size does matter.

    We NEED more help for our Defense than Ron Bartell provided last year. How much did Bartell do on our 30th ranked Defense?
    I agree, but Bartell was a second round pick, I recall us taking and OL with the first pick, maybe that’s why we where 30th on D. The FO or coaches did not think we needed help on the D, but they are gone and we are still here.

    I think in our particular position ... Where we are still in striking distance with an exceptional group of veteran Skill players.
    Holt, Bulger, Faulk, Jackson, Bruce, Curtis..
    That we need some impact from our first round pick. We are not in a rebuilding phase like the Houston Texans or Green Packers.. We have a core of exceptional Veterans and some real talent.
    I agree….

    Add Glover & Witherspoon and we can't afford in these times to draft someone that needs to be developed. Someone that is being tried at their second best position.
    We have added more then Glover & Witherspoon, we might have as many as 7 new starters. O.J. Atogwe is very young, maybe he does not produce, can Jimmy take his spot if he can’t cut it at CB? I would think he could… Corey Chavous is 30 years old he won’t be here forever.

    How about his 12 Reps.. That's pretty poor for a player of his size..
    He can always hit the weights his young, you can’t get taller or faster, you can’t teach speed as they say.

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