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Thread: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey View Post
    six offensive line combos in the final 8 weeks. Major injury time lost to four offensive linemen out of our five starters. An average starting age of 29.4 years. Our line was so bad and so injured at the end of the season we managed a hall of shame worthy 0.7 ypc in week 17 @ seattle. After we averaged 5.4ypc at home eight games before that. We had yet again the worst offense in our division.

    Nobody will dispute that our defense in the second half of the year grew leaps and bounds. The young players matured, the coaches fixed game plan problems and over all we saw much better performance later in the year. There are some obvious needs on defense for certain not denying that.

    With all that said it continues to amaze me that rams fans want to create reasons and excuses for thinking the rams should address the defense in the draft and free agency. That the line will turn itself around with an off season of work together. All the sudden these older players will stay healthy for a change. It's also interesting the logic that a 3rd or 6th round pick on the oline will suffice but we must spend a 1st rounder on defense. Value can be found on late round oline picks. The same logic can be used in reverse. Value can be found late round on defense as well therefore we should spend high round picks on offense. See how easy that is

    please for the love of all things football stop trying to tell us what fisher will or won't do because of what happened when he took over coaching a team in houston 20 years ago. He did not have the player control then that he does now so you're comparing fisher and snead now to the gm at the time fisher took over in houston. We also see that tennessee did in fact only spend later round picks on the oline, we also see that in the final few years of his tenure there the oline wasn't anywhere near as strong as the line he took over.

    I for one hope we address the oline early and often in the draft. We gave sjax garbage to run behind. We gave marc bulger garbage to block for him and it ruined his career. We didn't even give warner much to block for him and it nearly ruined his career. I am so sick and tired of making due with scraps and mid round picks or early round projects for the oline. It's time to make the line a strength of this team and not waste zac stacy's talents and lets try to keep sam bradford upright and healthy.
    this^^^^^^^


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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    Six offensive line combos in the final 8 weeks. Major injury time lost to four offensive linemen out of our five starters. An average starting age of 29.4 years. Our line was so bad and so injured at the end of the season we managed a hall of shame worthy 0.7 ypc in week 17 @ seattle. After we averaged 5.4ypc at home eight games before that. We had yet again the worst offense in our division.

    Nobody will dispute that our defense in the second half of the year grew leaps and bounds. The young players matured, the coaches fixed game plan problems and over all we saw much better performance later in the year. There are some obvious needs on defense for certain not denying that.

    With all that said it continues to amaze me that Rams fans want to create reasons and excuses for thinking the Rams should address the defense in the draft and free agency. That the line will turn itself around with an off season of work together. All the sudden these older players will stay healthy for a change. It's also interesting the logic that a 3rd or 6th round pick on the OLine will suffice but we must spend a 1st rounder on defense. Value can be found on late round OLine picks. The same logic can be used in reverse. Value can be found late round on defense as well therefore we should spend high round picks on offense. See how easy that is

    Please for the love of all things football stop trying to tell us what Fisher will or won't do because of what happened when he took over coaching a team in Houston 20 years ago. He did not have the player control then that he does now so you're comparing Fisher and Snead now to the GM at the time Fisher took over in Houston. We also see that Tennessee did in fact only spend later round picks on the OLine, we also see that in the final few years of his tenure there the OLine wasn't anywhere near as strong as the line he took over.

    I for one hope we address the OLine early and often in the draft. We gave SJax garbage to run behind. We gave Marc Bulger garbage to block for him and it ruined his career. We didn't even give Warner much to block for him and it nearly ruined his career. I am so sick and tired of making due with scraps and mid round picks or early round projects for the OLine. It's time to make the line a strength of this team and not waste Zac Stacy's talents and lets try to keep Sam Bradford upright and healthy.
    I can't argue with drafting O-line late could be said the same for drafting defense late. You do make a good point.

    You say he didn't have the control then, but how do you know? For 17 years Fisher sat back without any player control? Does he really seem like he would be that kind of coach, to just sit back and be fine with everyone else making the decisions for him? What do you base this off of? Vince Young? A single player the Owner of the team wanted? But of course now that he has "more power" here he will draft many O-lineman early, though he hasn't at all in his first two years here, so of course you know he will do it this year right....I am also tired of people saying of course he will draft lineman early. So please, for the love of all things football, stop trying to tell me of what Fisher will or will not do, because of what control you think or do not think he had for 17 years as head coach of the Titans. See, that can work both ways. You have no idea what his player control was for those 17 except for the Vince Young incident, so stop acting like you know. I am going off stats and what he has actually done, you are going off of nothing but your beliefs and what you think. Your opinion, without any basis behind it.

    If he does draft O-Line early this year, i will be happy, but until he does, i'm not buying into it, its that simple.
    Last edited by Tampa_Ram; -01-31-2014 at 11:04 PM.


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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tampa_Ram View Post
    I can't argue with drafting O-line late could be said the same for drafting defense late. You do make a good point.

    You say he didn't have the control then, but how do you know? For 17 years Fisher sat back without any player control? Does he really seem like he would be that kind of coach, to just sit back and be fine with everyone else making the decisions for him? What do you base this off of? Vince Young? A single player the Owner of the team wanted? But of course now that he has "more power" here he will draft many O-lineman early, though he hasn't at all in his first two years here, so of course you know he will do it this year right....I am also tired of people saying of course he will draft lineman early. So please, for the love of all things football, stop trying to tell me of what Fisher will or will not do, because of what control you think or do not think he had for 17 years as head coach of the Titans. See, that can work both ways. You have no idea what his player control was for those 17 except for the Vince Young incident, so stop acting like you know. I am going off stats and what he has actually done, you are going off of nothing but your beliefs and what you think. Your opinion, without any basis behind it.

    If he does draft O-Line early this year, i will be happy, but until he does, i'm not buying into it, its that simple.
    Most first time NFL coaches do not get that kind of control unless they were head coaches in college. Just doesn't happen. Then we look at the Titans team when Fisher assumed the head coach their Executive VP/General Manager was Floyd Reese. Reese took that job being promoted from Assistant GM the same year. A first year GM isn't going to give up player/draft decisions to a first year coach. Then if we look back to when Reese left the Titans there are many articles, there is even a notation about it on his wikipedia page. Reese had many disputes with Bud Adams and Fisher over the direction of the team. Fisher wanted more control of the draft. Reese saw the righting on the wall and resigned. He has the most wins of any GM in Oilers/Titans history. As you say I don't know all the details but there is plenty of evidence that until 2006 Reese had player/draft control, Fisher wanted it and Reese ended up leaving knowing Adams wouldn't extend his contract.

    My instincts from looking at what went down in the past with them in Houston/Tennessee tells me not to read anything into "Fishers" draft history because it looks like it was Reese's.

    I usually like your mocks and your insights about the Rams Tampa and I wasn't trying to attack you personally. This is going to be a long couple months until the draft happens. I'm already worn out with the conjecture of what the Rams should and will do. Again no offense but looking back I think a lot of people are interpreting the past wrong.

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    Most first time NFL coaches do not get that kind of control unless they were head coaches in college. Just doesn't happen. Then we look at the Titans team when Fisher assumed the head coach their Executive VP/General Manager was Floyd Reese. Reese took that job being promoted from Assistant GM the same year. A first year GM isn't going to give up player/draft decisions to a first year coach. Then if we look back to when Reese left the Titans there are many articles, there is even a notation about it on his wikipedia page. Reese had many disputes with Bud Adams and Fisher over the direction of the team. Fisher wanted more control of the draft. Reese saw the righting on the wall and resigned. He has the most wins of any GM in Oilers/Titans history. As you say I don't know all the details but there is plenty of evidence that until 2006 Reese had player/draft control, Fisher wanted it and Reese ended up leaving knowing Adams wouldn't extend his contract.

    My instincts from looking at what went down in the past with them in Houston/Tennessee tells me not to read anything into "Fishers" draft history because it looks like it was Reese's.

    I usually like your mocks and your insights about the Rams Tampa and I wasn't trying to attack you personally. This is going to be a long couple months until the draft happens. I'm already worn out with the conjecture of what the Rams should and will do. Again no offense but looking back I think a lot of people are interpreting the past wrong.
    It's all good my brother, we all have our opinions. Sorry if i seemed to be attacking back at you, but your post had some attack in it from what i saw, but still all good. I understood what you were saying and understand more in this last comment. lol It will probably only get worse as the draft gets closer, especially with them changing the draft to May. Like you I am already getting worn out about the whole thing, and so much time till it actually happens. It's horrible.

    I can't disagree with the facts you bring to your argument involving Reese, I think you should have made them in your first comment, but glad you made them eventually none the less. Having said that, still after Matthews and Hopkins retired and were gone, Fisher still didn't draft O-lineman early.

    I knew i was going to catch some heat from this post, and to be honest, rightfully so. Still, i will bring up Fisher not drafting lineman in his first two years with control of this team, and draft. Maybe this year will be the year he changes that, and i do hope so, as I have stated many times, but i just cant buy into that until it actually happens, just hard headed that way i guess.

    It's good that a lot of us disagree at times, even if we do, we still want the team to succeed regardless. No hard feeling in all of this.

    p.s. This draft, especially the leading up to it, is going to cause many arguments lol, it's going to suck.


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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tampa_Ram View Post
    It's all good my brother, we all have our opinions. Sorry if i seemed to be attacking back at you, but your post had some attack in it from what i saw, but still all good. I understood what you were saying and understand more in this last comment. lol It will probably only get worse as the draft gets closer, especially with them changing the draft to May. Like you I am already getting worn out about the whole thing, and so much time till it actually happens. It's horrible.

    I can't disagree with the facts you bring to your argument involving Reese, I think you should have made them in your first comment, but glad you made them eventually none the less. Having said that, still after Matthews and Hopkins retired and were gone, Fisher still didn't draft O-lineman early.

    I knew i was going to catch some heat from this post, and to be honest, rightfully so. Still, i will bring up Fisher not drafting lineman in his first two years with control of this team, and draft. Maybe this year will be the year he changes that, and i do hope so, as I have stated many times, but i just cant buy into that until it actually happens, just hard headed that way i guess.

    It's good that a lot of us disagree at times, even if we do, we still want the team to succeed regardless. No hard feeling in all of this.

    p.s. This draft, especially the leading up to it, is going to cause many arguments lol, it's going to suck.
    Hah I'm with you on that! I'm thinking it might be wise to take a week or two off from work and not even turn on the PC for me. I generally take opening week of baseball off to watch as much early as I can because the summer months are very busy for me at work. I know this off season more than others I'm going to either give myself grey hairs(read more) reading and pondering stuff, or I'm going to end up pulling hairs out.
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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Two points people forget ...McNair was mobile ...and the NFL is now an offensive league..Fisher will a Adapta Adapt

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Appreciate the post, Tampa! Don't perceive my response as the flack you were expecting, but just some friendly responses to points you bring up.

    To springboard off of a point someone else made, Warford even being on the Rams' board as a potential first round pick - after Datone Jones was selected, it would have been down to Ogletree and Warford at that point - seems to dispel any suggestion that Fisher's previous draft history of having not taken guards before a certain round isn't a hard line approach.

    I think we need to simply stay away from the "Well he's never drafted _______ in the first round before," because there is more nuance that demonstrates why and suggests it's not just some blanket restriction against the position.

    The Rams could draft a tackle for numerous long term reasons. One, the Rams may see the writing on the wall with Jake Long, whom they were concerned about medically prior to signing him and is now recovering from a serious injury. It would be advantageous to have his replacement in house, training up and preparing himself to take that job when the time comes (could be as soon as after 2014).

    But also, while Joe Barksdale played well in 2013, he did so over the course of what was about 12 games based on his snap count. It's a small sample size to conclude that his play demonstrates the Rams couldn't benefit from an upgrade, and let's be honest, if the Rams do draft a tackle in the first round, it's unlikely that guy sits so that Joe Barksdale can play. A first round OT turns Barksdale into the type of OL depth we as fans have wished the Rams have had in recent years.

    Frankly, I just don't find a lot of merit to arguments against a first round OT that depend heavily on examining Fisher's draft history. When I look at teams like San Francisco and Seattle, I see defenses that have the potential to really make life tough for a quarterback. The Rams may have a solid OL now, but I think they'll have a better chance of overtaking the top teams in this division by having a great OL that can neutralize San Fran and Seattle's pass rushers.

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Two points people forget ...McNair was mobile ...and the NFL is now an offensive league..Fisher will a Adapta Adapt
    Tell that to the Seahawks...


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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Appreciate the post, Tampa! Don't perceive my response as the flack you were expecting, but just some friendly responses to points you bring up.

    To springboard off of a point someone else made, Warford even being on the Rams' board as a potential first round pick - after Datone Jones was selected, it would have been down to Ogletree and Warford at that point - seems to dispel any suggestion that Fisher's previous draft history of having not taken guards before a certain round isn't a hard line approach.

    I think we need to simply stay away from the "Well he's never drafted _______ in the first round before," because there is more nuance that demonstrates why and suggests it's not just some blanket restriction against the position.

    The Rams could draft a tackle for numerous long term reasons. One, the Rams may see the writing on the wall with Jake Long, whom they were concerned about medically prior to signing him and is now recovering from a serious injury. It would be advantageous to have his replacement in house, training up and preparing himself to take that job when the time comes (could be as soon as after 2014).

    But also, while Joe Barksdale played well in 2013, he did so over the course of what was about 12 games based on his snap count. It's a small sample size to conclude that his play demonstrates the Rams couldn't benefit from an upgrade, and let's be honest, if the Rams do draft a tackle in the first round, it's unlikely that guy sits so that Joe Barksdale can play. A first round OT turns Barksdale into the type of OL depth we as fans have wished the Rams have had in recent years.

    Frankly, I just don't find a lot of merit to arguments against a first round OT that depend heavily on examining Fisher's draft history. When I look at teams like San Francisco and Seattle, I see defenses that have the potential to really make life tough for a quarterback. The Rams may have a solid OL now, but I think they'll have a better chance of overtaking the top teams in this division by having a great OL that can neutralize San Fran and Seattle's pass rushers.
    All good Nick, i know you always present a good point of view without flack in it.

    I am more against a tackle in the first because i view that we already have our starting tackles, and that Fisher expects both of them to start still.

    Let's say Saffold leaves, which a lot of people think will happen, I would have no problem drafting both Matthews and Martin in the first, or at the least, Matthews or Martin in the 1st and a tackle in the 2nd to play guard, or a guard in the 3rd. We do need a stronger line, i don't think anyone can deny that, especailly till we know whether or not Saffold will be a Ram next year.

    If he does stay, then basically LG is our biggest need, which i could see being taken care of in either FA, or the draft between the 1st and the 5th rounds.

    Basically I just wouldn't take a tackle to play outside in the 1st. I really don't see a need for it.

    This is a very hard topic for me, because I am arguing against something I want lol.

    A couple picks in the early round who could play guard and tackle are ideal. One if Saffold stays, two if he goes. If he stays i still want a tackle and guard drafted later.


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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tampa_Ram View Post
    Basically I just wouldn't take a tackle to play outside in the 1st. I really don't see a need for it.
    That's where we ultimately disagree. I see a need for it because I don't think Jake Long is the long-term answer for this team at left tackle. Injuries continue to be an issue for him, and I think the Rams would be wise to get his eventual replacement in house if they have the chance to do so. That player would also provide an immediate upgrade over Joe Barksdale in the short term, and would replace Jake at left tackle perhaps as early as 2015.

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    Fix the OL. If that means 2 first round OL then do it. Just get it fixed!

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    If we traded down from #2 to the 6-10 range and drafted Greg Robinson I would be ecstatic. He could play outside until Long came back and would be a cheaper upgrade over Saffold at RG. He is a dominate down hill run blocker and would be great in our scheme. When Barksdale's contract expires he could be moved back out to RT

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post
    Also, craig dahl still sucks.

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    I see the huge upside in Robinson and get all the love he's getting he's an absolute beast in the run game. He just has too many questions to me in the passing game. If we take a tackle in the 1st, which I've said many times I hope we do, He likely will have to move to LT in a year or two as well as play there some this year. I just don't know if I want to trust Robinson there. Prior Rams GM's drafted too much on upside and swung and missed for me to want to try it with so important a position as what likely will have to be a LT.

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    OK-- so we all would be happy with Matthews at 2, then at 13 we take-- whomever is there-- Robinson, Lewan, or some power guard like Richardson or Yankey.

    Then in rd 2 we take Richardson, Yankey or Swanson. Hows that sound?

    It seems every year for the last 10 years the Rams have had a glaring need for X, Y, Z. Then they seemingly shore up that need via FA or the draft, yet the next year yet another glaring need pops up.

    This year it seems outr needs our OL, FS, and...... perhaps the most overlooked--- WR.
    When can we catch a break?
    Last edited by punahou; -02-03-2014 at 01:29 PM.

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    Re: Time to catch some flack. No OT/OG early!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    The Rams have drafted 17 linemen after round two since 2000.
    Harvey Dahl - undrafted
    Scott Wells - 7th round draft pick
    Joe Barksdale - 3rd round

    3 of the 5 starting linemen last year entered the league as a post 2nd round pick.

    Andy McCollum - undrafted
    Adam Timmerman - 7th round

    There is massive talent beyond the 1st and 2nd round.
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