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Thread: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

  1. #16
    Barry Waller is offline Registered User
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    When I look at Vaccaros HIGHLIGHT FILM below, I see a guy making good tackles sideline to sideline and occasionally a big hit in the hole. WHat I don't see is him covering anyone, just them catching balls wide open an him tackling them. I see a Box safety with no ball skills or man coverage ability.

    I see Toby Wright, I see John Lych, without the instincts and character and 15 pounds lighter and 2 inches shorter . I see a smaller, slower Bernard Pollard. I see only a strong safety and a smallish one without great speed.

    You can get a college linebacker like Pisa Tinoisamoa, or even a John Alston, that can play Box safety, but they get exposed in coverage. So will Vaccaro.

    No way he plays like a free safety, with no really big plays, sacks, interceptions etc.

    He also leads with his helmet, a lot, which won't fly in the NFL. I don't see him being able to take the pounding at SS either. He's a pumped up 213 pounds on a 195 pound frame.

    I'd be all over him....in round TWO, but not in round one, with the talent available instead at other positions.

    You are not going to take him over the guys rated bottom 15 round one: Ogletree, Werner, Patterson, Austin, Hunter, Hopkins, Rhodes, Hunt, Fluker, Warmack, Manuel, Barkley, EIfert, Trufant, Sylvester Williams, D. Jones, or Sam Montgomery, and maybe not even Eric Reid, the best real free safety in the draft. Some would put CBs Banks and Hayden and DT K Short ahead of Vaccaro, and maybe even Eddie Lacey or OT Armstead and Watson .

    Kenny Vaccaro 2012 Senior Highlights - YouTube
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    Barry Waller

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    <<Considering I projected Laurinaitis to the Rams in the second round in my final mock draft of 2009, I'm going to disagree with you on that statement:>>

    Right and WHY would you put one of the most heralded college MLB ever in round two? WIth all that big play production and awards?

    You did it because of 1. His measurables, size/speed, and 2. because in a strong draft he got pushed down to round two out of sheer numbers and t he position he played.

    Same thing with Vaccaro. He might go to the Niners, with lots of picks and huge need, and I HOPE Dallas takes him at 18, or the Steelers at 17, leaving a better player for the Rams at 22.

    I just think he doesn't fit what I think the Rams need, a tall, rangy, fast, ball hawking FS that makes PLAYS, and takes the ball away.

    I like the second round safeties as much as I do Vaccaro, and you don't have to pay them as much.

    As a box safety, Elam is better, so is Cyprien.
    As a cover safety Reid is better, And so is Shamarko Thomas

    Maybe Vaccaro gets top nod for being best overall, but the Rams don't want all around, they want a stud free safety like Ed Reed, Earl Thomas, Eric Weddle, Ryan Clark, Dashon Golson, Thomas De Coud.

    I compare Vaccaro to Jairus Byrd, if you must use a smallish, slow FS. But Byrd had 17 picks in college, and has been making big plays since HS. He has 18 NFL picks, doing what he did in college, with terricic ball skills.

    Byrd had it all, except measurables, and he went 42nd as a result.
    Barry Waller

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    Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    DId some one really say UNOFFICIAL forty? Sorry, they don't count, and at the combine they were off by a LOT on unofficial times.

    The way I see it the combine is everyone running on the same surface, same conditions, so I value THAT time the most even over pro days, unless a guy was hurt or sick at the combine.

    Vaccaro is a 4.6 forty guy at BEST, at 6ft 213, with no way to get bigger. He's pumped up NOW with that Texas weight program.

    Again, NO free safety prospect has been drafted in round one in 10 years with these poor measurables and lack of interception or return ability. At some positions, these are make or break numbers to scouts, and DB is at the top of that list. It's a fast league. EVEN TEs run 4.4 forties.

    As far as Barron, he was a STRONG safety, and he had 12 picks in college. He also has STRUGGLED mightily in pass coverage since being drafted. He's also listed at 6-1 1/8, and his arm length is 1-1/8" longer than Vaccaro as well.

    Barron didn't have any off field baggage either, and got a 10 on intangibles and work ethic. His teams won 2 national Championships as well with him as a captain. That got him overdrafted.
    I'd rather judge a potential prospect with what he produces against top rated talent than by measurables alone.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Vaccaro's time wasn't great, but I don't think it's as negative as you believe it is,

    Really, Well, show me one DB since 2003, ONE who had that size/ speed 6-0 and 4.6 who was picked in round one at all. ONE.

    Is this guy so different than all those other step slow box safeties that didn't make round one in ten years??
    Taylor Mays went round two for not being good enough in coverage, and he is 6-3 and ran 4.45 and even better.

    Lawyer Milloy ran 4.43 at 6-0 207, and HE lasted till round two, Patrick Chung ran 4.43 and was round two, Tracy Porter ran 4.37 and was round two, Daniel Bullocks ran under 4.5, and went round two.

    You wanna see who Vaccaro is ? Look up Cedric Griffin, a great Texas safety who went round two, because he ran 4.51 at the combine. And he was 6-1. Same poor interception and sack numbers in college.

    The Longhorns have had a ton of DBs go the last ten years, and go high, and most have been a dissapointment after lots of Texas hype.

    Compare Vaccaro to Michael Griffin, who went 19th overall in 2007. Griffin Ran 4.45, and he had 7 picks in college as well as being a good return guy. If Vaccaro was close to what Griffin is, yea, he'd be worth the
    22nd pick, maybe.

    But beware that Texas hype, unless the guys has the measurables, the God given gifts you can't coach.

    You don't take smallish SS in round one, or slow FS or CB. By slow I mean over 4.5, let alone 4.6 plus.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    >>I'd rather judge a potential prospect with what he produces against top rated talent than by measurables alone. >.

    Sorry, you don't risk a #1 and millions of guaranteed dollars on EITHER just a production guy OR just a measurables guy.

    First rounders, especially high ones, need to have both, but physical ability and spped will weigh far heavier than production if a guy has just one.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    No one though JAmes LAurin aitis would ever get out of round one either, a far better college player than Vaccaro.

    It just happens, when guys don't have round one measurables and are perceived as having a low ceiling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    Right and WHY would you put one of the most heralded college MLB ever in round two? WIth all that big play production and awards?

    You did it because of 1. His measurables, size/speed, and 2. because in a strong draft he got pushed down to round two out of sheer numbers and t he position he played.
    You're changing the argument. First you claim no one expected Laurinaitis to fall, then when I showed you we actually did, now you claim there are reasons why people expected it.

    If you go back and search this Draft forum, we fans were talking about the possibility of Laurinaitis in the second round a month before the actual draft. Heck, I found posts of mine from the beginning of March of that year talking about it as a possibility. Clearly it wasn't that big of a surprise.

    That's the difference between that situation and Vaccaro. Very few people are expecting that kind of fall for Kenny despite what you perceive as similar lack of ideal measureables. To give you some examples, here are just a few mocks that have Vaccaro in the mid first round range that you think is such objectionable value: ESPN's Mel Kiper (16) & Todd McShay (13); CBS Sports' Rob Rang (19) & Pat Kirwan (16); NFL.com's Daniel Jeremiah (16), Bucky Brooks (18), Josh Norris (10), Charles Davis (17), Gil Brandt (15), and Scott Pioli (10); National Football Post's Russ Lande (18); and Sporting News and Optimum Scouting's Eric Galko (19). To add to that, there are Dallas writers who are writing about Vaccaro as if he might not be there for the Cowboys to select him @ 18.

    So clearly there is some room for conflicting opinions on Vaccaro. I have no idea who is going to be right; I think a lot of it is going to depend on where he ends up going. While you obviously don't think very highly of Vaccaro as a first round prospect (that's fine, everyone is welcome to their opinions), I think you have to come to terms with the fact that there are a lot of people out there that disagree and view Vaccaro not only as the best safety in this class but also worthy of a Top 20 selection (see the above list). And I'm guessing most of them formed that opinion by watching video of Vaccaro's on-field production, same as you did.

    Point being, perhaps there have not been any safeties drafted recently in the first round with his specific combination of height and speed, but apparently there are a number of qualified people out there that do not believe that's a big enough factor to downgrade Vaccaro from being projected in the top two thirds of the first round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by "Barry Waller
    Maybe Vaccaro gets top nod for being best overall, but the Rams don't want all around, they want a stud free safety like Ed Reed
    Of course, Reed, after an amazing career at UM, dropped to the 24th pick because of a disappointing 40 time (4.57) and perceived lack of ideal size at 5'11, so measureables aren't everything.
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    >>I'd rather judge a potential prospect with what he produces against top rated talent than by measurables alone. >.

    Sorry, you don't risk a #1 and millions of guaranteed dollars on EITHER just a production guy OR just a measurables guy.

    First rounders, especially high ones, need to have both, but physical ability and spped will weigh far heavier than production if a guy has just one.
    Your right in 2003 when the Steelers drafted Troy Polamalu with the #16 pick was a HUGGGGGGGEEEE mistake because he's 5'10 right? OMG OMG there was more money tied into those draft picks back then than even what is given now to a 16th pick now a days. Give it a rest....
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    >>Your right in 2003 when the Steelers drafted Troy Polamalu with the #16 pick was a HUGGGGGGGEEEE mistake because he's 5'10 right? OMG OMG there was more money tied into those draft picks back then than even what is given now to a 16th pick now a days. Give it a rest....
    >>>

    Oh wow, some of you just don't get it at all. It's not JUST about HEIGHT. It's about size AND speed.
    Polamalu ran a 4.33 forty at his pro day. AND HE IS A STRONG SAFETY !!!!

    He also had superb ball skills. He was ten times the prospect Vaccaro is, and STILL went 16th

    The problem I have with Vaccaro is poor ball skills, very slow, and not very tall , the who;le package.
    I see it in his highlight videos, that he is NO Polamalu, no anyone from the last ten drafts at free safety.

    And I won't give it a rest, when I have the facts on my side. Again, I HOPE Vaccaro goes 17 , 18, hell even 10, because the Rams the get a better player.

    Mark my words, he won't be a top NFL FREE SAFETY, won't put up great interception or pass defense numbers. He's be a good in the box safety in the right scheme, something the Rams don't need or can find later in the draft.

    Again, name ONE 6ft DB who ran over 4.6 and got drafted in round one the last ten years, EVEN ONE.

    Most of those first round guys ran 4.4 or less, or were 6-2 or bigger, with ball skills AND hitting ability.

    And most did not have off field questions like Vaccaro.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Oh wow, so because Laurinaitis fell all the way to the THIRD pick in round two he was expected to drop out of round one. He was rated every bit as high as the bottom four or fibve in round one, and just dropped because teams go for need there with equally rated guys.

    And MLB get rated lower in ties, just like safeties, maybe more so with safeties.

    Most EVERYONE said Laurinaitis was a first round TALENT. He just got caught up in the numbers game.

    I don't see that as the fact with Vaccaro, and I would guess he isn't the first safety taken, maybe even not second or third.

    Maybe a team like Dallas lves him, and I hope t hey take him.

    There are two arguments about players, whether they WILL be a first rounder, and whether they DESERVE to be.

    Trung Canidate WAS a #1 , but was certainly not worthy of that selection
    Same for Tye Hill.

    Many guys at the top of round two are clearly first round talents in that as well as other drafts.

    Again, it's about value, and Vaccaro would not be a value at 16 or 22.

    He might be at 35, more likely around 40, at the top of my third tier of players.

    But he won't be a FS in the pros, not with limited length and speed.

    His lack of range would be huge in many schemes, and he'd be mediocre in deep double coverage.

    His linebacker speed is gonna see him beaten badly down the seam by faster, taller TEs, fast RBs, and WRs.

    In the box, on running downs, he'll be great, but does THAT warrant a #1 pick?

    I say it does not. If he runs under 4.5, his stock rises, but I don't see it happening without a good tailwind.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    Oh wow, so because Laurinaitis fell all the way to the THIRD pick in round two he was expected to drop out of round one. He was rated every bit as high as the bottom four or fibve in round one, and just dropped because teams go for need there with equally rated guys.

    And MLB get rated lower in ties, just like safeties, maybe more so with safeties.

    Most EVERYONE said Laurinaitis was a first round TALENT. He just got caught up in the numbers game.

    I don't see that as the fact with Vaccaro
    This is getting ridiculous, as you've gone full circle now. You went from saying no one thought Laurinaitis would ever get out of round one, to acknowledging multiple reasons why people would have thought it could happen, all the way back to once again implying it wasn't expected.

    Maybe you didn't expect it, as you referred to him at the time as a sure fire #1. But again, I've shown you a link showing that others did think it could happen, and I've also pointed out that members of this forum discussed the thought of him being there in round two more than a month before the actual draft. So it's pretty clear that some people did in fact think he could get our of the first round.

    But the important part of that revelation is how it affects the current discussion. The key difference between Laurinaitis and Vaccaro is, despite your opinion that he does not possess the necessary height/speed combination to be worthy of a first round pick, I provided a list of a dozen different individuals well known for their coverage of the draft, some of them with NFL personnel jobs on their resumes, who have projected Vaccaro not only as a first round pick but among the Top 20.

    Whereas Laurinaitis slipped to the point of being discussed as a possible round two option, these individuals are not dropping Vaccaro in their projections for the height/speed issues you have. In fact, a writer for ESPN Dallas is hoping Vaccaro doesn't run well at his pro day because it will improve his chances of dropping not to the second round but merely to pick #18.

    So, you can continue making haughty proclamations about the "facts" being on your side, or you can acknowledge that the draft is about reaching what you feel is the best conclusion possible based on subjective observations, and that reasonable people can arrive at different opinions.

    I respect and appreciate the years of work you've put in covering the draft, though that respect wanes significantly when you feel the need to demand it or hold that experience over the heads of others as a means of implying that your way of thinking is the only correct way, despite the fact that it's very easy to find other equally or even more qualified individuals who think differently.

    The most amusing part of this entire thread is that I'm not arguing with any certainty that Vaccaro is going to become a top player in this league; I'm humble enough to understand that I as a fan have no claim to superior knowledge about this process when even the best professionals get it wrong quite often. I have no idea whether Vaccaro will succeed or not. He very well may not. But from what I've seen, I think he is an incredibly talented player who, in the right circumstance, could be very effective in this league. As I've pointed out with my dozen citations, I'm apparently not alone in thinking that way.

    Only time will tell who is right. If Vaccaro busts out, I'm sure it won't be the first or last time that I or the dozen names I provided ended up being wrong. Just as, if he succeeds, it won't be the first or last time you end up being wrong, either.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-24-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post

    Again, name ONE 6ft DB who ran over 4.6 and got drafted in round one the last ten years, EVEN ONE.

    Most of those first round guys ran 4.4 or less, or were 6-2 or bigger, with ball skills AND hitting ability.
    I dont like these statements just because it has not happened before doesnt mean it cannot happen this time

    There's a first for everything

    Im just going to let you know there hasn't been a single Offensive Guard drafted in the last 10 years in the top 16 (pouncey is a center) but if Warmack lasts to 16 I dont think the Rams will consider the "no guard has been taken in the top 16 in last 10 years" argument


    Trends can always be bucked remember Fisher has never coached a team that drafted a first round offensive lineman and i can see that trend easily being bucked by Warmack and Cooper
    Last edited by BarronWade; -03-24-2013 at 11:53 AM.
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Wait, I thought the argument was whether or not Vacarro goes in round 1? Or am I reading the thread title incorrectly?


    If the discussion has spun to "will he be a top notch free safety?" Well, then shoot, I got no idea. While we're at it, let's discuss if Luke Joekel is going to be a top notch left tackle. That's something else that none of us know at this point.

    But as it at least appears, there's some people out there who get paid to do this stuff that think he might be worth their top pick.
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    I think he goes in the first round and also think the Rams might be able to make a trade with Dallas in the process. Dallas is bringing him in for a private work this week.

    He had a nice senior year, can't imagine him not being a first round pick. He was not a ball hawk in Texas only because they used him at the line and against the slot. He was not ask to sit back and play center field.


    In a very early mock draft, ESPN.com scouting guru projects Texas safety Kenny Vaccaro to the Dallas Cowboys at No. 19 overall.

    “Vaccaro has good movement skills, showing balance and the ability to turn his hips and run with receivers,” McShay writes. “His instincts and ball skills would help solidify the Dallas secondary.”

    Texas’ last first round player was Earl Thomas (Seahwaks) in the 2010 draft. Vaccaro, a senior, has 100 total tackles, two interceptions, two forced fumbles, three passes broken up and five passes defended this season.
    If we took him at 16 heck I would be happy with it and would not think it was a reach.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    You guys argue just to argue. Literally every thread on this website it's the same people arguing over whether a certain draft prospect is good or not, or what they think the Rams will do in the draft. I noticed when some new guy comes in and states his opinion, it's the same group of people here and if one person from that group opposes the new guy's opinion then the whole group opposes it, whether they are right or wrong. I don't know how long you guys have been together here but you need to be more open minded instead of completely bashing the new guy because he has a different opinion from you. And to be honest, I agree with Barry Waller and I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about more than most of you here, and it's not because I agree with his opinion on Kenny Vaccaro not being worth a 1st round pick. I find his posts to be intelligent and open to discussion; I am in his defense because I got totally railed when I came in here and casually opened a thread that was meant for friendly discussion but instead got bombarded by a bunch of people who are SUPPOSED to be fans from my own team. We're not on opposite teams here, and to be quite honest I feel like on this website that there is more tension between your own people than you actually do with fans from OTHER teams. Then again, I know from first-hand experience, (In generality speaking), that Ram fans from STL do not like Ram fans from LA and vice-versa. Anyway I'm getting way off topic. I just wanted to say that you guys should give the new guy a chance before being so judgemental.

    On topic:

    Kenny Vaccaro is probably going to go in the 1st rd to Pittsburgh or Dallas. I'm not going to argue here about Vaccaro because at the end of the day I am very confident the Rams won't draft him anyway. He's a bust IMO and after watching plenty of tape (not highlights), he's on the same level as DJ Swearinger from SC. They are both solid tacklers but get burned frequently in coverage. I want a coverage safety (like Cyprien), not a tackler. If we did get Vaccaro, it would be similar to the tandem we had last year with Mikell and Dahl. Both were good tacklers, but sub-par in coverage.

    Would you really want to spend a 1st round pick on a slightly more-athletic Craig Dahl? I don't know about you, but I do not want another Dahl, sorry.

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