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  1. #76
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Gosh, with all the bickering between taking Gholston or C Long or Dorsey, I sort of want the Rams to take McFadden and watch all kinds of stuff happen on this board.

    Geez, this draft isn't going to make this team a Super Bowl contender this year anyway. It's going to AT LEAST take another good draft.
    1. Tx, in your heart of hearts, you really don't want to see some off-the-wall pick. You, Nick, & me are all on clean-up patrol after the parade of elephants is over, and none of us wants those kind of elephants to deal with......know what I mean, brother?

    2. We're only one game worse now than we were in '98. I'm not sayin', just sayin'.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #77
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Oh man, you just got to love SEMO humor.

  3. #78
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Oh man, you just got to love SEMO humor.
    The Dunklin County fair parade was going through my mind while I typed.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #79
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Because between the age of 10 and 13 is where NFL dreams are built. Come on, niner. And football was Chris's idea, not his dad. SI did a story on this. Howie never brought up football to his sons. They chose it on their own. This football class envy that keeps being displayed simply is not reality. The answer is yes, that would be an advantage...........unless of course those 4 years came from middle school. Not a lot of on-the-job training for 10 year olds, is there? Yes, that would be an advantage.......unless of course the dad isn't the head of the company, but just retired from the industry, and never mentioned the family business to me until I was in middle school and decided on my own to pursue it. Wow, not quite there yet, are we? I thought Vernon Gholston was an athletic freak compared to the real estate agent softball league physicality of Chris Long? You can't coach athleticism, so wouldn't that in fact put Gholston at an ADvantage over Chris Long?

    So, having established that Vernon Gholston was at a huge advantage to Chris Long even before he ever thought about playing football, it is truly amazing that he has advanced this much in such a short time. Long has outperformed Gholston on the field, and equaled his position specific efforts in the drills. This is a complete misrepresentation and you know it. I have said over and over and over and over again that IF Chris Long is gone at #1, then I am all for taking Vernon Gholston. He's a great player, and my choice for the #2 option. However, nothing that I've seen makes me believe that he is better than Chris Long for this defense. What makes you sure? There's plenty of HOF dads whose kids never played in the NFL. I didn't say anything. Take it up with nfl.com.... I will once again make my obligatory statement: If Chris Long is gone, draft Vernon Gholston @ 2.

    I'm all for it. He would do a great job for this defense. I'd celebrate by doing the dance of a thousand monkeys. Gholston is the best pure pass rusher in the draft and would be an asset for this defense.

    However, he's not the complete player that Long is. He hasn't shown the run stopping ability of Long. He hasn't shown the awareness or instincts of Long. And his reward might be a 9, but his risk is an 8. Long's reward is also a 9, but his risk is more like a 4. Why chose high risk / high reward when moderate risk / high reward is staring you in the face?




    First off, dreams are an individual thing, there's no definitive age for when an individual decides to pursue football. Come on Hub, you know that.

    Secondly, if you believe Chris Long was not influenced by his HOF dad you're only kidding yourself. Not even Chris himself could convince me of that.

    Thirdly, you can paint any picture and make up all the scenarios you want to make it appear that Vernon Gholston had any advantages over Chris Long, but you know, that I know, that you know, that I know, it's all hogwash.

    Long has outperformed Gholston on the field? I'd say that's a matter of opinion. Stats are important, but far from definitive in measuring a player's performance on the field.

    Nothing you've seen makes you believe that he is better for this defense? I suppose being the best pure pass rusher in the draft is just water under the bridge, even though a pass rusher is our greatest need?

    He was removed from the defense in High School because he couldn't absorb the playbook. And a guy by the name of Michael Jordan apparently couldn't play basketball, according to his high school coach.

    What makes me sure that Gholston would probably be more advanced in his mental approach to the game had he had a HOF dad to rely on? Oh I don't know...logic I guess.

    There's plenty of HOFamers kids who didn't play in the NFL. And? Maybe they didn't have the ability.

    Why choose High risk/ high reward over moderate risk/high reward? Because in this case, we're talking about a possible much higher reward.
    Last edited by Fortuninerhater; -04-16-2008 at 12:50 AM.

  5. #80
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    But why ask the question if the better fit (Chris Long) is available?
    Agreed...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    But, Nick, you know as well as I do, with such a high pick, no stone can go unturned. If he had a problem with a high school defensive playbook, the question has to at least be asked.
    I'm really not convinced it does. We're talking about a sixteen year old high school sophomore. If it was part of a trend of continued difficulty throughout his football career, then it might be relevant. Right now, I don't think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    As big a mistake as drafting him ahead of a better player with more experience?
    Again, no. I've said for a while Chris Long is the top person on my board. My response wasn't suggesting taking Gholston ahead of him. I'm simply questioning some of the statements made about Gholston in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    And UNDERrated? Nick, most everyone agrees he's the best pure pass rusher in the draft. It's his pass rush abilities that will make him a top 6 pick. How is he an underrated pass rusher?
    Except I didn't say he was an underrated pass rusher. I said I thought his versatility as a pass rusher is underrated because he's not just a speed guy - he can use power as well. I think some people this offseason, here and elsewhere, have reduced him to just being a speed rusher.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Locally, are you willing to swallow that "IF" to the tune of $30M guaranteed with Chris Long still on the table?
    But again, that's not the case. Just because I'm debating you on these issues on Gholston doesn't mean I want to take Gholston ahead of Long. We don't disagree there - Chris Long has been on top of my board for months now. I'm simply responding when I disagree about other things I see regarding Gholston.
    Last edited by Nick; -04-16-2008 at 02:12 AM.
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  6. #81
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    But again, that's not the case. Just because I'm debating you on these issues on Gholston doesn't mean I want to take Gholston ahead of Long. We don't disagree there - Chris Long has been on top of my board for months now. I'm simply responding when I disagree about other things I see regarding Gholston.
    So then ultimately we agree on the big picture. Ours is just a matter of nuances. Very well, sounds good to me.
    Except I didn't say he was an underrated pass rusher. I said I thought his versatility as a pass rusher is underrated because he's not just a speed guy - he can use power as well. I think some people this offseason, here and elsewhere, have reduced him to just being a speed rusher.
    Please note I am not of the number who said he is purely a speed rusher. So to his versatility AS a rusher.......sure it's present. His LEO position would require versatility as a pass rusher, so to that I have no question. His versatility as a pure 4-3 End though......
    I'm really not convinced it does. We're talking about a sixteen year old high school sophomore. If it was part of a trend of continued difficulty throughout his football career, then it might be relevant. Right now, I don't think it is.
    Yet elsewhere, I'm having to argue against the idea that the body of football knowledge reaped between the ages of 10 to 13 doesn't dictate a potential ceiling at the age of 22. lol

    Nick, with this high a pick, there is no question that shouldn't be explored. The answer may be perfectly acceptable, but I want to know that those playbook problems have been overcome. Now here is a point I will make for you.......in the Haslett D, most likely he either plays a true Rush End, which sticks him in one place, and theoritically limit his movement and the intensity of the playbook required to learn in comparison to the LEO position; OR, he plays the Buck End which would be fairly similar to LEO and require less transition. Either way may actually ease his transition.......maybe.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #82
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by niner
    First off, dreams are an individual thing, there's no definitive age for when an individual decides to pursue football. Come on Hub, you know that.
    Actually there is a definitive age. It's the age he was when he first said, "Hey, I want to play football." According to the SI interview, that was after they moved to Virginia when he was 10.
    Secondly, if you believe Chris Long was not influenced by his HOF dad you're only kidding yourself. Not even Chris himself could convince me of that.
    Not even Chris could convince you of anything............of THAT I'm sure.
    Thirdly, you can paint any picture and make up all the scenarios you want to make it appear that Vernon Gholston had any advantages over Chris Long, but you know, that I know, that you know, that I know, it's all hogwash.
    Okay, let me see if I got this........Gholston is a physical freak whose athleticism pales that of Chris Long. But that's not an advantage? Niner, I won't even pretend to assume what you know.
    Long has outperformed Gholston on the field? I'd say that's a matter of opinion. Stats are important, but far from definitive in measuring a player's performance on the field.
    I can't blame you. If I was trying to argue for the inferior concept, I'd call it all opinion as well. However, that's fine. Here's a few opinions that would agree with me........Mel Kiper, Scott Wright, Mike Mayock, Todd McShay, Nick, etc. But hey, what do they know?
    Nothing you've seen makes you believe that he is better for this defense? I suppose being the best pure pass rusher in the draft is just water under the bridge, even though a pass rusher is our greatest need?
    But is the difference in pass rushing ability between Gholston and Long so great that it compensates for lagging behind Long as a run stopper and consistency?
    He was removed from the defense in High School because he couldn't absorb the playbook. And a guy by the name of Michael Jordan apparently couldn't play basketball, according to his high school coach.
    But what about all the guys who couldn't absorb a high school playbook and couldn't play professionally? I'll list them alphabetically......Bobby Aamlie, Ken Aarestad, Bill Aaron, Curtis Aaron, Damon Aaron, Don Aasby, Doug Aasby, Chales Ababio.....(4,543,987 other guys)......James Zwicky, Kevin Zwingle, and finally, Patrick Zysk.
    What makes me sure that Gholston would probably be more advanced in his mental approach to the game had he had a HOF dad to rely on? Oh I don't know...logic I guess.
    I'm going to assume you meant Long, as I don't think Gholston's dad is in the NFL Hall of Fame. That aside, I'm not even sure where your question is coming from, as I've never argued that Long ISN'T mentally advanced in his approach to football. In fact, that's just another reason Chris Long is the better prospect.
    There's plenty of HOFamers kids who didn't play in the NFL. And? Maybe they didn't have the ability.
    But their dads were HOFers.......I thought that put them at an advantage over other kids? Or was it because they were doomed to not improve past their 22nd birthday?
    Why choose High risk/ high reward over moderate risk/high reward? Because in this case, we're talking about a possible much higher reward.
    Speaking of opinions.....

    Other than your assumption that Vernon Gholston WILL explode over the next two years, what do you base this on? I've yet to see any analysis that defines Gholston's potential as a "much higher reward" in comparison to Long, so as a perpetual student of the game, I am much interested in your insight on this analysis.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #83
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Actually there is a definitive age. It's the age he was when he first said, "Hey, I want to play football." According to the SI interview, that was after they moved to Virginia when he was 10. Not even Chris could convince you of anything............of THAT I'm sure. Okay, let me see if I got this........Gholston is a physical freak whose athleticism pales that of Chris Long. But that's not an advantage? Niner, I won't even pretend to assume what you know. I can't blame you. If I was trying to argue for the inferior concept, I'd call it all opinion as well. However, that's fine. Here's a few opinions that would agree with me........Mel Kiper, Scott Wright, Mike Mayock, Todd McShay, Nick, etc. But hey, what do they know? But is the difference in pass rushing ability between Gholston and Long so great that it compensates for lagging behind Long as a run stopper and consistency? But what about all the guys who couldn't absorb a high school playbook and couldn't play professionally? I'll list them alphabetically......Bobby Aamlie, Ken Aarestad, Bill Aaron, Curtis Aaron, Damon Aaron, Don Aasby, Doug Aasby, Chales Ababio.....(4,543,987 other guys)......James Zwicky, Kevin Zwingle, and finally, Patrick Zysk. I'm going to assume you meant Long, as I don't think Gholston's dad is in the NFL Hall of Fame. That aside, I'm not even sure where your question is coming from, as I've never argued that Long ISN'T mentally advanced in his approach to football. In fact, that's just another reason Chris Long is the better prospect. But their dads were HOFers.......I thought that put them at an advantage over other kids? Or was it because they were doomed to not improve past their 22nd birthday? Speaking of opinions.....

    Other than your assumption that Vernon Gholston WILL explode over the next two years, what do you base this on? I've yet to see any analysis that defines Gholston's potential as a "much higher reward" in comparison to Long, so as a perpetual student of the game, I am much interested in your insight on this analysis.

    We'll revisit this arguement in two years. Or maybe we can follow them game by game this season and compare. That ought to be fun.

    But for now, I'm content that there really is nothing else to add as it relates to this subject.

  9. #84
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    We'll revisit this arguement in two years. Or maybe we can follow them game by game this season and compare. That ought to be fun.

    But for now, I'm content that there really is nothing else to add as it relates to this subject.
    Oh, alright, fine. But it was fun while it lasted.......and only 10 days til the draft.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #85
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    May I have your attention please?!

    First, I want to thank you all for the very interesting banter and education concerning the abilities and inabilities of Chris Long and Vernon Gholston.

    Second, what happens if we draft Jake Long or Glenn Dorsey?

    I'm assuming this entire thread hits the circular file?

    Thank you for your undivided attention.

    :r:l:bash:

  11. #86
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    So then ultimately we agree on the big picture. Ours is just a matter of nuances. Very well, sounds good to me.
    Basically what it comes down to is around this point in the year, I'll argue about anything and everything just to be able to talk more about the draft.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    His versatility as a pure 4-3 End though......
    I remember reading a quote about Jake Long's preparations for blocking Gholston, and he said something like, "I prepared for speed but I faced power." I think Gholston has incredible strength, both upper and lower body. I think that'll serve him well as a 4-3 defensive end, because he not only has the speed to loop the edge of the line but he also has the power to play with leverage and power through a block.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Nick, with this high a pick, there is no question that shouldn't be explored. The answer may be perfectly acceptable, but I want to know that those playbook problems have been overcome.
    Okay, but what part of his career after that leads you to believe they haven't? His ability to return to the defensive side of the ball as a senior and succeed seems to suggest it was no longer an issue.
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  12. #87
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    Re: Thomas on 1380: It's down to the two Longs

    Im about done with the argument on Gholston vs Long. I know we would be more versitile and menacing with Gholston...but no matter who we take, we still have Cuberson at OLB and a ? at corner. Whomever we get (and again I feel that gholston is the best fit), it better help our line get to the qb in less than 2.5 secs. I watched the tapes of the SEA- both hoe and away from last year. There were 10 off pass plays were Hasslebeck/backup had more than 4 sec to find a reciever.....he completed 9...one was dropped........of the 9 completed...3 were for tds...4 for first downs ...and the last set up a winning field goal. My point is, with the Eagles, Seahawks, Patriots and Redskins on the road and the Giants and Cowboys at home in the 1st eight games, if we dont fix this pressure issue, We will be going back and forth next March talking about draft possibilities in the 1st 30 minutes of the draft.
    I dont know if I can take this another year.

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