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Thread: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    I noticed when some new guy comes in and states his opinion
    So you know, there's nothing new about Barry. He and Dez go way back.

    He's a bust IMO and after watching plenty of tape (not highlights), he's on the same level as DJ Swearinger from SC.
    Just for my own curiosity......did you watch actual coach/scout tape, or are you referring to one of the websites that offers segments of televised games as "tape"?

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Again, a "nice Senior year is great, but was HIS year better than Terrence WIlliams?

    Again not ONE safety OR CB picked in round one for TEN YEARS with anything near 4.6 in the forty.

    WHat makes THIS guy the first to not only go round one, but go MID round one, with that slow speed for a 6 ft 213 pound man?

    Just saying. Out of ALL the safeties, some bigger than him, who lasted till round two since 2003, weren't ANY of them better than Vaccaro??

    He wasn't asked to cover?? I see him on film TRYING to cover, and making tackles AFTER the catch in space. Sorry, gotta see a guy ACTUALLY cover top receivers befre i project his as a FS. I need to see PICKS, passes defensed. WE ARE talking about a first round pick, and a big paycheck here.

    He ill NOT be a star at FS in the NFL

    His speed, compared to a 4.40 guy leaves him 1.5 to 2 yards short on a forty yard seam route, and that's a mile, especially with limited length.

    He's gonna have to run UNDER 4.5 to get my vote in round one, and even then it would be LATE round one as I like others way more than him from 15 to 25 especially.

    HERE IS HIS SCOUTING REPORT WEAKNESSES FROM NFL.COM - DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A SUREFIRE #1?

    WEAKNESSES
    Used extensively in man coverage and around the line, must continue improving as a reliable back-half defender against the pass and last line of defense against long runs. One-speed player who lacks burst. Is not quite agile or fast enough to stick with better NFL receivers, backpedal is high and stiff, can be out-quicked in space, and loses a step running down the seam. Can get caught freelancing and watching the backfield in zone coverage, and will bite on play action. Knee injury ended his senior season in high school after three games. Can fill downhill out of control, losing his leverage on the ball carrier and missing tackles. Doesn’t always take good angles and is prone to running himself too far upfield when he’s the “force” defender.
    NFL Comparison
    Morgan Burnett (3rd round pick 2010)


    NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Kenny Vaccaro
    Last edited by Barry Waller; -03-24-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    So you know, there's nothing new about Barry. He and Dez go way back.

    Just for my own curiosity......did you watch actual coach/scout tape, or are you referring to one of the websites that offers segments of televised games as "tape"?
    Well, he's been here since 01 but only has 250 posts, so I'm sure most people here don't know who he is.

    I am a personal friend with one of the Rams scouts. He obviously doesn't tell me everything, but he does let me in on some things, but nothing too secret that would get him fired IMO. He has told me that they are going for a weapon on offense and are looking very carefully at the OLB's. We talked about Gooden as well but not much there to be honest.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Take a look at ERic Reid's highlight tape, and compare to Vaccaro. See Reid defending passes, intercepting balls, AND making big hits against better competition than Vaccaro.

    Combined with his combine performance a tem would be nust to take Vaccaro over him. AND Reid was listed as a STRONG SAFETY.

    L.S.U.'s - Eric Reid Highlights - YouTube
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    With the information he's told me (which hasn't been anything specific), I've inferred that they will draft an OLB/WR in 1st and S in the 2nd. No clue what they will do after that. I could be wrong since there is still a lot of time to the draft. I seriously think the Rams are going after Jarvis Jones, he was one of the first people they scheduled private meetings with.

    They were probably planning on drafting Fluker @ 1.22 until they got Jake Long. Fisher said that they weren't even planning on going for Jake Long, but things just kind of falled into place. The signing allows them to go for OLB and WR instead of OL.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-24-2013 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Merging back to back posts

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    Look at the freaky long jump and vertical jump of Reid, compatred to Vaccaro

    Vaccaro 38 10'1
    Reid 40.5" 11'2"

    Both have huge hands 10", Reid an inch taller arms an inch longer, so if they both jump with hand up, Reid ends up 4 1/2 inches higher at his apex. That's a HUGE difference.

    Vaccaro, at his size, should outrun Reid in a 40, but he isn't doing it.

    Vaccaro is better in the shuttle, which means he may be better in small space, but safteies don't play in short space, linebackers do. Vaccaro would be agood Will LB prospect in a cover 2 scheme, but he's no free safety.

    Funny that no word out of Dallas on Vaccaro's private workout, only a tweet from him saying it "Went Smooth". You'd think Dallas media would be all over the actual results. Certainly his AGENT would release them if it was great. We'll see how that pro day goes this week.

    Well, he's been here since 01 but only has 250 posts, so I'm sure most people here don't know who he is.


    Until Recently , I was bound by agreement with Scouts Inc. and Gridiron Gateway, which Dez was once part of, to only write for that site and Magazine. Now i am free, probably retiring as a writer officially, to share my research, the MOST I have done for a draft in my 43 years as a draftnik deluxe.

    I'll be at Rams park on draft day, as usual, but It's probably my last draft down there. It's hard to truly ENJOY the Rams as a FAN whe you are close to the team and players and coaches.

    I too think the Rams are looking at LB and WR in round one, with Ogletree the only possible LB at 16 unless Jones falls. Guard is an outside shot, but seems less likely right now.

    Eric Reid's Pro day is March 27th and Vaccaro's is a day before. These will be days of reckoning for the two top rated safeties. After them it will be far clearer who will go where.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-24-2013 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Merging back to back posts; please use the EDIT feature if you'd like to add additional information before another response has been made.
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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beastified View Post
    Well, he's been here since 01 but only has 250 posts, so I'm sure most people here don't know who he is.
    You may not, but most everyone else does. Point being, he's not new.

    I am a personal friend with one of the Rams scouts.
    So you're friend has shown you tape, that you've watched for hours and hours?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beastified View Post
    I don't know how long you guys have been together here but you need to be more open minded instead of completely bashing the new guy because he has a different opinion from you.
    Read the following list of quotes from this thread...

    Person A
    -"Oh wow, some of you just don't get it at all"
    -"And I won't give it a rest, when I have the facts on my side."

    Person B
    -"[T]here is some room for conflicting opinions on Vaccaro."
    -"(that's fine, everyone is welcome to their opinions)"

    Remind me again who needs to be more open minded about differing opinions?


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    HERE IS HIS SCOUTING REPORT WEAKNESSES FROM NFL.COM - DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A SUREFIRE #1?
    Since that same NFL.com also features six mocks in which Vaccaro is off the board in the Top 20 (cited earlier by me on Page 2), the answer would appear to be yes.
    Last edited by Nick; -03-24-2013 at 03:48 PM.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You may not, but most everyone else does. Point being, he's not new.

    So you're friend has shown you tape, that you've watched for hours and hours?
    Oh ok, I'm wrong, I came under the assumption that he didn't post here very often.

    No of course not, I just have asked and been told some insider information, but I don't get to see "official tape". The tapes I have viewed have been on youtube, and games I've seen live.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    The only thing that makes me think Vaccaro won't be a first round pick is there are so many good safeties coming out this year. That might make teams feel they can wait.

    Lets look at the strengths from NFL.com

    Strengths
    NFL starting combo safety material with a very good blend of overall strength and athleticism. Often used as a nickel back despite a thick overall build. Very loose hips and good overall change-of-direction ability.Locks onto slot receivers[ at the line and has the agility and straight-game speed to stay with them on out routes and downfield. Physical with receivers trying to block him in the run game, has the strength to rip off and make a stop. Solid open-field tackler, uses great effort and his upper-body strength to drag down ball carriers. Strong off the edge as a blitzer, has bend to turn the corner and gets physical with running backs standing in his way. Flashes the hands and body control to catch passes away from his body. Good change of direction ability and shows the range to play the half-field in Cover Two. Attacks downhill against the run well, running the alley aggressively from deep-half coverage.


    Who are the new slot WR.... TEs thats why he will be coveted. Teams will need size, strength and speed to cover these guys.

    The games changes every year and comparing players that where taken 10 years ago heck five years ago does not hold water for me, Today we need an answer for the 12 personnel package that a lot of teams are using to take advantage of the smaller safety and slower backers.

    Funny that no word out of Dallas on Vaccaro's private workout, only a tweet from him saying it "Went Smooth". You'd think Dallas media would be all over the actual results.
    Was the media invited to the workout?

    Barry do you think some GM might be happy he posted slower times in his forty then expected?

    When it comes to how high a guy jumps or how fast he runs a forty, I just think of one players and it brings me back to realty.

    Vernon Gholston

    Gholston, a so-called workout warrior at the combine in 2008 lifted him to the sixth pick in the draft.

    Some guys maybe shorter and slower but they just play football... London Fletcher
    Last edited by Rambos; -03-24-2013 at 05:04 PM.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Who are the new slot WR.... TEs thats why he will be coveted. Teams will need size, strength and speed to cover these guys.

    The games changes every year and comparing players that where taken 10 years ago heck five years ago does not hold water for me, Today we need an answer for the 12 personnel package that a lot of teams are using to take advantage of the smaller safety and slower backers.
    These are great points.

    The trend in the NFL now is to find that big, agile tight end who can shift out into the slot and create mismatches on defense; look at guys like Vernon Davis, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham, and our own Jared Cook. Additionally, this division is starting to fill up with some quality receivers who can line up inside as well. You've got Boldin in San Fran now and Percy Harvin's addition in Seattle gives them alignment options. So the Rams need to find a way to defend these things if they want to compete with two already quality teams in the West. Finally, having a versatile safety that gives you options at defense certainly won’t hurt when you’re playing mobile quarterbacks like Kaepernick and Wilson twice a year.

    This discussion has prompted me to go back and rewatch some of the games I've saved over the course of the season, to try and take another look at Vaccaro. Safety is one of those positions I find rather tough to get a good read on as a fan, simply because the broadcast view often doesn’t show you everything that’s going on with that position. With that in mind, while I do see some of the things that Barry is concerned about, I think he really exaggerates the negatives as well.

    At one point in this thread, Barry said he doesn’t see Vaccaro covering anyone, and described him as a box safety with no ball skills or man coverage ability. I couldn’t disagree more, and it seems to me that Vaccaro’s cover skills are generally highly regarded.

    For instance, ESPN gave Vaccaro their highest possible rating in cover skills in their Draft Profile of him, stating that he’s versatile without many limitations. The same NFL.com player profile Barry linked to earlier contradicts his own opinion, saying that Vaccaro’s man coverage skills will be coveted. It must be a coincidence that that part was left out of what was copied and pasted here about Vaccaro.

    I would say that Vaccaro’s talent in coverage is one of the things that immediately stands out to me when I’ve gone back and rewatched him, specifically when asked to mirror a slot receiver. He doesn’t seem to lose much if anything in transition, he’s very fluid. From what I’ve seen, he can turn and run with anybody, whether it’s down the field or across it. I’ve seen him make a number of plays on the ball; in fact, over the last two seasons, Vaccaro has the same number of interceptions and has actually broken up more passes in that span than Barry’s favorite safety Eric Reid.

    I don’t know Texas’ personnel well enough to know if this was the case or not, but there’s a part of me that wonders if they lined him up in the slot so much because of other personnel limitations. Sometimes when I watch him, it reminds me of how Spags introduced us to Darian Stewart, because he is near the line of scrimmage quite a bit. But I’ve also been able to find some angles that show him covering the deep half of the field and he seems more than adequate in that role as well. His closing speed is very good; I don’t think the 4.63 forty time represents his on-field speed. He frequently looks like one of the fastest players in pursuit on Texas’ defense and closes well on the ball carrier from another part of the field. So with that in mind, I think his range as a back-half or center fielding defender would be fine. And of course, I haven’t said anything about his physicality, which is a positive.

    Now, if you want to tell me that these skills make him a better strong safety at the pro level, that’s certainly not a ridiculous opinion to have. He isn’t a stranger to playing in the box or blitzing off the edge. But I feel as if I see the kind of skills that would translate to either position. His range, closing speed, and instincts would serve him well as a free safety; his physicality, quickness in pursuit, and man coverage skills would serve him well as a strong safety. There’s a reason so many people have praised his versatility this offseason.

    Does he have limitations? Sure. He has good but not ideal size. The Combine 40-time wasn’t great, but again, I’d be more concerned about it if I thought he looked slow on the field and needed a good forty time to prove he wasn’t. To me, he looks faster than a 4.6 player. But I hope to see him improve on that at his pro day. I think he could improve on his tackling fundamentals and his angles to ball carriers, but I certainly don’t perceive either to be glaring weaknesses. I agree with Barry that you’d like to see more impact plays in terms of interceptions over the course of his career. For those reasons, I don’t consider him an elite safety prospect. But I feel as if I’ve seen enough to feel comfortable with him as a Round One target, specifically on a team like the Rams whose best safety at the moment is the before-mentioned Darian Stewart.

    Barry seems to be convinced Vaccaro isn’t a free safety in this league. Well, let’s work under that assumption, even though I don’t really agree with it. Couldn’t the Rams use an upgrade at strong safety as well? If the team felt they were set at strong safety with Stewart and only needed a free safety, then I don’t think they’d still be talking about having interest in bringing Quinton Mikell back.

    In the end, I appreciate people who take the time to look at a prospect themselves in order to form their own opinion, and I also am thankful that the discussion prompted me to go back and take another look at the guy. I’m only a fan with an amateur’s knowledge of what to look for and how to evaluate these guys. For all I know, Barry could be right and he could bust out completely as a first round pick. But those are some of the things I see and why I think Vaccaro should belong in the first round.
    TekeRam and Tampa_Ram like this.

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    It should be noted that AFTER working out Vaccaro, the Comboys are reportedly trying to clear cap space to go after Michael Huff. and/or Will Allen.

    That sure doesn't look like they were overly impressed with Vaccaro at pick 17.
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    Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Or maybe because they know the pick before them has a serious need for Safety and perhaps they're simply covering their asses?


    Always and Forever a fan of the St. Louis Rams

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Something funny about V. Gholston Rambos, he is a favorite of mine in Madden 2012 as a free agent you can always get him or late in the fantasy draft... he plays really well for all my teams as a second string DE. Sadly it did not translate in real life. When I believe it was the Rams called him up for a tryout a couple years ago I was very excited to see if he could succeed finally. I guess he just doesn't have it, I am still amazed by this! I heard he was even in really great shape, probably will confuse me till he is out of Madden completly!

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    Re: Vaccaro ? No Freaking Way in Round One!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    It should be noted that AFTER working out Vaccaro, the Comboys are reportedly trying to clear cap space to go after Michael Huff. and/or Will Allen.

    That sure doesn't look like they were overly impressed with Vaccaro at pick 17.
    It should also be noted that Dallas Morning News writer Brandon George reported the Cowboys were interested in adding a veteran safety BEFORE they worked out Vaccaro.

    Texas safety Kenny Vaccaro to workout for the Cowboys on Wednesday | Dallas Cowboys Blog
    Last edited by Nick; -03-25-2013 at 02:02 PM.

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