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  1. #31
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    You can take this for what it's worth, but I decided to look up what Eagles fans would want for McNabb. Here are a bunch of excerpts from the CBS Sports message board from Eagles fans themselves. Also, I am not selecting for quotes that support my case. I may have missed some, but that's due simply to oversight:

    I would have to imagine he's worth atleast one first round pick, or a second\third round pick combo to some team out there should we happen to trade him.
    I want a 1st, a 4th AND a starter.
    I would say easily a first and a third.
    a 2nd and a 3rd probably would be as high as most teams would go for an over 30, multiple season ending injury QB. there is no way a team out there is going to give up a potential 10 + years starter in a draft pick for a QB who is in the twilight of his career and who may only have 2 maybe 3 years left in the tank.
    I don't know, do you think we could get a first round pick for Donovan McNabb? I guess if it were a pick in the 20s, I don't think we could get an early first round pick.
    Seriously guys? All the emphasis in the NFL is put around youth. There is no way in hell that we are gonna get a first round draft pick for Donovan McNabb. No way... Maybe a 2nd round pick for Mcnabb
    they could get a 2nd rounder AT BEST for donovan. favre was traded for a low second round pick from the pack to the Jets....donovan isnt better than brett. a 2nd rounder if the team is able to resign him to a 3-4 year deal....if not, maybe a 3rd rounder.
    I think we can squeeze a first rounder out of some teams, especially Oakland because they have no care in the world for the value of their draft picks.
    All good stuff here, agreed McNabb is worth no more that a 2nd pick.
    At most, you'd get a 2nd along with MAYBE a 6th/7th.
    I'm really thinkin' more along the lines of a second or third round pick ONLY. Second is NOT out of the question (as a first rounder is), but a third rounder along with maybe a low-low round draft pick is about what I think we'd really get for him.
    I agree with others here. No team is going to give up a 1st round pick for McNabb.
    I was serious about SETTLING for a 1st, 4th and starter. I'd ask for more.
    Oakland has a high 1st round pick this year. They will NOT trade it for someone like McNabb.
    Here is what you get from the Browns for McNabb~our 2nd 3rd round draft pick(aquired from the Jets) this is what his stock is worth.
    Notice that the highest anybody went was 1st + 4th + a starter. Presumably that 1st is a mid-to-late 1st, or at least not a top 5. Still not even close to 1st overall + 33rd overall + borderline star. The vast majority think a 1st alone is more than he's worth, and even those who want a 1st admit it would probably be a late 1st rounders. There is nobody, even among Eagles fans, who think McNabb could fetch even close to what you're suggesting, Azul.

    I'm not saying message boards should be the end all and be all of player analysis, but for what it's worth there it is....
    Last edited by Nick_Weasel; -01-15-2010 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Fixing a couple quotes + commentary at end


  2. #32
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Weasel View Post
    You can take this for what it's worth, but I decided to look up what Eagles fans would want for McNabb. Here are a bunch of excerpts from the CBS Sports message board from Eagles fans themselves. Also, I am not selecting for quotes that support my case. I may have missed some, but that's due simply to oversight:



















    Notice that the highest anybody went was 1st + 4th + a starter. Presumably that 1st is a mid-to-late 1st, or at least not a top 5. Still not even close to 1st overall + 33rd overall + borderline star. The vast majority think a 1st alone is more than he's worth, and even those who want a 1st admit it would probably be a late 1st rounders. There is nobody, even among Eagles fans, who think McNabb could fetch even close to what you're suggesting, Azul.

    I'm not saying message boards should be the end all and be all of player analysis, but for what it's worth there it is....
    Thank you, NW. It's a pity ClanRam have hardly offered up any serious & detailed who/why/what ideas of what they WOULD consider giving up to get him in the same manner. The main point of the exercise, in other words.

    The conversation-killing "Not under any circumstances" responses for such an accomplished player have been pretty hard to swallow when guys like Vick are being given lengthy in-depth consideration.

    Edit: ps How is the 1st+4th+starter necessarily the closest to my proposal when the estimates quoted above and below it have higher picks involved. In my deal we get a 3rd in compensation for the starter, not just a straight give away. I haven't graded that out on JJ's draft value chart but I bet it would be close.

    And it doesn't surprise me that no one is thinking about the top ten specifically. No sane fan would wish a top ten pick on their team unless they were desperate like The Rams. That's probably the strongest argument against my proposal,actually. Every team could use a geat player but Philly doesn't need to take the risk on a DT at that #1 price,imo. Maybe if they are in love with someone we are not considering like Spiller , an obvious need at a traditional marquee spot.
    Last edited by Azul e Oro; -01-15-2010 at 06:29 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Personally, I'm not a huge fan of picking up McNabb simply because I view him as a 2-3 year stopgap. So what I'd be willing to give up for him is probably less than market value - if we gave up a 4th I'd be happy. Any more and I'd probably not like it. But again, I realize that is less than market value for him and is something the Eagles would probably never go for unless they had imminent plans to dump him anyway.

  4. #34
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    I love Mcnabb more than the next guy for sure. Always been a fan of his. That being said I could not give anything more than a 4th for him just by looking at what his value to the team would be. Like has been said, a 2-3 year (if that) stopgap. If he became a free agent id be on here hollering for us to go get him but as far as hindering the development of our team through the draft....no...just no. I view our draft picks as more valuable then almost any player.

  5. #35
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I guess we disagree on the potential impact of Suh on our D specifically and that of DM as well as the relative value of a stud DT over a star QB in general on the fortunes of a team.

    No other QB ,imo, would have as much positive effect on the rebuild on offense. Or do you think we'll get the best out of SJ, the young WRs, the huge investments in Bell & Jason Brown with some other never-was like Boller or probably never-will-be-again like Vick?

    "A few years" is likely to be the rest of SJ's prime,for eg.
    If the stud DT and star QB were the same age, this might be an argument. The fact of the matter is that we are still in the midst of rebuilding, and in such a situation trading the multiple good young players for a good old player is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

    For what its worth, I think 2 things about this franchise at the moment.

    1. Regardless of who is taking snaps at Center, be it Null, Bulger, Vick, Campbell, McCoy, McNabb, or even Peyton Manning, we aren't winning more than 6 games next year. If we avoid the superstar QB and stick with the plan, we probably win 4 games.

    2. However....if we stick with the plan, I honestly think 2010 will be the last really bad season for some time to come with this franchise. We will be flush with talent from 3 good drafts, have made intelligent and astute free agent decisions, and built up a young nucleus than can succeed in the future. Jackson will still have plenty of time to play on a playoff team.


    Not being concerned about a 40+ mill investment in one player who has nothing but hype so far on his resume because there'll be no cap for one year is hardly taking the long view. Only two DTs have been taken at #1 in the last 20 years. Neither was with their original team after the first contract was done. So much for the rebuilding-for-the-next decade type player theory that every team is betting on with a #1 pick.

    Maybe Suh is the exception that is worth risking going against the cumulative wisdom of NFL decision-makers in the last 20 years. I'm not happy that circumstances seem to be forcing The Rams into making that huge bet.
    Every draft pick is a huge bet. However, Suh's odds of success are probably 2 out of 3 as opposed to the 1 out of 4 or 5 of drafting Jimmy Clausen. This is about managing long term risk. And it's not like DT isn't a huge need for us either.

    Best player isn't the same as best fit. was Smith better than Curry last year?
    Given the amount of discontent out of Seattle over him, I'm almost tempted to say that Smith was better than Curry (inasmuch as you can compare OTs and MLBs) even when you factor in the concussion.

    Even if Suh turns out to be the next Sapp or White, neither took up such huge amounts of the team's resources until they proved their value on the field.
    Sapp went 12th overall. That's a pretty hefty chunk of change he'd be getting in today's draft. White, by virtue of being a refugee from the USFL, doesn't have an NFL Draft position to pin down. Given how White entered the NFL in the mid-1980s, I don't have any solid payroll numbers to look at at the moment to see how many resources he consumed, but I would suggest that his initial contract would be much higher in today's NFL.

    Nobody has offered a lick of hard evidence that McNabb is fading. The numbers indicate quite the opposite. Comparing Suh with, as you say, two of the greatest DTs of all time is nothing but conjecture.
    Is that success a function of McNabb's ability, or is it being masked by Philadelphia surrounding McNabb with offensive talent? Talent he will not have in 2010 in St. Louis at the least. Even if it is ability, history dictates that McNabb can expect to fall off in a year or two. Yes Warren Moon lingered for years. Warren Moon also wasn't good those last 5 years.

    OJ may well be critcal enough to the rebuilding effort in DeSpags' eyes to sign to a big deal. We'll see. But if you think he's likely to be a dominant player at a position that's not even highly valued by the NFL in general in , say, his 8th or 9th year when this long rebuilding process you envision is complete...well....it could happen; Aeneas was great in his last years on The Rams but it's another longshot.
    See the above. Things will start taking a turn for the better in his 7th year.

    There's nothing safe or obvious about Suh being the best choice for The Rams or that this deal is stupid or insane,imo.There's no proof for Suh & hard data and historical precedent for Mcnabb.
    There would historical precedent for McNabb if we were a 6-10 or 7-9 team after last season that was a star QB away from making a serious run at and in the playoffs. Alternatively, there might be a case if McNabb was 6 or 7 years younger. It goes without saying we aren't and he isn't. From the perspective of a franchise that is only entering year 2 of a massive rebuild and still has many holes to fill, the talented rookie is a better choice than the 33 year old QB, no matter how good the QB is.

    It won't happen,of course, because Reid & the Philly FO know his value even if the fans don't. They'd laugh at my proposal,too. But only because it was too little, not too much.
    Two high picks and a good safety for an aging QB who folks want to run out of town on a rail. When you already have said QB's replacement on your payroll. They'd be laughing at their good fortune alright.

    Fans put far too much of their hopes into the potential impact of any #1 pick in any given year. It is always a huge risk for a team that is bad enough to have that spot to invest so much in one player.This year it is a curse & I think The Rams need to look at all options, no matter how high the cost on the face of it, to get that albatross off their neck.
    You complain about financial costs, but McNabb is hardly cheap. He'll command something like $10 million in hard money this season, and as his contract is set to expire at the end of the season, he's going to want a new, presumably rich, contract as well.

  6. #36
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Best player isn't the same as best fit. was Smith better than Curry last year?
    Yes. He was the better prospect and played better in the season.

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    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bralidore(RAMMODE) View Post
    I love Mcnabb more than the next guy for sure. Always been a fan of his. That being said I could not give anything more than a 4th for him just by looking at what his value to the team would be. Like has been said, a 2-3 year (if that) stopgap. If he became a free agent id be on here hollering for us to go get him but as far as hindering the development of our team through the draft....no...just no. I view our draft picks as more valuable then almost any player.
    In general, I'm also in favor of patiently staying the course & working the draft but that #1 pick in the current circumstances is terrifying. Could derail the development as easily as anything,imo.

    You don't ignore the D; just fill the basket with lots of smaller eggs over a couple of years rather than one mega-sized one, thus spreading the risk and giving them some competitive leeway with a McNabb-led offense.
    I've explained as best I can with concrete data why I think this is a quicker &, ultimately, safer way to rebuild while maximizing the available talent. I guess we'll just have to disagree.

  8. #38
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    It won't happen,of course, because Reid & the Philly FO know his value even if the fans don't. They'd laugh at my proposal,too. But only because it was too little, not too much.
    ...wait, so you think the Eagles would balk at a trade offer that sends McNabb to another team for the first overall pick, a second round pick in 2011, and OJ Atogwe?

    I must have really missed the boat here, because not only would I not consider giving up that kind of compensation, but I think the Eagles would fall over themselves getting to the phone to accept such an offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Thank you, NW. It's a pity ClanRam have hardly offered up any serious & detailed who/why/what ideas of what they WOULD consider giving up to get him in the same manner. The main point of the exercise, in other words.
    It seemed to me the main point of your exercise was making the case for the Rams trading two high draft picks and one of their best defensive players for Donovan McNabb. I apologize if you feel your main point was ignored, but in the future you may want to find a way to feature it more prominently or emphasize it as your main topic.

    As for what I would be willing to trade for McNabb? A third rounder, at most. This is a young team trying to build for the future, not a contender that's a good QB away from a serious run. Throwing any more compensation at McNabb, IMO, just doesn't make any sense for the Rams. Young players who could potentially be here for the next decade are more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Edit: ps How is the 1st+4th+starter necessarily the closest to my proposal when the estimates quoted above and below it have higher picks involved. In my deal we get a 3rd in compensation for the starter, not just a straight give away. I haven't graded that out on JJ's draft value chart but I bet it would be close.
    You originally proposed your trade as: "I say we could give our #1 this year which means no Suh, and another high pick next year-maybe 2d round...and, hold onto your horns, Atogwe."

    A little bit later, you argued that Atogwe would be a restricted free agent so we could get a third round pick from the Eagles for him. But the Rams only get that compensation if they tender Atogwe the offer sheet that secures them compensation equal to the round which the player was originally drafted, and then the Eagles would have to sign him to that offer sheet for the Rams to receive the third round pick.

    If there's a trade between the Rams and Eagles that includes other picks and players, and Atogwe is included, then the Eagles are not forced to give the Rams a third round pick for him. That would have to be included in the terms of the trade package, and it didn't seem like you listed it in your sentence summing up the trade proposal.

  9. #39
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    In general, I'm also in favor of patiently staying the course & working the draft but that #1 pick in the current circumstances is terrifying. Could derail the development as easily as anything,imo.

    You don't ignore the D; just fill the basket with lots of smaller eggs over a couple of years rather than one mega-sized one, thus spreading the risk and giving them some competitive leeway with a McNabb-led offense.
    I've explained as best I can with concrete data why I think this is a quicker &, ultimately, safer way to rebuild while maximizing the available talent. I guess we'll just have to disagree.
    That philosophy gives you an active roster with fully 2/3rds of the players being drafted in the 6th Round or lower, with nearly half of that total being undrafted.

    We did that towards the end of this past season. The results speak for themselves. Smaller eggs have less talent than large eggs, and at some point you need talent in the NFL.

    -------------------------

    What are we going to surround McNabb with? Our offense is not built to single-handedly win games, but neglecting the defense or throwing cheap players at the problem (like say the GSOT Rams) isn't going to improve the defense. We are more in a position to build a defense-oriented team with a ball-control game managing offense. Such offenses do not need "explosive" 33 year old QBs who need to be surrounded with good to elite receivers and running backs.

    What also is left unaddressed are McNabb's contractual demands. He is going to demand Bulger money per year over 3 or 4. We'd effectively be swapping one big contract for another; only we'd be paying out to an old guy.

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    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    ...wait, so you think the Eagles would balk at a trade offer that sends McNabb to another team for the first overall pick, a second round pick in 2011, and OJ Atogwe?

    I must have really missed the boat here, because not only would I not consider giving up that kind of compensation, but I think the Eagles would fall over themselves getting to the phone to accept such an offer.



    It seemed to me the main point of your exercise was making the case for the Rams trading two high draft picks and one of their best defensive players for Donovan McNabb. I apologize if you feel your main point was ignored, but in the future you may want to find a way to feature it more prominently or emphasize it as your main topic.

    As for what I would be willing to trade for McNabb? A third rounder, at most. This is a young team trying to build for the future, not a contender that's a good QB away from a serious run. Throwing any more compensation at McNabb, IMO, just doesn't make any sense for the Rams. Young players who could potentially be here for the next decade are more important.



    You originally proposed your trade as: "I say we could give our #1 this year which means no Suh, and another high pick next year-maybe 2d round...and, hold onto your horns, Atogwe."

    A little bit later, you argued that Atogwe would be a restricted free agent so we could get a third round pick from the Eagles for him. But the Rams only get that compensation if they tender Atogwe the offer sheet that secures them compensation equal to the round which the player was originally drafted, and then the Eagles would have to sign him to that offer sheet for the Rams to receive the third round pick.

    If there's a trade between the Rams and Eagles that includes other picks and players, and Atogwe is included, then the Eagles are not forced to give the Rams a third round pick for him. That would have to be included in the terms of the trade package, and it didn't seem like you listed it in your sentence summing up the trade proposal.
    That last point is news to me. Don't know if it could be fixed by separating the deals in nothing but name. Is there a precedent either way?

    Overall, I'm not sure how I could have made the intent of the thread any more clear than titling it "What would you give up for McNabb?"

    I gave an example to get the ball rolling. A bit wicked of me to make it so provocatively radical, I admit, but if you want to get the ball rolling, why not give it a serious shove ! Lol...

    In general, I'm a little leery of only betting on the long term.The trick is a balance, I think, & there are no set rules; it depends on the individual factors which are many and complex in their implications and never black & white, eg all well & good to talk of possible decade long careers but the average remains 3-4,no? Picks are a resource but so is money, cap or not. Big money talent is not affecting the win/loss bottom line as much as it should because of the QB situation (SJ, Bell, Brown, Smith) nor is it likely to be with a cheapie stopgap or with a rookie.

    I still don't think the odds of a good bang for your buck from a proven QB playing at that level are that much longer than the multiple gambles of many future draft picks & what will likely be the biggest contract ever given to a DT, maybe even including Haynesworth, a huge chunk of which will be guaranteed whether he's worth it or not in the end..

    Both are scary scenarios that would have any GM's sphincter winking for years. It's a perfect storm of circumstances in which there is no safe course, only guesses. Maybe Suh is the ballast we need to ride it out or maybe we need to set the McNabb spinnaker and outrun the bustard.

  11. #41
    PeoriaRam's Avatar
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    We bet on the long term last offseason when we cut Holt, Pace, Witherspoon, Tinoisamoa, et al. loose. To vacillate and waver now would be a mistake. Especially since 33 year old Evinrudes tend to lack a certain amount of ompf.

    Once again...we aren't winning a lot next year, because we need two years of concerted offseason work to fix things and build the supporting cast of a winner (including this one). All I want in the stopgap QB is mentoring ability and a reasonable amount of durability.

    If you are unwilling to tolerate this unchangeable state of affairs, might I suggest following another team for next fall. I'm not sure which, since methinks the NCAA is going to smash USC, but I guess there is always UCLA.

    ------------------------------------------

    Kevin Kolb is the only Eagle QB I would consider pursuing. However, as Kolb is most definitively the QB of the future in Philly, he isn't being moved.

    We'll have to find the Messiahback elsewhere.
    Last edited by PeoriaRam; -01-16-2010 at 03:50 AM.

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    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    That philosophy gives you an active roster with fully 2/3rds of the players being drafted in the 6th Round or lower, with nearly half of that total being undrafted.

    We did that towards the end of this past season. The results speak for themselves. Smaller eggs have less talent than large eggs, and at some point you need talent in the NFL.

    -------------------------

    What are we going to surround McNabb with? Our offense is not built to single-handedly win games, but neglecting the defense or throwing cheap players at the problem (like say the GSOT Rams) isn't going to improve the defense. We are more in a position to build a defense-oriented team with a ball-control game managing offense. Such offenses do not need "explosive" 33 year old QBs who need to be surrounded with good to elite receivers and running backs.

    What also is left unaddressed are McNabb's contractual demands. He is going to demand Bulger money per year over 3 or 4. We'd effectively be swapping one big contract for another; only we'd be paying out to an old guy.
    How do you know that a future high 3rd won't pan out better than a 2nd? That's the only change in the "meat" of the draft.The value of the #1 is arguably negated by the guaranteed cost, regardless of productivity. The boost of McNabb also counteracts the loss of whatever that productivity would be.

    And I'm sure we'd get some front seven players with the savings and /or the draft . Just because the Rams busted on so many 2-4 rounders in the past doesn't mean it'll happen again. In fact, doesn't your argument depend on it ? We need more than a DT, no matter how good, in the next two drafts to fix that defense,imo.

    Guess we'll have to disagree on how far away the offense is. I think it is at a stage now where a McNabb's unique profile could indeed jumpstart it. There may even be more urgency about doing that to get the best out of SJ, Bell, Karney, & several of the other significant players who will be into the second half or later of the average NFL career before any new franchise signal caller would be likely to match his impact on them.Or the next Boller which is what we are likely to end up with from among the other funky options for a stopgap.

    The money is a stumbling block but frontload it in the form of a signing bonus that won't affect the future cap, account for the savings on the Suh, Bulger, and Atogwe contracts & I think you come out significantly ahead even with a high guarantee.Mcnabb would be a financial risk, for sure, but he might be willing to come cheaper than you think for a clearly-open starter spot under Spags and Shurmur because of the easy transition factor.
    Last edited by Azul e Oro; -01-16-2010 at 04:17 AM.

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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    We bet on the long term last offseason when we cut Holt, Pace, Witherspoon, Tinoisamoa, et al. loose. To vacillate and waver now would be a mistake. Especially since 33 year old Evinrudes tend to lack a certain amount of ompf.

    Once again...we aren't winning a lot next year, because we need two years of concerted offseason work to fix things and build the supporting cast of a winner (including this one). All I want in the stopgap QB is mentoring ability and a reasonable amount of durability.

    If you are unwilling to tolerate this unchangeable state of affairs, might I suggest following another team for next fall. I'm not sure which, since methinks the NCAA is going to smash USC, but I guess there is always UCLA.

    ------------------------------------------

    Kevin Kolb is the only Eagle QB I would consider pursuing. However, as Kolb is most definitively the QB of the future in Philly, he isn't being moved.

    We'll have to find the Messiahback elsewhere.
    Eminently sensible position & one that seems very likely based on what we know of the DeSpags MO.

    As to your suggestion that I find another team....after 40 years of this rooting for The Rams through high & low, I'm unlikely to quit now when the future is looking as bright, if frustratingly distant, as it has for many a moon.

    And I am a CAL fan for life as well which is also a matter of heart since I'm an alumnus- I'd rather boil myself Stanford red than root for either USC or UCLA -but it also happens to be easy on my wardrobe budget since blue & gold works for both.

  14. #44
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    How do you know that a future high 3rd won't pan out better than a 2nd? That's the only change in the "meat" of the draft.The value of the #1 is arguably negated by the guaranteed cost, regardless of productivity. The boost of McNabb also counteracts the loss of whatever that productivity would be.
    I don't. However, probability dictates that the 2nd is more likely to pay off than the 3rd. There is more talent in the 2nd round, and talent is critical. Also, there isn't a huge amount of savings in dropping down in the 2nd Round.

    The Patriots love 2nd Round picks; great talent, cheap price. In this regard, let's emulate them.

    The opportunity cost of sacrificing the best DT prospect in more than a decade. Even if he is not as productive as Sapp or Peppers, he is going to be a very good DT for a long time-far longer than McNabb will continue to be a very good QB. Additionally, the contract situation between those two is a wash-McNabb will demand almost as much money as Suh would over a 3 to 4 year period, as he knows he is confronting a likely decline in skill and therefore in money he can command in 2 years.

    And I'm sure we'd get some front seven players with the savings and /or the draft . Just because the Rams busted on so many 2-4 rounders in the past doesn't mean it'll happen again. In fact, doesn't your argument depend on it ? We need more than a DT, no matter how good, in the next two drafts to fix that defense,imo.
    Our pass rush has been anemic for most of the decade, which in turn has exposed the weaknesses in our secondary and linebacking corps. A solid run-stopping, double-team drawing DT is a force multiplier that can free up DEs, reduce pressure on linebackers to make tackle, and give QBs less time to throw-easing pressure on the secondary. We would still have holes to fill, yes, but improving the pass rush lessens the quality and caliber of defender you NEED in order to be successful at all those positions.

    Guess we'll have to disagree on how far away the offense is. I think it is at a stage now where a McNabb's unique profile could indeed jumpstart it. There may even be more urgency about doing that to get the best out of SJ, Bell, Karney, & several of the other significant players who will be into the second half or later of the average NFL career before any new franchise signal caller would be likely to match his impact on them.Or the next Boller which is what we are likely to end up with from among the other funky options for a stopgap.
    If we wish to be the offensively oriented team with immediate success that picking up an aging Messiahback would indicate, we need...(in no particular order) An offensive tackle, at least one offensive guard, an elite #1 receiver, a better Tight End, a backup running back to share the burden, and the teen squad to mature.

    Without all of this happening-6 wins next year. Tops. Our defense as currently constituted is unable to let us skate on our offensive prowess without building a juggernaut around the Messiahback, and the available free agent talent isn't there to bolster our defense, as we have passed on Suh, McCoy, and Berry and let our best Safety, who is irreplaceable in terms of what we could find elsewhere, go. More importantly, we wouldn't do better in 2011 either, as a now 35 year old McNabb falls off (poorly constituted teams like the Rams tend to exacerbate a star's decline.)

    The money is a stumbling block but frontload it in the form of a signing bonus that won't affect the future cap, account for the savings on the Suh, Bulger, and Atogwe contracts & I think you come out significantly ahead even with a high guarantee.Mcnabb would be a financial risk, for sure, but he might be willing to come cheaper than you think for a clearly-open starter spot under Spags and Shurmur because of the easy transition factor.
    Entourages need to be paid, mansions need to have their mortgages paid off, and McNabb is not getting any younger. He will not come cheaply, because he knows this will be his last big deal. At the very best, this merely pushes back the rebuild a year, because we have to reprioritize funds for components to build around for McNabb NOW, as opposed to building for protracted success in the future.

    Of course, we could also play signing bonus games with Suh. There is more to this than money. We also have to ask ourselves, who will be more helpful to us past next year? Who will be more helpful to us in 3 years? That is the needed mindset to have in a rebuild. Not "who is more explosive", or "who has better fantasy stats," or "who can kick more butt in Madden."

    I, and most people here, am thinking about how the 3 to 4 seasons after 2010. Are you?

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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    That last point is news to me. Don't know if it could be fixed by separating the deals in nothing but name. Is there a precedent either way?
    I don't know if there's a precedent, but the Rams aren't getting a third round pick for OJ unless (1) Philadelphia signs a tendered Atogwe to an offer sheet independently, or (2) the Rams demand a third round pick be included with McNabb in the trade.

    But if the Rams offer their first, a 2011 second, and Atogwe to the Eagles for McNabb, Philadelphia wouldn't owe the Rams a third round pick on top of that just because Atogwe is a RFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Overall, I'm not sure how I could have made the intent of the thread any more clear than titling it "What would you give up for McNabb?"
    Fair enough. I just don't see much reason to seem perplexed at the majority of the response being about your proposal when it was your proposal that seemed to make up the majority of your original post. Not an important point of contention, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    In general, I'm a little leery of only betting on the long term.The trick is a balance, I think, & there are no set rules; it depends on the individual factors which are many and complex in their implications and never black & white, eg all well & good to talk of possible decade long careers but the average remains 3-4,no? Picks are a resource but so is money, cap or not. Big money talent is not affecting the win/loss bottom line as much as it should because of the QB situation (SJ, Bell, Brown, Smith) nor is it likely to be with a cheapie stopgap or with a rookie.
    And I think if you looked around at the teams who have been able to build successful organizations and maintain them, those teams are the ones who continue to replenish talent in part through efficient drafting. Whether you're leary of it or not, the draft is arguably the best way for teams to replinish talent on their roster. Teams are able to maintain success because they replace lost talent with young talent, not because they sacrifice the chance to acquire young talent in one big gamble acquisition of older talent. Especially when it's a team like the Rams with a number of significant needs.

    So we're going to have to agree to disagree here, as I'm just not convinced that the Rams should trade a mega-package of picks and a top defensive player for a quarterback who is, at best, a short term option on a team that's trying to build for the long-term.

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