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  1. #31
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel View Post
    i think its an absolute joke to believe that his value is that of a 4th or 5th round pick.
    Normally I would agree, but two additional factors outside of who he is and what we've grown to know about him since being drafted work against Barron IMO.

    One, I feel some of the trades that have already happened this offseason - Shaun Rogers, Kris Jenkins, Jonathan Vilma, DeAngelo Hall - make it difficult to really be able to justify a third round value for Barron. You've got Pro Bowl caliber players being dealt for a pick package of a third or fourth and a later or conditional pick. Is Barron better at his position than these guys? If Shaun Rogers can be had for a third and fifth rounder, is Barron worth a third? Not in my opinion.

    Two, this is widely considered to be a very good and deep class at OT. Because of that, the value of functional but hardly exceptional veteran offensive tackles will likely be less, as teams may feel like they can get quality players in the middle rounds. Quality offensive linemen can be found throughout many rounds in the NFL draft - look at guys over the last few drafts like Tony Pashos (round 5), Shane Olivea (round 7), David Stewart (round 4), Nick Kaczur (round 3), Jonathan Scott (round 5), and Jeromey Clary (round 6).

    Any other year, it would be difficult for me to want to move him for less than a third. As you said, he's been a starter and has done a solid job. But given the trades we've seen thus far this offseason, as well as this class' talent at the tackle position, I think the standards have to be lowered ever so slightly. A fifth round value was perhaps too low, but I don't see him as holding a value much higher than a low third or a fourth at this point.

    He'd do wonders to improve his marketability by actually showing a commitment to improving his play and working towards that potential. The news that the new O-line coach may already be growing frustrated with him continues to make me doubt whether or not he has the motivation or drive to ever make the most of his talent.


  2. #32
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    One, I feel some of the trades that have already happened this offseason - Shaun Rogers, Kris Jenkins, Jonathan Vilma, DeAngelo Hall - make it difficult to really be able to justify a third round value for Barron. You've got Pro Bowl caliber players being dealt for a pick package of a third or fourth and a later or conditional pick. Is Barron better at his position than these guys? If Shaun Rogers can be had for a third and fifth rounder, is Barron worth a third? Not in my opinion.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Two, this is widely considered to be a very good and deep class at OT. Because of that, the value of functional but hardly exceptional veteran offensive tackles will likely be less, as teams may feel like they can get quality players in the middle rounds. Quality offensive linemen can be found throughout many rounds in the NFL draft - look at guys over the last few drafts like Tony Pashos (round 5), Shane Olivea (round 7), David Stewart (round 4), Nick Kaczur (round 3), Jonathan Scott (round 5), and Jeromey Clary (round 6).
    I'm not sure about this. Can you say that these players came in and had an immediate impact on their franchises; That is, were they ready to start right away? (I haven't checked this- maybe they all were) And from this perspective, I think you can justify a 3rd round value for Barron. Is a third round pick going to come in and be as immediately effectvie as Barron? For teams that are looking for a stop-gap solution, a want-to-win now situation, Barron may be a great fit, rather than riding an unproven rookie.

  3. #33
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Hummm.... I dont think Jake in any of these scenarios is "settling"....but were have a chance to change the game with this #2 draft. we have a chance to take our d-line (SEE NYG) to a level that would make our defense as ominous as any in the league. Yes Im on the Gholston bandwagon. Is it better to have a great ( even with Long thats a stretch) O-line., or a great (VG, Carriker, Ryan, Little) D-line. I get goose bump (LOL) thinking about my team knocking the snot out of NFC west qbs (especially Hasselbeck). How many times have we lost games in recent years because qbs ate our defense apart while standing back in the pocket with no pressure. We have the chance to change how teams will have to prepare for us in one pick. We started last year with the Carriker pick. Lets follow the path and Get that speed DE we need to make teams start to fear (not simply overlook) our front 4.

  4. #34
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    i disagree on the comparisons in trade value because a number of those players you named were either coming off injury (ie vilma) or looking for big contracts. Barron still has i believe two years left on a reasonable contract for a starter and i dont care how deep the draft looks, those guys are still unproven completely at the nfl level. Robert Gallery didnt perform, let alone guys at the 4th or 5th round level.

    As an aside, my point has less to do with current market value than my view that all nfl teams are overvaluing the mid round picks. Just my opinion. I think economics and cap numbers are driving tons of these trades. Once a team decides that it cant or wont sign a guy for the money he wants, they get what they can for him because they dont want an unhappy employee (true in most businesses). Think about how productive (or lack of productive) the average person gets when he asks his boss for a raise and gets turned down.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel


  5. #35
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Just read the article on ESPN about Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning and saw something rather interesting.

    "Predraft talk painted Leaf as the more dynamic athlete and Manning as the more polished product."

    Remind you guys of anyone lately?

  6. #36
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Just read the article on ESPN about Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning and saw something rather interesting.

    "Predraft talk painted Leaf as the more dynamic athlete and Manning as the more polished product."

    Remind you guys of anyone lately?
    You know, Teke......right now Manning might be more refined, but Leaf is still learning the position, is stronger, and has more upside. Ryan Leaf didn't have the advantage of being raised by an All-Pro father like Manning. Plus, have you not seen how strong Leaf's arm is? He is Godlike! In a year or two, Ryan Leaf will be better than Peyton Manning. I'd take him at #2 regardless of who goes #1.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #37
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You know, Teke......right now Manning might be more refined, but Leaf is still learning the position, is stronger, and has more upside. Ryan Leaf didn't have the advantage of being raised by an All-Pro father like Manning. Plus, have you not seen how strong Leaf's arm is? He is Godlike! In a year or two, Ryan Leaf will be better than Peyton Manning. I'd take him at #2 regardless of who goes #1.
    Hindsight is always perfect.

  8. #38
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Just read the article on ESPN about Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning and saw something rather interesting.

    "Predraft talk painted Leaf as the more dynamic athlete and Manning as the more polished product."

    Remind you guys of anyone lately?
    For one thing, anybody who knows anything about football knows that DE and QB comparisons are like comparing apples and oranges.

    But since you've been on Hub's bandwagon for a couple of weeks now since he paid you a compliment, I'm going to oblige you this response.

    If you want to know who I would've drafted between Leaf and Manning, hands down Manning. Why? Because he was the QB most ready to play. Unless you've already got a HOF QB in his prime in the fold, QB is the one position on the field that you can not afford to gamble on. So of course the smart man takes the more polished QB.

    Defensive ends however are a matter of preference like I've stated several times. I like Gholston over Chris Long because I believe his God-given natural abilities surpasses Long's. In spite of what Hub says, he is both faster and stronger than Chris Long.

    Long is the more technically sound End at this time (and that I attribute that to his HOF dad and his hard work).

    But in time, I believe Gholston will learn the nuances of the position and become a more complete player, at which time he will surpass Long as a football player. This of course, is contingent on staying healthy.

    And yes, for the position of DEs, LBs, and Safetys I prefer a dynamic player. Somehow, knocking the snot out of someone is more appealing to me than a drag down tackle.

  9. #39
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by niner
    In spite of what Hub says, he is both faster and stronger than Chris Long.
    Now, now, niner....if you're going to invoke my name, at least get the facts straight. I've never said Chris Long was stronger than Vernon Gholston. And I have said numerous times that in the 40 yard dash Gholston had the better time. However, at the Combine Long's 10-split, 20-shuttle, & 3-cone were all faster than Gholston. That's not "what Hub says", that's what the stopwatch says.
    Quote Originally Posted by niner
    Somehow, knocking the snot out of someone is more appealing to me than a drag down tackle.
    And I agree. Watching some defender go horizontal on a ballcarrier is a thing of beauty. It's the kind of stuff that makes for great highlight reels. Just add a heavy metal soundtrack and that's a sweet YouTube waiting to happen.

    But there's another question that has to be asked: Which is more preferable? 4.5 drag down tackles a game, or 2.5 snot-rocking tackles per game?
    since you've been on Hub's bandwagon for a couple of weeks now since he paid you a compliment
    Well that's not fair. I also paid you a compliment, and even gave you positive rep for all this jibber-jabber we've been doing.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #40
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    i'll take the 2.5 snot rocker anytime. He will put fear into opposing teams, and right now, thats what our defense needs. Chris long got 4.5 drag down tackles a game in the ACC.vs .2.5 snot -rocking tackles in the 3 yards and a cloud of dust big ten. Consider this....name a first round tackle taken out of the ACC during C Longs tenure......hummm...Name a big ten tackle taken in the first (or will be taken in the first) round that V. Gholston made lunch out of......Levi brown/Joe Thomas/JakeLong.....2.5 looking pretty good against that level of comp.....

  11. #41
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by ram1906 View Post
    i'll take the 2.5 snot rocker anytime. He will put fear into opposing teams, and right now, thats what our defense needs. Chris long got 4.5 drag down tackles a game in the ACC.vs .2.5 snot -rocking tackles in the 3 yards and a cloud of dust big ten. Consider this....name a first round tackle taken out of the ACC during C Longs tenure......hummm...Name a big ten tackle taken in the first (or will be taken in the first) round that V. Gholston made lunch out of......Levi brown/Joe Thomas/JakeLong.....2.5 looking pretty good against that level of comp.....
    1906, I've answered this once, but I'll do it here as well. Vernon Gholston against.....

    Jake Long - 97 pass attempts, 1 sack
    Levi Brown - 25 pass attempts, 1 sack (though it may have come against another lineman)
    Joe Thomas - Vernon Gholston and Joe Thomas have NEVER been on the same field.

    And if you would prefer a DE with 40 stops a season over a DE with 72 stops a season, I beg you to apply for the Niners GM position.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  12. #42
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    [QUOTE=HUbison;223992)

    But there's another question that has to be asked: Which is more preferable? 4.5 drag down tackles a game, or 2.5 snot-rocking tackles per game?

    Well that's not fair. I also paid you a compliment, and even gave you positive rep for all this jibber-jabber we've been doing.[/QUOTE]



    I'd personally go with the 2.5 snot-rockers because they are much more likely to produce a possible game-changing turnover.

    Appreciate the Rep, keep'um comin'.

  13. #43
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I'd personally go with the 2.5 snot-rockers because they are much more likely to produce a possible game-changing turnover.
    And the two tackles that aren't made by that player are just as likely first downs that lead to scores or scores themselves with the way our defense tackles. I'll take the extra two tackles closer to the line of scrimmage, thank you. We have enough issues bringing down the ball carrier, once we have that down, we can focus on hitting harder.

  14. #44
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    For one thing, anybody who knows anything about football knows that DE and QB comparisons are like comparing apples and oranges.

    But since you've been on Hub's bandwagon for a couple of weeks now since he paid you a compliment, I'm going to oblige you this response.

    If you want to know who I would've drafted between Leaf and Manning, hands down Manning. Why? Because he was the QB most ready to play. Unless you've already got a HOF QB in his prime in the fold, QB is the one position on the field that you can not afford to gamble on. So of course the smart man takes the more polished QB.

    Defensive ends however are a matter of preference like I've stated several times. I like Gholston over Chris Long because I believe his God-given natural abilities surpasses Long's. In spite of what Hub says, he is both faster and stronger than Chris Long.

    Long is the more technically sound End at this time (and that I attribute that to his HOF dad and his hard work).

    But in time, I believe Gholston will learn the nuances of the position and become a more complete player, at which time he will surpass Long as a football player. This of course, is contingent on staying healthy.

    And yes, for the position of DEs, LBs, and Safetys I prefer a dynamic player. Somehow, knocking the snot out of someone is more appealing to me than a drag down tackle.
    1. On the subject of Hub, I'm on his bandwagon because we both believe the same things and both use factual information to make similar arguments. The fact that he complimented me is just Marshall's Jello Pudding on top.

    2. And you would be right in your assessment of QB's, go with the hard worker. But you ALWAYS go with the hard worker. How many examples are there in the NFL of guys who were in "harder" conferences that got by on athletic ability and then when they were drafted high they hit a wall, regardless of position. Then they get passed up by a lesser conference hard worker. Would you call Memphis a power football school? How would you rate it's conference? Issac Bruce never was the most dynamic, but his hard work at Memphis and NFL have made him a hall of famer.

    3. Gholston is faster and stronger than Long, depending upon your boundary conditions. If you go the whole forty yards, he's faster. If you're only got 10 yards, say the distance from the end of a 4-3 line to a QB, Long is faster. And he was quicker in the three cone, so he can change direction a bit better as well. As for strength, there are some conflicting reports, and I haven't seen any NFL-reported lifting stats on Long, but we'll give the edge to Gholston anyway. Strength won't matter as much when he doesn't have the technique to break away.

    4. You say "given time, Gholston can learn". From whom? Little? Hall? For a little while. Our defensive line coaches have never been that great, or else we wouldn't be in this predicament. Vic and Hargrove would be better than perennial backups/washouts. Bryce Fisher never became much and neitehr did Winstrom. They had the ability, but they weren't able to put it all together. Excuse me for wanting NFL-ready out of a top 2 pick.

    5. As I said in my last post, I would rather us have some solid tacklers first and then focus on the big hits, because last year when we tried for a home run hit(Whiners in STL) Chavous first couldn't stop Gore from the first down, and then couldn't strip the ball and then couldn't hold on as Gore took a 4th and 1 to the house. Give me reliable stops for short yardage any day with this defense.

  15. #45
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    From what it sounds to me, Gholston and Chris Long are projects at DE....while Dorsey is established at DT. Call me a small town country boy, but with all the 3-cone and 5-cone and this and that stuff....knowing that whatever defense you play you are going to be that one position established guy is a big plus.

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