Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 48
  1. #31
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,302
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by harrydog View Post
    Assuming that Chris Long is gone, wouldn't it make perfect sense to trade down if there is a team in the top 10 that would want Dorsey bad enough.
    Trading down is always something to consider, but is often much easier said than done.

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    Six offensive tackles in round 1 that would be a record, i don't think that is very likely.
    The Falcons, Chiefs, Ravens, Broncos, Panthers, Bears, Lions, Texans, and Steelers could all potentially look at an OT in round one; the Dolphins could come back above us in round two and look at one as well.

    Do I think six OTs will be drafted before our second round pick? Probably not, but to completely ignore the possibility of taking one in round one because you assume one will be there in round two doesn't sound like a sound strategy to me.

    Ideally I'd prefer to wait until the second round to take an OT as well. But I'd also rather address the OT position with our first round pick than another position where we already have a talented young player (UT).


  2. #32
    Bald_81's Avatar
    Bald_81 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    25
    Posts
    882
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Nick, that was only half of my point. My point really came in the last paragraph and I would've liked you to answer if we were in the Lions position, would we have taken Calvin or Gaines? IMO only a fool would take Gaines just because it is a need area.

    And as someone mentioned, Dorsey would make the pass rush better as a whole. He commanded many double and even triple teams in college, so therefore opposing teams would look out for him which could give Little a 1 on 1 situation more often than not instead of constantly being double-teamed. By the way, here is another video of Dorsey:

    Glenn Dorsey Highlights

    *drool*

  3. #33
    Bar-bq's Avatar
    Bar-bq is offline Pro Bowl Ram
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    2,878
    Rep Power
    94

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Do I think six OTs will be drafted before our second round pick? Probably not, but to completely ignore the possibility of taking one in round one because you assume one will be there in round two doesn't sound like a sound strategy to me.
    I'm sorry, did you imply that there might actually be a strategy to this drafting thing? I think you'd recieve a stern word of warning from our front office.

    Ideally I'd prefer to wait until the second round to take an OT as well. But I'd also rather address the OT position with our first round pick than another position where we already have a talented young player (UT).
    I agree. I think unless Dorsey is considered head and shoulders the better player, and Gholston doesn't come on, Long has to warrant strong consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    And as someone mentioned, Dorsey would make the pass rush better as a whole. He commanded many double and even triple teams in college, so therefore opposing teams would look out for him which could give Little a 1 on 1 situation more often than not instead of constantly being double-teamed.
    There's no guarantee yet that Little will return, yet, either. He's due a huge roster bonus. It could be goodbye unless he restructures.

  4. #34
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,302
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    My point really came in the last paragraph and I would've liked you to answer if we were in the Lions position, would we have taken Calvin or Gaines? IMO only a fool would take Gaines just because it is a need area.
    If it were me choosing, I preferred Johnson. I would take him first overall if I had that pick. But projecting for the Lions, to be perfectly honest, I thought the pick in their situation would be Adams, though I admitted the Johnson pick made a lot of sense. But Marinelli's Tampa 2 defensive is dependent on being able to get pressure on the opposition with your front four, and Adams was the best pass rusher in the draft. The Lions did not have anyone at DE that had the potential to be that kind of game-changing double digit sack artist from the DE position. With a defensive-minded head coach, I thought the pick would be to add a much-needed playmaker to that defensive unit.

    Ultimately though Johnson was the pick in '07, but picking Johnson would not be similar to the Rams picking Dorsey in '08 for a number of reasons IMO.

    1) First of all, the Lions didn't use their 2006 first rounder on a WR and would not be drafting back to back at the position like we would be in drafting Dorsey.

    2) Additionally, though the Lions had spent three first round picks on WRs from '03 to '05, only one of them stuck - Roy Williams. And he was drafted in 2004, three years prior. The only other WR of consequence on Detroit's roster after 2006 was Furrey, not an ideal starter by any stretch. So clearly the Lions had a significant need for a starting WR as well. Compare that to our situation, where we have two young players already on the D-line, one a starter in Carriker and the other a potential starter in Ryan.

    3) The Lions lining up two guys at wide receiver is a lot easier than the Rams trying to line up two three-technique tackles. While there are differences between wide receivers, those differences in terms of on the field roles primarily relate to where they're lined up on the field - flanker, split end, slot receiver, etc. The Rams are in a different situation though, because there are substantial differences in responsibilities and roles between the two DT positions, one being the nose tackle and one being the under tackle or three-technique tackle. The coaching staff has already acknowledged that Carriker's best position will be the UT spot that Dorsey would fill if we drafted him. That would cause you to shift Carriker back to NT where he isn't quite as suited and where we already have a promising young player. Again, this strikes me as different than the Detroit situation.

    4) There was no question Johnson was clearly the best player in the draft last year. He was simply a phenom. But I don't think the same can be said about Dorsey. I think he's a bit overrated when people talk confidently about him being one of the best prospects we've seen at the position in the last decade. Dorsey is losing ground to Sedrick Ellis at this point as the top DT prospect available and none of the half dozen draft information sites I trust consider Dorsey the best player in this class. More than a few don't even consider him the best defensive player, as some rank Chris Long ahead of him. The consensus last year though seemed to be that Johnson was far and away the best player regardless of position. I just don't think you can confidently and decisively make the same claim about Dorsey at this point.

    I hope I've now addressed your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    By the way, here is another video of Dorsey:

    Glenn Dorsey Highlights
    Honest question - is that supposed to change my mind? It's a highlight video, all highlight videos are designed to show the player making great plays. One thing that stood out to me from the video is that I don't think I saw Dorsey face and beat any double teams in that video.

    Look, I think Dorsey is an excellent prospect. I think he's right up there with Ellis as the two best DTs in this class, a Top Five player on my big board. I think in a Tampa 2 scheme where he's allowed to really take advantage of that quick initial burst, he could be a killer.

    But I'm just not as impressed with him as some others seem to be. Stats never tell the whole picture, but Dorsey hasn't exactly been a monster when it comes to the numbers, especially in quarterback pressures (only seven in 51 games). A number of top DTs over the last few years have duplicated and surpassed what Dorsey accomplished on the field, and I'm sure they faced their share of double teams as well.

    I guess what I'm saying is this - in order to convince me that we should pass on a Top Five player who addresses a significant need, the guy you're suggesting we take has to be a special one of a kind prospect. I'm just really not completely convinced I see that in Dorsey. And it doesn't help that drafting him means a shift back to NT for Carriker... or the Rams adopting a defensive front featuring two one-gap tackles, which I'm really not confident about considering the lack of gap discipline we see in our LBs from time to time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    There's no guarantee yet that Little will return, yet, either. He's due a huge roster bonus. It could be goodbye unless he restructures.
    And even then, he probably only has one more season left, which is part of the reason why DE is such a significant need. Yes, it's a need because we need to improve our pass rush, and drafting Dorsey would help that issue. But drafting Dorsey does nothing to address the fact that we have two 30-something starting defensive ends and no young pass rusher behind either. We need a future starter at defensive end - we're going to have to address it sometime. We can either kill two birds (help w/ pass rush & youth @ DE) with one stone and spend a pick on a DE, or we can kill one bird (help w/ pass rush) with a pick at DT and still have to spend a pick at DE to find a future starter.
    Last edited by Nick; -02-04-2008 at 06:09 AM.

  5. #35
    Bald_81's Avatar
    Bald_81 is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    25
    Posts
    882
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Sorry, I shouldn't have attached the video to the end of that paragraph. That was just another video for everyone to see, not one to try and pursuade your opinions or views on him.

    Anyway, since I can't seem to help you make sense of the Dorsey pick, why don't you help me make sense of why Carriker can't be pushed back out to end? After all, he was considered the most complete DE in the draft last year by many scouts and experts. Reading scouting reports on him prior to the draft, the general consensus is that he does not have the elite speed to get to the QB but he has a motor that never stops. Who does that sound like? Chris Long. Although Long is arguably faster, they both have non-stop motors and can pressure the QB. Carriker is also stout against the run, something we lacked before this season, as is Long. So why not move Carriker back out to end, have Ryan start at NT and then have Dorsey start at UT? Would that not be formidible? Obviously not, since you do not believe that Carriker can be moved back out to end and you believe he is not suited for his natural position.

    Now, with regards to taking Jake Long, I will list reasons as to why I believe he is not worth the #2 pick from us:

    1) He is not Joe Thomas. If Jake were anything like a prospect Joe Thomas or even D'Brickashaw Ferguson was, then I would have no problem with the Rams taking him at #2. He is not as good of a prospect as either of them and he would be taken at a higher spot than they both were, so I do not believe he warrants our pick.

    2) It is conceivable he may not even play at LT in the NFL. Do you draft a RT with the #2 overall pick? Of course not.

    3) Assuming Pace comes back healthy and ready to go, Long has to sit on the bench and watch for most of the season unless an injury gets him onto the field. Unless we draft a QB, the player we draft at #2 is one who should be able to help us out immediately and therefore see the field which Long won't do.

    4) Despite the constant flaming, Barron actually held his won at the LT position while filling in for Pace this season. So, if Pace were to be hurt, do you leave Barron on the right or shift him to the left? If you do, then Long plays on the right, and as I stated, you simply don't draft a RT at #2.

    5) There is so much OT depth in this draft that we can pick up one who can help us immediately when called upon at the beginning of round two. Similar to what the Texans did in '06, even though their offensive line gave up the most sacks and was in dire need of a make over, they went with Mario in the 1st and drafted OT in the later rounds because of the depth in that class.

    Anyway, there is still a load of time before the draft. The combine is soon (2 weeks!!) so questions about Dorsey's durability and injuries will be answer there. Free agency could also give us insight into what we will do in the draft, so there is definitely alot to sort through.
    Last edited by Bald_81; -02-04-2008 at 06:42 AM.

  6. #36
    txramsfan's Avatar
    txramsfan is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, MO
    Age
    50
    Posts
    7,266
    Rep Power
    65

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    After watching the Giants D line be the main reason why they won the game yesterday, I'd hate to think that the Rams passed up on Dorsey because they wanted a DE. With Carriker and Dorsey in the middle of the D line, that could be a formidable interior that most teams would drool over.

  7. #37
    Dominating D's Avatar
    Dominating D is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    829
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    I agree TX. Sometimes you need to build from your strength down. If you know your line will hold up you can then take some chances in the secondary....

  8. #38
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,088
    Rep Power
    41

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Fargo Ram Fan View Post
    ...GULP...
    Might be the best one-word post I've seen in quite awhile!!

    WHAT SAY YE?

  9. #39
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,088
    Rep Power
    41

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    After watching the Giants D line be the main reason why they won the game yesterday, I'd hate to think that the Rams passed up on Dorsey because they wanted a DE. With Carriker and Dorsey in the middle of the D line, that could be a formidable interior that most teams would drool over.
    Wow!! Those were precisely the thoughts that were running thru my mind while watching with glee 'ol Tommy boy takin' a beating from the G-men front four. So where will a guy like Dorsey fit in with the Rams? Anywhere he wants to.

    WHAT SAY YE?

  10. #40
    badmoforamfan's Avatar
    badmoforamfan is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    CO
    Age
    40
    Posts
    498
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    JA from KC would deffinately give the Rams a safety net. Then they would have filled a D need in a pass rusher and would be free to pick the player with the best overall talent even if it was another DE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Maybe not now, but soon.

  11. #41
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,302
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    Anyway, since I can't seem to help you make sense of the Dorsey pick, why don't you help me make sense of why Carriker can't be pushed back out to end?
    Because Adam Carriker lacks the explosion and quick burst off the edge to make him an effective pass rusher from outside. He doesn't have a variety of pass rush moves at his disposal, and he isn't quick enough to fly off the edge and challenge the corner of that pocket like a 4-3 defensive end should be. He gets to the quarterback basically by bull rushing and overpowering his man back into the pocket. As an interior player, he's capable of shooting the gaps on the inside and dealing with inside blockers, but he doesn't have the closing speed or quickness to challenge the edge from the outside of a 4-3.

    You say you read scouting reports on him prior to the draft, but if you had, then you would have read the general consensus on Carriker being that he was a defensive tackle in a 4-3 scheme and a defensive end in a 3-4 because he's much more of a power and leverage player. Meanwhile, Chris Long accumulated 14 sacks and 23 QB pressures in 2007, and though Long isn't an elite speed rusher off the edge either, I do think he has better initial quickness from the DE position than Carriker and can apply that immediate pressure. Whereas Carriker is going to engage and try to overpower a guy, I think Long has developed a better set of pass rush moves to help him on the outside. He has a good knowledge of taking different angles to get to the passer and is willing to simply avoid or shed a blocker if he sees a path to the passer. I think as a strong side defensive end

    You claim that I don't believe Carriker is suited for his natural position of end, but that's simply because I disagree about that being his natural position. At 6'6'" and over 300 pounds, with the skills and abilities I just described, I think his natural position is an interior three-technique tackle. Haslett has basically confirmed as much as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald_81 View Post
    Now, with regards to taking Jake Long, I will list reasons as to why I believe he is not worth the #2 pick from us:
    You make some valid points. Let me address them one at a time as well.

    1) I agree that he's not quite the prospect Joe Thomas was, but I'm not convinced he's behind Ferguson, who has thus far been a disappointment for the Jets as I understand it. He's considered to be a better pro prospect than Levi Brown, who was a Top Five pick last year. In the end, all of these guys are Top Five tackles, and putting Long in that same range makes him a possibility for us at two IMO.

    2) Where he ultimately will play is an area of concern that needs to be examined, definitely. Obviously if something changes between now and the draft that really supports the idea that Long is going to have to be a right tackle in the pros, then his value for us in round one drops a bit and he becomes less of a consideration. But at this point, I've heard valid arguments from both sides of that debate, which is why for the time being I still think he needs to be up there on the board.

    3) I think it's a pretty big assumption to say that Long won't play at all if Pace comes back healthy. Why couldn't he compete at one of the guard positions? Why couldn't he compete immediately at right tackle, where Alex Barron desperately needs to be pushed and motivated? There are plenty of places where he could try to fit in as an immediate player. You're willing to shift people around to make Dorsey fit, why couldn't Long be shifted around so he can make an immediate impact as well?

    4) I've been vocal in that I've not been all that impressed with Barron during his time as a pro. I find him to be generally inconsistent and his concentration is often suspect. Additionally, I question whether he has the work ethic or motivation to ever take his game to the next level. Jim Thomas has already talked about how Barron is still an immature individual and doesn't like to lift weights. Most recognize that it was Barron being called out by Bulger at the end of 2006 for poor attitude. If Pace gets hurt again, I'm sure the Rams will try a number of configurations to see what will work the best. But I'm not convinced that Barron has locked down a long-term future here.

    5) I've acknowledged there is depth at OT in this class, and I've also said my preference would be to be able to wait and draft a tackle in round two. However, my preference is to also spend our picks on players at areas in need of help some, and if I ranked all of our positions based on need, I think DT right now would be pretty close to the bottom. I'm not suggesting our first round pick has to be at our biggest need position, and I'm more than willing to look at other positions down the list depending on who is available. But DT is, IMO, pretty far down the list, especially at UT where Carriker looks to be the future. That's why I would prefer to look at other positions first in that spot. In the end, I don't think Dorsey is such a one of a kind prospect that we simply have to take him regardless of need.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    After watching the Giants D line be the main reason why they won the game yesterday, I'd hate to think that the Rams passed up on Dorsey because they wanted a DE. With Carriker and Dorsey in the middle of the D line, that could be a formidable interior that most teams would drool over.
    The funny thing is that when you look at the Giants' defensive line, the reason they're able to get pressure on the quarterback is because of the talent they have at defensive ends - Osi Umenyiora (13 sacks), Michael Strahan (9 sacks), and Justin Tuck (10 sacks). Consider that Tuck is a defensive end who played quite a bit at tackle as well because of his ability as a run defender. So really, the Giants' formula has been to stockpile defensive ends.

  12. #42
    39thebeast's Avatar
    39thebeast is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    conecticut
    Posts
    2,740
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Nick I don't think it is wise to take a guy number 2 over all just so he could compete for a starting guard or RT spot. I think that would be a waste of a pick. I also think you are right in saying that DT is farther down the need list. Thats why i suggest if Chris Long is gone we take Vernon Gholston. I think he is capable of having a similar combine to Gaines Adams and having a similar rookie season and then a breakout one in his sophmore year like Mario Williams. He will at least be situational pass rusher and become a starter like Mark Anderson of the Bears did. Mark Anderson made a huge impact rushing the passer and Gholston could make a similar impact as a situational guy or an every down player. Where as Jake Long would be a guard or RT at most with a healthy Pace. Long would push Barron, but i don't think were just going to put all that money on the bench, and slow his development even more. That leaves the guard possession. Don't get me wrong there are big impact guards, but is the value of an impact guard with the second overall pick the same as the value of an impact situational or every down end?

  13. #43
    chiguy's Avatar
    chiguy is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Illinois
    Age
    42
    Posts
    1,134
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Nick makes one of the best points in favor of Jake when he says that he could play guard. If you look at a guy like Leonard Davis (I think I have the right guy) who was mediocre at tackle, but an absolute mauler at guard, then it seems reasonable to have Long try it out. Plus, he'll push Barron (who *needs* to be pushed badly) and potentially start at LT/RT in a couple of years.

    I'm not crazy about Long as a prospect because you hear things that make you wonder if he'll get it done at the next level, but he is also talented and one of the best things you could potentially do is get him on the field at the guard spot.

    That is, of course, if you don't love C. Long or Gholston more as a prospect and they're sitting there.

    I'll say this...for once we would've been in an easier position being down a couple of slots in the draft. Usually, we're about 1-3 slots away from what we need.

  14. #44
    bigredman's Avatar
    bigredman is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Age
    57
    Posts
    1,815
    Rep Power
    61

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Hey Nick buddy....I know you have this huge cranium with all the knowledge of the college draft selections in there, but for us old farts and less sophisticated, can you at least tell us the position and school of the players you ramble off in your replies. You have a tendency to rattle off a bunch of names assuming we all know who the heck you are talking about.

    Your admirer,
    Randy
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  15. #45
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,302
    Rep Power
    153

    Re: Someone help me make sense of the Dorsey pick

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    Nick I don't think it is wise to take a guy number 2 over all just so he could compete for a starting guard or RT spot. I think that would be a waste of a pick.
    Well when you describe it like that, it would be a waste of a pick. But you'd take a tackle that high because you envision him eventually being your starting left tackle for a long time to come. Jake Long (OT, Michigan) playing guard or right tackle is simply so he can have an immediate impact.

    Obviously if something happens before the draft and Long's ability to play left tackle at the next level is significantly called into question, then his value drops and he doesn't become as good an option. But right now I think the jury is still out there, and until we start to find something out one way or the other, he needs to be considered.

    And who knows. You've got a guy like Boise State's Ryan Clady who is kind of on the fence of the top ten for a lot of analysts, and he could come into the combine and just blow people away and suddenly become a consideration as well. A lot can happen between now and then.

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    I also think you are right in saying that DT is farther down the need list. Thats why i suggest if Chris Long is gone we take Vernon Gholston.
    With an excellent showing at the combine, Gholston (DE, Ohio State) will likely move up my personal list over Jake Long. The only reason he hasn't yet is because I'm waiting for him to test out at the combine.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    Nick makes one of the best points in favor of Jake when he says that he could play guard. If you look at a guy like Leonard Davis (I think I have the right guy) who was mediocre at tackle, but an absolute mauler at guard, then it seems reasonable to have Long try it out. Plus, he'll push Barron (who *needs* to be pushed badly) and potentially start at LT/RT in a couple of years.
    That's exactly it, yep. Those who talk about taking Dorsey (DT, LSU) because he will have an immediate impact need to also consider that, even if Long doesn't immediately play left tackle, there are other spots he can occupy in the meantime. I believe it was Jonathan Ogden who spent his rookie season at guard before moving outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    Hey Nick buddy....I know you have this huge cranium with all the knowledge of the college draft selections in there, but for us old farts and less sophisticated, can you at least tell us the position and school of the players you ramble off in your replies. You have a tendency to rattle off a bunch of names assuming we all know who the heck you are talking about.

    Your admirer,
    Randy
    I will do my best, good sir.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Rookie DTs Make a Difference
    By RamWraith in forum RAM TALK
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: -10-19-2007, 02:16 PM
  2. FIRST PICK in the DRAFT
    By Tony Soprano in forum RAM TALK
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: -10-18-2007, 02:33 AM
  3. Overview from ESPN
    By RamWraith in forum RAM TALK
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: -06-11-2007, 07:34 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: -09-28-2004, 10:40 AM
  5. ESPN Scouts Inc: Rams Team Summary
    By Nick in forum RAM TALK
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: -07-26-2004, 02:10 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •