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Thread: Vernon Gholston Godlike

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    I consider Chris Long to be the safest pick for us at defensive end, but I consider Gholston the type that can bring excitement, speed, hard hitting, etc. to our team. I think he can be like a Demarcus Ware. Down on line, up in linebacker stance, and just really shine.

    I think either way, we're set because we can do a lot with both of them.


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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Vernon Davis has been injured or has played with Alex Smith, not exactly a recipe for success.
    That's a fair point, but a playmaker makes things happen regardless of the situation. Isaac Bruce had one of the best seasons in NFL history with Tony Banks throwing to him in 1995.

    The reality is that there are no guarantees based on highlight reels. Gholston certainly has great potential, but he's far from a slam dunk IMO. Like HUb, I wouldn't be upset if we took him at #2, but I'd definitely be holding my breath to see how it worked out.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    The reality is that there are no guarantees based on highlight reels. Gholston certainly has great potential, but he's far from a slam dunk IMO. Like HUb, I wouldn't be upset if we took him at #2, but I'd definitely be holding my breath to see how it worked out.
    Exactly! What is the NFL draft, if not held breath and puckered buttholes?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramer View Post
    I agree with RamFan_Til_I_Die, I will be very disappointed, if Gholston or Chris Long are not our first pick.
    Thanks for taking my post Ramer.

    Some say Gholston isn't worth a second pick, I disagree with them. He's an amazing athlete, and I know he'll make an impact on our squad.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    That's a fair point, but a playmaker makes things happen regardless of the situation. Isaac Bruce had one of the best seasons in NFL history with Tony Banks throwing to him in 1995.

    The reality is that there are no guarantees based on highlight reels. Gholston certainly has great potential, but he's far from a slam dunk IMO. Like HUb, I wouldn't be upset if we took him at #2, but I'd definitely be holding my breath to see how it worked out.
    I'm sorry but I diagree. There are ways to shutout anybody (my point in a previous post). Playmakers, like anybody else can't do anything without the ball in a position to make plays. Alex Smith doesn't strike me as a QB that is able to put anybody in that position very often. Take Davis out of that offense and put him in Indianapolis and I guarantee Peyton Manning would make sure he's a pro-bowler before you know it.

    When dealing with college players it has long been (no pun intended) established that there is no such thing as a slam-dunk. So Chris Long fits snuggly in this category as well. He may be more well rounded than Gholston at this point, but Gholston has more upside. So like I've said before it's just a matter of preference. I like the potential of Gholston.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I'm sorry but I diagree. There are ways to shutout anybody (my point in a previous post). Playmakers, like anybody else can't do anything without the ball in a position to make plays. Alex Smith doesn't strike me as a QB that is able to put anybody in that position very often. Take Davis out of that offense and put him in Indianapolis and I guarantee Peyton Manning would make sure he's a pro-bowler before you know it.

    When dealing with college players it has long been (no pun intended) established that there is no such thing as a slam-dunk. So Chris Long fits snuggly in this category as well. He may be more well rounded than Gholston at this point, but Gholston has more upside. So like I've said before it's just a matter of preference. I like the potential of Gholston.
    Fair enough. I like the potential of Gholston too, although I still have reservations about his transition to the NFL.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    A) You're guess is wrong.......but one of us certainly does need to unclinch.

    B) And if my aunt had a sack she'd be my uncle.....but she doesn't. I'm sure Gholston apologists could come up with all kind of "IF" scenarios to help explain why he got shut out of the backfield in nearly half of his collegiate games, but none of the excuses will take away from the fact, that is FACT, that he did get shut out.

    C) Then why in the holy name of Chevy Chase did you give the excuse of Gholston getting double teamed as a reason for why he got shut out? You said it was to help his team make plays. Well, Chris Long's team made more plays.



    Look, let's go ahead and end this right now. You love Gholston. You think he's the answer to our defensive needs. Fine, maybe he is. However, there are still too many question marks surrounding his game for me to break out the annointing oil just yet.

    I will NOT be against taking him with the #2, assuming C. Long is gone at #1. If that's the case, pull the trigger. Gholston, J. Long, Dorsey.....all about the same to me at this point.

    A) I'm generally in a relaxed state during the draft, so that only leaves you.

    B) It's funny that my explaination of the possible reasons for him being shutout is viewed by you as an excuse. I guess in your mind he could've been blocked by 4 or 5 guys on every play, but that's still no excuse for getting shutout. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it were Chris Long. I doubt it, you'd most likely take a hypocritcal approach. But don't feel bad, it's human nature.

    C) Am I missing something here? I mean, could there be a possibility that Virginia's defense was better than Ohio State's? Could it be that the offenses Virginia played against were more inept? Could it be that Virginia's coaching staff did a better job of gameplanning for their opponents?

    I'm sorry but I'd need to take a Physics class to determine how many variables are involved in why Virginia's team (according to you) made more plays than Ohio St. And even after taking that class and coming up with about a trillion variables, I'd still ask myself, what does this have to do with Vernon Gholston vs Chris Long as individual players. And my answer...Nothing.

    One thing I'll admit, Long supporters definitely have better shot at being appeased than Gholston supporters because of our conservative minded coach, who seems to prefer bigger slower guys anyway.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    A) I'm generally in a relaxed state during the draft, so that only leaves you.

    B) It's funny that my explaination of the possible reasons for him being shutout is viewed by you as an excuse. I guess in your mind he could've been blocked by 4 or 5 guys on every play, but that's still no excuse for getting shutout. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it were Chris Long. I doubt it, you'd most likely take a hypocritcal approach. But don't feel bad, it's human nature.

    C) Am I missing something here? I mean, could there be a possibility that Virginia's defense was better than Ohio State's? Could it be that the offenses Virginia played against were more inept? Could it be that Virginia's coaching staff did a better job of gameplanning for their opponents?

    I'm sorry but I'd need to take a Physics class to determine how many variables are involved in why Virginia's team (according to you) made more plays than Ohio St. And even after taking that class and coming up with about a trillion variables, I'd still ask myself, what does this have to do with Vernon Gholston vs Chris Long as individual players. And my answer...Nothing.

    One thing I'll admit, Long supporters definitely have better shot at being appeased than Gholston supporters because of our conservative minded coach, who seems to prefer bigger slower guys anyway.
    A) Didn't know we were playing the Captain Literal home game, player.

    B) I guess we'll never know how I would feel since Chris Long isn't the one that got shutout in half the games he played. As for your excu...er, I mean reasons that Gholston got shut out: if he was indeed being blocked by 4 and 5 guys, then by all means trade up and draft him. But he wasn't, was he? The LEO position was custom built to move Gholston around so as to avoid the double, triple and even the now introduced quadruple and quintuple blockers.

    C) To answer your question: yes, it would appear so. You stated the reason for VG's absense every other Saturday was due to him absorbing multiple blockers so that his teammates could get to the QB. I questioned that opinion because Chris Long's teammates got the QB more than VG's teammates, yet Chris Long didn't get shut out anywhere near as often as VG. See, no Physics needed.

    Now, my turn to ask a question......how exactly is Chris Long the slower guy? Long had a better 10 yard split, cone time, and shuttle time than Gholston.

    Now, if Haslett starts lining up him DE 40 yards off the line, then no doubt, Gholston is the faster man.


    I tell you what partner, neither of us is going to change the mind of the other. But I'll offer this.....if we pass on Gholston for Long, and Gholston has the better rookie campaign in another 4-3 schemed team, I'll come on here and start a thread about how wrong I was, and we should have taken Gholston all along.

    But until that day, I (along with most every notable expert) will live under the belief that Chris Long would be the better pick at #2 than Vernon Gholston.
    Last edited by HUbison; -03-29-2008 at 08:52 PM.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  9. #39
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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    A) Didn't know we were playing the Captain Literal home game, player.

    B) I guess we'll never know how I would feel since Chris Long isn't the one that got shutout in half the games he played. As for your excu...er, I mean reasons that Gholston got shut out: if he was indeed being blocked by 4 and 5 guys, then by all means trade up and draft him. But he wasn't, was he? The LEO position was custom built to move Gholston around so as to avoid the double, triple and even the now introduced quadruple and quintuple blockers.

    C) To answer your question: yes, it would appear so. You stated the reason for VG's absense every other Saturday was due to him absorbing multiple blockers so that his teammates could get to the QB. I questioned that opinion because Chris Long's teammates got the QB more than VG's teammates, yet Chris Long didn't get shut out anywhere near as often as VG. See, no Physics needed.

    Now, my turn to ask a question......how exactly is Chris Long the slower guy? Long had a better 10 yard split, cone time, and shuttle time than Gholston.

    Now, if Haslett starts lining up him DE 40 yards off the line, then no doubt, Gholston is the faster man.


    I tell you what partner, neither of us is going to change the mind of the other. But I'll offer this.....if we pass on Gholston for Long, and Gholston has the better rookie campaign, I'll come on here and start a thread about how wrong I was, and we should have taken Gholston all along.

    But until that day, I (along with every notable expert) will live under the belief that Chris Long would be the better pick at #2 than Vernon Gholston.
    A) I'm not

    B) I think it would be pretty obvious no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

    C) First of all, I haven't stated any reasons nor have I made any excuses because (unlike you) I don't know what happened in those games. I have simply (or maybe not so simply) attempted to state "possible" reasons. None of which you have even attempted to absorb. I wonder why? Could it be that they don't suit your arguement so they are just simply dismissed?

    Well I'm sorry my friend, but if you're going to come on here stating F.A.C.T.S, (as you call them) then make sure you tell the whole story. Otherwise it's constrewed as just shortsighted, self serving garbage that only you and the people on your bandwagon are interested in.

    How is Chris Long the slower player? Because if they lined up and raced, Gholston would probably win, thus making him the faster and Chris the slower of the two. And while you're pointing out Longs' impressive numbers, it should also be noted that Gholston bench pressed 70lbs more than Long, and squatted 20lbs more. That is awfully impressive for a guy 20lbs lighter.

    Doesn't matter who has the better campaign unless there's a huge disparity. Just matters that whomever the Rams draft, gives his best effort and let the chips fall where they may.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    A) I'm not

    B) I think it would be pretty obvious no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

    C) First of all, I haven't stated any reasons nor have I made any excuses because (unlike you) I don't know what happened in those games. I have simply (or maybe not so simply) attempted to state "possible" reasons. None of which you have even attempted to absorb. I wonder why? Could it be that they don't suit your arguement so they are just simply dismissed?

    Well I'm sorry my friend, but if you're going to come on here stating F.A.C.T.S, (as you call them) then make sure you tell the whole story. Otherwise it's constrewed as just shortsighted, self serving garbage that only you and the people on your bandwagon are interested in.

    How is Chris Long the slower player? Because if they lined up and raced, Gholston would probably win, thus making him the faster and Chris the slower of the two. And while you're pointing out Longs' impressive numbers, it should also be noted that Gholston bench pressed 70lbs more than Long, and squatted 20lbs more. That is awfully impressive for a guy 20lbs lighter.

    Doesn't matter who has the better campaign unless there's a huge disparity. Just matters that whomever the Rams draft, gives his best effort and let the chips fall where they may.
    A) sigh

    B) Sugarcoat? What exactly am I "sugarcoating"? One player DID get held out of the opposing backfield for nearly half his college career. One did NOT. Where is the "sugarcoating"?

    C) What is there to absorb? You stated the possible reason for Gholston getting shut out (the avalanche of blockers theory), and I disputed it. That's what a discussion is. Should I have simply nodded my head and up-and-down and accepted Gholston's deity (as the title of this thread implies)? Would that be properly absorbing?

    C1) Yes, let's line them up and race them. Per their combine/pro day numbers, Long would be faster over the first 10 yards, and Gholston at the end of 40 yards. So as I've already stated, assuming Haslett isn't looking for a DE to line up 40 yards off scrimmage, I don't see how Gholston is the "faster" player.

    C2a) One rep maximums are not part of the Combine, so I can only assume the accuracy of the bench and squat numbers listed.

    C2b) There's only a 6 pound difference (272 vs. 266), so....no, it's not that impressive assuming the accuracy of the numbers.

    C2c) Does one rep maxes have any direct correlation to a player's on-field ability? And if so, why don't they measure that at the Combine?


    Again, my friend, if Gholston is the choice @ 2, so be it. I'm not saying he would be a bad choice. However, it still puckers.....oh wait, no, you don't like that expression.......um, how 'bout curl my toenails; yea, that's it.....the pick of Gholston curls my toenails (obligatory disclaimer: The idea of drafting Vernon Gholston does not in fact curl the author's toenails. It's just an expression)

    What bothers me though, is when decisions are based on nothing more than snippets (highlight films) and stereotypes (VG's superior athleticism). Maybe VG is the top choice for the Rams, but right now there are still valid questions about his game effort that must be factored into the equation.

    And my offer still stands. If we pass on Gholston for Long, and Gholston has the better rookie campaign in another 4-3 schemed team, I'll come on here and start a thread about how wrong I was, and we should have taken Gholston all along.

    We learn more from being wrong, than we do being right.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Exactly! What is the NFL draft, if not held breath and puckered buttholes?

    What is the NFL Draft you ask? Wait for it, wait for it.....

    "The Draft is a crapshoot"


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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    What is the NFL Draft you ask? Wait for it, wait for it.....

    "The Draft is a crapshoot"

    Yes! He took the bait. Next rounds on tx!
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Yes! He took the bait. Next rounds on tx!
    Ohhh... but I already took my shot! Good thing we already had our department meeting, or else my boss might get mad.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    Vernon Davis has been injured or has played with Alex Smith, not exactly a recipe for success.
    That is fair, but when you see a guy like Vernon or Gholston the last thing you think is they will get hurt.

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    Re: Vernon Gholston Godlike

    I'm sorry but I diagree. There are ways to shutout anybody (my point in a previous post). Playmakers, like anybody else can't do anything without the ball in a position to make plays. Alex Smith doesn't strike me as a QB that is able to put anybody in that position very often. Take Davis out of that offense and put him in Indianapolis and I guarantee Peyton Manning would make sure he's a pro-bowler before you know it.
    Here is the question. Gholston is on a team (Ohio) with all the help in the world like being on the Colts offense. Long is the player thats on the team that lacks talent yet he gets it done. If Gholston is on a weak defensive team will you make the same excuse for him, he has no help, when in fact he should be a differnce maker!

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