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  1. #16
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    This is the worst idea i have ever seen in my entire life.... 1st 2nd and Atogwe? u must have been smashed..(drunk)


  2. #17
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Underlying my admittedly somewhat radical proposal is a very serious/legit concern that dropping $40+ mill guaranteed on a DT isn't the best way to rebuild The Rams long or short term. Stafford got $40+ mill last year at the #1 spot. Who here wants to bet that a super-hyped Suh will sign for less,esp to go to the lowly Rams in an uncapped year when any agent worth his fee will know the Rams overall low team salary ?

    And will any DT even at the highest possible level of productivity be a big enough difference maker-either in himself or how he raises the game of those around him -to justify that cost/risk? Do you think Haynesworth was a good move? I don't.

    I was wrong about a DT never being taken at #1. Cincy took Wilkinson there in the 90s. He was very good but the overall run D of the team still sucked through his stint & he wasn't re-signed so the shelf-life wasn't good,either. Not his fault that he couldn't solve their defensive problems on his own but I'd guess the resources they had to spend on him probably probably hindered their ability/willingness to get him more help which The Rams themselves also need at DE,OLB, and possibly other positions on D.

    As to the contention that McNabb is too old/past his best or , most absurdly, is not elite. Back2back seasons of 3500+ yds passing & 20+ TDs kinda negates any arguments that the guy is fading for me.And he's been that good most of his long career despite wildly fluctuating support around him.Heck, until they boosted their numbers as starter replacements for SJ, The Rams back-up RBs were less productive combined than DM as a rusher with a 3.8 /carry avge,140yds, and 2 TDs. And all behind a poor O-line, no run game, & in a tough defensive division....Yeah, Philly should just get one of Vick's crew to Old Yeller the poor guy; he's embarrassing himself.

    Btw, Peyton is the same age as Donovan if Warner & Favre don't work for you as examples of old farts who still have some ,um, gas to burn.

    And somebody needs to explain to me how the injury risk for a rookie DT in the trenches with a mediocre supporting DL is less than for a wily vet QB behind an improving OL with a great RB and his own good mobility/pocket presence/brick poophouse physique in his favor.

    With a carefuly-constructed contract that protected The Rams against a productivity drop-off due to injury or whatever, foregoing Suh & getting DM could save The Rams tens of millions & immediately improve the offense dramatically,imo, for several years even without many new upgrades elsewhere on the unit. Throw OJ into the mix & the savings grow even more. Lots of building blocks for the future could be bought for that kind of dough & the chances of short term offensive improvement seriously enhanced which, in turn, helps take pressure off the D.

    Booze-drunk,no. Drunk on the excitement of this team having a unique chance to jumpstart their turnaround & still build to sustain it,yes.

    Crazy like a fox, mebbe.

    As to the wags & their sixers of beer/cheeseburger hyperbole, I'd say DM is still worth a surf n' turf/bottle of Petrus dinner opposite Scarlett Johannsen-in-a-slutty- mood at the very least.
    Last edited by Azul e Oro; -01-14-2010 at 07:23 PM.

  3. #18
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I was wrong about a DT never being taken at #1. Cincy took Wilkinson there in the 90s. He was very good but the overall run D of the team still sucked through his stint & he wasn't re-signed so the shelf-life wasn't good,either. Not his fault that he couldn't solve their defensive problems on his own but I'd guess the resources they had to spend on him probably probably hindered their ability/willingness to get him more help which The Rams themselves also need at DE,OLB, and possibly other positions on D.
    Actually 6 DT's have been taken at #1, HOFer Buck Bucanon (AFL) being the most notable.

    I think the last statement in your quote here pretty much sums up why most of us feel it would be foolish to give up so much for McNabb, or any other player for that matter.

  4. #19
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Giving up the chance to draft what scouts are calling the best defensive lineman to come out of college since Reggie White for an aging, injury-prone 33 year-old career choker?

    Pass.

  5. #20
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    lol, your argument makes no sense wat so ever... if I wanted to give up a Round 1 and 2 pick and both the best in the draft along with OJ Atogwe? I'd rather have Peyton Manning. With what your giving up you can get any player in the NFL.. easily.

  6. #21
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    Actually 6 DT's have been taken at #1, HOFer Buck Bucanon (AFL) being the most notable.

    I think the last statement in your quote here pretty much sums up why most of us feel it would be foolish to give up so much for McNabb, or any other player for that matter.
    What does a guy from that time have to do with the modern era & the insane money we are talking about? If you'd said Tommie Harris or K. Williams...maybe.. but they were lower picks & I doubt either is pulling in that kind of dough.

    I thought I'd explained how the savings on giving up #1 pick this year would free up resources for the rebuild & its continuance for the long term.Ditto for the rest of the "so much" everyone seems worried about:

    The second rounder next year would be at least partially cancelled out by a high 3rd rounder this year in exchange for OJ.Maybe even his replacement to groom behind the others. It was his original round, fer cryin' out loud.In the end, The Rams D was no better at preventing losses with OJ gambling/ballhawking as he did in the past or playing more within the system as I think he did this year.

    Imo, OJ is not worth 6.5 for a one year deal & is of borderline longterm value/upside for a long term deal that will certainly involve at least that $6.5 mill in guaranteed money, going into his 6th season at age 29 off a shoulder injury. We have other options in Dahl/Roach.

    The last thing I want to see is The Rams getting screwed by pinning their hopes on one guy and tying up resources for years if he busts. Been there , done that. The financial footprint of this deal would be much smaller, the rebuild could continue despite the CBA problems, and the potential upside is,imo, tremendous.
    Last edited by Azul e Oro; -01-14-2010 at 10:33 PM.

  7. #22
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I appreciate the,uh, detailed thoughtful rebuttal. What's crazy about getting a dynamic game-changer at a critical position of need for 2 unknowns and a DB who may have peaked & may cost more than he's worth to either tag or sign longterm?

    I think my argument for McNabb is detailed enough except to say that it's definitely not crazy to contend that MCNabb would be the best QB the Rams have had since Gabriel except for Warner's brief heyday.

    I also think that The Spags/Shurmur factor makes such a deal less improbable than you might think.And I think the tv guys were right; if he wants to play after that 2 yr extension for a payday, he's probably going to have to leave & soon before his trade stock drops. Why not go be the hero on a team with the same sysytem ,familiar trusted coaches,in an easier division where he can get a better longer deal? Maybe The Rams would be a hard sell as an upcoming team but Philly's O-line is in rebuild mode, whereas ours is solidifying & also with likely a much better running game now that Westbrook is fading. This may have been his last shot at a SB in Philly, anyway.

    Maybe I am crazy but this could be the Faulk deal of the new decade...LOL.. And I'm sure he'd have more impact on the win/loss column than Suh in his rookie season.
    Marshall Faulk was 26 when he was traded. McNabb is 33. That is a heckuva lot more mileage to deal with. And that also ignores that Vermeil had been overhauling the team for the two previous seasons, which made trading for Faulk a more logical capstone on the rebuild.

    Honestly, I'd rather this team stick to the rebuilding plan and win 3-5 games next season than blow up the plan in order to win 6 or 7 and have to start over again next offseason. The future is bright for the team, provided we have the frickin' patience to stay with the plan. Peyton Manning couldn't take the likely 2010 roster to the playoffs, so making roster moves in the name of "excitement" and "chasing the playoffs" next season is the epitome of short-sighted stupidity.

    This team is still rebuilding and trying to get younger. Adding a 33 year old back who is on the decline....and dumping 2 important building picks for that, is so incredibly stupid that I believe that rather than being equivalent to the Marshall Faulk trade, I would suggest that this would be a modern day Herschell Walker trade. And we're the Vikings.

  8. #23
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    What does a guy from that time have to do with the modern era & the insane money we are talking about?
    I didn't know the modern era and insane money were constraints here. You made a comment about being wrong as far as DT's being taken at #1 and mentioned Wilkinson, I knew there were many more, so I noted that. My appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    The last thing I want to see is The Rams getting screwed by pinning their hopes on one guy and tying up resources for years if he busts. Been there , done that. The financial footprint of this deal would be much smaller, the rebuild could continue despite the CBA problems, and the potential upside is,imo, tremendous.
    I guess I just don't see McNabb as the smart way to go. With his age and limited ability to have any meaningful impact on a team that is lacking in so many areas, it seems pointless. I'll take my chances with the draft picks and OJ, then moving ahead from there. I'm guessing the Rams, who have made it a strong point of emphesis to build from youth, would agree.

  9. #24
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Underlying my admittedly somewhat radical proposal is a very serious/legit concern that dropping $40+ mill guaranteed on a DT isn't the best way to rebuild The Rams long or short term. Stafford got $40+ mill last year at the #1 spot. Who here wants to bet that a super-hyped Suh will sign for less,esp to go to the lowly Rams in an uncapped year when any agent worth his fee will know the Rams overall low team salary?
    The only difference is Suh at DT and Stafford as a NFL QB has the skills and ability and is alot easier to transfer his exp. into the NFL as opposed to a QB from college to the pros.. I can'e wait till about the 6th week in the up coming season and see what you think about SUH then... It's almost like saying Merlin Olsen would have been a waste without Rosie Greer and Deacon Jones because it's a team sport , but when you combine them together we dominated back then, wish I could have watched those games... We'll have Long, Suh and some really good other front D line potentials to put in the mix this coming year.
    Last edited by TheRammer; -01-14-2010 at 11:22 PM.

  10. #25
    molar_pistol is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    the thing about these ridiculous rookie contracts is most of it is paid in bonuses which don't effect the cap, unless you cut or trade the guy...he wouldn't start significantly effecting our cap for a number of years, when he gets his second contract.

  11. #26
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    what about Brady Quinn? Could come cheap if we can develop him might get at a steal.
    LA RAMMER

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  12. #27
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    Marshall Faulk was 26 when he was traded. McNabb is 33. That is a heckuva lot more mileage to deal with. And that also ignores that Vermeil had been overhauling the team for the two previous seasons, which made trading for Faulk a more logical capstone on the rebuild.

    Honestly, I'd rather this team stick to the rebuilding plan and win 3-5 games next season than blow up the plan in order to win 6 or 7 and have to start over again next offseason. The future is bright for the team, provided we have the frickin' patience to stay with the plan. Peyton Manning couldn't take the likely 2010 roster to the playoffs, so making roster moves in the name of "excitement" and "chasing the playoffs" next season is the epitome of short-sighted stupidity.

    This team is still rebuilding and trying to get younger. Adding a 33 year old back who is on the decline....and dumping 2 important building picks for that, is so incredibly stupid that I believe that rather than being equivalent to the Marshall Faulk trade, I would suggest that this would be a modern day Herschell Walker trade. And we're the Vikings.
    The Faulk comment was largely a joke; hence the "LOL". Sorry if that was confusing.

    The only correlation I was hinting at is that "outside the box thinking" measures have been taken in the past & paid off.


    You say McNabb is on the decline but offer no evidence other than his age. The numbers over a long career are consistently high & continue to be to date.

    Yeah Suh is obviously definitely the next Sapp or White but Mcnabb can't possibly be the next Warren Moon,Warner,Favre...

    Many good thing happen in the scenario I suggested that help the rebuilding process & keep resources from being gambled on one player. It's a calculated risk but not,imo, an indefensibly stupid one.

    All I know for sure about Suh is , barring a pre-draft injury, he's going to be very rich by this time next year.Not even considering that he may not be worth it is stupid,imo.

  13. #28
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Yeah Suh is obviously definitely the next Sapp or White but Mcnabb can't possibly be the next Warren Moon,Warner,Favre...
    So the choice is between a guy that could become the next Sapp or White, two players who are among the most dominant of all time at their positions and played at a high level for years. Or a guy that we could get a few seasons out of at QB playing at a high level?


    The fact is, this is a rebuilding team. Rebuilding teams do not give up two high draft picks and one of their best young defensive players for a 33 year old QB. We are supposed to be using these draft picks to build a core of young players that will be on this team long into the future. If we throw these two picks and Atogwe at getting McNabb, then in say three seasons time when McNabb retires or his play drops off, the Rams are back where they are now. No progress has been made in the long run, which is exactly what the Rams are trying to avoid. If the Rams wanted to sign aged veteran players to join this team, we would have done so in the previous off season. Or we would have kept Pace and Holt.

    Also, the 40 million to a DT doesnt mean anything really. The Rams arent in cap trouble anymore thanks to Devaney, so we can afford to sign him to that money. And if he is the best player in the draft, why not?

  14. #29
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    So the choice is between a guy that could become the next Sapp or White, two players who are among the most dominant of all time at their positions and played at a high level for years. Or a guy that we could get a few seasons out of at QB playing at a high level?


    The fact is, this is a rebuilding team. Rebuilding teams do not give up two high draft picks and one of their best young defensive players for a 33 year old QB. We are supposed to be using these draft picks to build a core of young players that will be on this team long into the future. If we throw these two picks and Atogwe at getting McNabb, then in say three seasons time when McNabb retires or his play drops off, the Rams are back where they are now. No progress has been made in the long run, which is exactly what the Rams are trying to avoid. If the Rams wanted to sign aged veteran players to join this team, we would have done so in the previous off season. Or we would have kept Pace and Holt.

    Also, the 40 million to a DT doesnt mean anything really. The Rams arent in cap trouble anymore thanks to Devaney, so we can afford to sign him to that money. And if he is the best player in the draft, why not?
    I guess we disagree on the potential impact of Suh on our D specifically and that of DM as well as the relative value of a stud DT over a star QB in general on the fortunes of a team.

    No other QB ,imo, would have as much positive effect on the rebuild on offense. Or do you think we'll get the best out of SJ, the young WRs, the huge investments in Bell & Jason Brown with some other never-was like Boller or probably never-will-be-again like Vick?

    "A few years" is likely to be the rest of SJ's prime,for eg.

    Not being concerned about a 40+ mill investment in one player who has nothing but hype so far on his resume because there'll be no cap for one year is hardly taking the long view. Only two DTs have been taken at #1 in the last 20 years. Neither was with their original team after the first contract was done. So much for the rebuilding-for-the-next decade type player theory that every team is betting on with a #1 pick.

    Maybe Suh is the exception that is worth risking going against the cumulative wisdom of NFL decision-makers in the last 20 years. I'm not happy that circumstances seem to be forcing The Rams into making that huge bet.

    Best player isn't the same as best fit. was Smith better than Curry last year?

    Even if Suh turns out to be the next Sapp or White, neither took up such huge amounts of the team's resources until they proved their value on the field.

    Nobody has offered a lick of hard evidence that McNabb is fading. The numbers indicate quite the opposite. Comparing Suh with, as you say, two of the greatest DTs of all time is nothing but conjecture.

    OJ may well be critcal enough to the rebuilding effort in DeSpags' eyes to sign to a big deal. We'll see. But if you think he's likely to be a dominant player at a position that's not even highly valued by the NFL in general in , say, his 8th or 9th year when this long rebuilding process you envision is complete...well....it could happen; Aeneas was great in his last years on The Rams but it's another longshot.

    There's nothing safe or obvious about Suh being the best choice for The Rams or that this deal is stupid or insane,imo.There's no proof for Suh & hard data and historical precedent for Mcnabb.

    It won't happen,of course, because Reid & the Philly FO know his value even if the fans don't. They'd laugh at my proposal,too. But only because it was too little, not too much.

    Fans put far too much of their hopes into the potential impact of any #1 pick in any given year. It is always a huge risk for a team that is bad enough to have that spot to invest so much in one player.This year it is a curse & I think The Rams need to look at all options, no matter how high the cost on the face of it, to get that albatross off their neck.

  15. #30
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    I'm with you on this one, Azul. Of course, thats probably got more to do with me being a SU season ticket holder than anything else.

    I'd take a 50 year old McNabb over Greg Paulus anyday!

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