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  1. #46
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    I don't. However, probability dictates that the 2nd is more likely to pay off than the 3rd. There is more talent in the 2nd round, and talent is critical. Also, there isn't a huge amount of savings in dropping down in the 2nd Round.

    The Patriots love 2nd Round picks; great talent, cheap price. In this regard, let's emulate them.

    The opportunity cost of sacrificing the best DT prospect in more than a decade. Even if he is not as productive as Sapp or Peppers, he is going to be a very good DT for a long time-far longer than McNabb will continue to be a very good QB. Additionally, the contract situation between those two is a wash-McNabb will demand almost as much money as Suh would over a 3 to 4 year period, as he knows he is confronting a likely decline in skill and therefore in money he can command in 2 years.



    Our pass rush has been anemic for most of the decade, which in turn has exposed the weaknesses in our secondary and linebacking corps. A solid run-stopping, double-team drawing DT is a force multiplier that can free up DEs, reduce pressure on linebackers to make tackle, and give QBs less time to throw-easing pressure on the secondary. We would still have holes to fill, yes, but improving the pass rush lessens the quality and caliber of defender you NEED in order to be successful at all those positions.



    If we wish to be the offensively oriented team with immediate success that picking up an aging Messiahback would indicate, we need...(in no particular order) An offensive tackle, at least one offensive guard, an elite #1 receiver, a better Tight End, a backup running back to share the burden, and the teen squad to mature.

    Without all of this happening-6 wins next year. Tops. Our defense as currently constituted is unable to let us skate on our offensive prowess without building a juggernaut around the Messiahback, and the available free agent talent isn't there to bolster our defense, as we have passed on Suh, McCoy, and Berry and let our best Safety, who is irreplaceable in terms of what we could find elsewhere, go. More importantly, we wouldn't do better in 2011 either, as a now 35 year old McNabb falls off (poorly constituted teams like the Rams tend to exacerbate a star's decline.)



    Entourages need to be paid, mansions need to have their mortgages paid off, and McNabb is not getting any younger. He will not come cheaply, because he knows this will be his last big deal. At the very best, this merely pushes back the rebuild a year, because we have to reprioritize funds for components to build around for McNabb NOW, as opposed to building for protracted success in the future.

    Of course, we could also play signing bonus games with Suh. There is more to this than money. We also have to ask ourselves, who will be more helpful to us past next year? Who will be more helpful to us in 3 years? That is the needed mindset to have in a rebuild. Not "who is more explosive", or "who has better fantasy stats," or "who can kick more butt in Madden."

    I, and most people here, am thinking about how the 3 to 4 seasons after 2010. Are you?
    I can see & often agree with the reasoning in your points but they are far from definitive facts.

    The relative value of a mid-2nd pick( my estimate of where The Rams would be with a DM boost to the win column) to a top 3rd is not that great,imo. Certainly not enough in most instances to justify this exaggerated prediction that it would gut the draft-based rebuilding process.

    That Suh is going to be anything is a guess either in terms of productivity or longevity. McNabb's age is a concern for his value over a number of years but based on his recent proven productivity & health, not an insane one. I contend that very few DTs achieve the impact or have the long career with their draft team you predict & never have been so well-paid before earning it. Which one has more real world NFL data behind it?

    Don't see how $40+ mill guaranteed & somewhere around the $20 mill guaranteed that it would take,imo, to sign DM is a wash.I also don't see how tying up the resources on one DT for at least 5 yrs helps fill all the holes you see on the offense. And the clock is ticking expensively for Brown, Bell, SJ, Karney who most fans see as essential parts of a resurgence in the next 3-4 yrs. Or do you think we have enough picks/resources to pick & groom replacements for them,too?

    Don't see how we are emulating The Pats by banking on the huge #1 investment in one player. Give me an example of where they tied up resources in one player like that. Hoisted on your own argument's petard there,imo.

    Ditto for the Suh as cornerstone of an improved pass rush. No one but Long and Lau,imo, are young enough & shown enough to be considered a strong bet to be part of this long term improved pass rush platform.

    Isn't it possible that he will be the defensive equivalent of SJ, ie a great player whose efforts are wasted by the current group surrounding him &/or to struggle through his early career as almst all rookie DLers do through the necessary gestation period of new talent to be added /recently added? there are possibles, of course, like Scott,Carriker,ryan,etc but ,again, just guesses.

    You'll never get me to agree that OJ or anyone else on a D that bad for this long is irreplaceable or that his productivity/upside is inarguably worth a huge deal. That smacks of sentiment & a judgement based on the lowered bar of years of the defense's overall dismal performance when stated that categorically. I think he's good & hope he stays if the price isn't too high but DeSpags have made some pretty tough decisions regarding other players who also stood out a sbright spots on the D such as Pisa and Spoon.Maybe their long view value wasn't as high but we had no one to replace them at all whereas Dahl is a legit contender,imo. They also played more highly-valued positions in terms of supporting the pass rush & short game pass D which I agree is the biggest issue for The Rams and cost much less.

    Time to go watch Kurt work his magic & moon over what might have been..


  2. #47
    ManofGod's Avatar
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Ah, someone needs a drug test(lol)

  3. #48
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofGod View Post
    Ah, someone needs a drug test(lol)
    If the season started tomorrow & no changes were made to The Rams roster other than health, what remotely available QB would instantly improve The Rams chances of winning more than McNabb?

    I don't think you have to be drug-addled to find that at least an intriguing proposition.You can blame the caffeine for the wordy rambling but the intrigue was what I believe they call a pre-existing condition. Which sucks because my insurance won't cover my rehab....

    Of course the compensation I proposed is unrealistic in so many ways but I didn't intend for it to be the focus; just kinda happened & I just tried to keep up my end of the conversation & link it to some larger issues.I hate it when people start a thread & don't respond even if it means playing repetitious Devil's Advocate.

    Besides, not much else to talk about that intrigues me as much:

    Suh is a no-brainer inevitability to me without some major event.

    None of the NFL QBs available are remotely exciting.All of the draft QBs that would be interesting to talk about are hurt & we need to wait for med reports,imo, before discussing them at all.

    The FA market is dead.

    Too far from the draft to pay attention to the mocks beyond #1.

    What's left that isn't even more of a dead horse?

  4. #49
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Calling Mcnabb that really wasn't necessary man, and if you have to start that crap you can go on the whiner boards and spam them with it.

    And 37 cents? Really? what does mcnabb do so bad that makes you hate him so?
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -01-17-2010 at 01:51 PM.

  5. #50
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    If the season started tomorrow & no changes were made to The Rams roster other than health, what remotely available QB would instantly improve The Rams chances of winning more than McNabb?

    I don't think you have to be drug-addled to find that at least an intriguing proposition.You can blame the caffeine for the wordy rambling but the intrigue was what I believe they call a pre-existing condition. Which sucks because my insurance won't cover my rehab....

    Of course the compensation I proposed is unrealistic in so many ways but I didn't intend for it to be the focus; just kinda happened & I just tried to keep up my end of the conversation & link it to some larger issues.I hate it when people start a thread & don't respond even if it means playing repetitious Devil's Advocate.

    Besides, not much else to talk about that intrigues me as much:

    Suh is a no-brainer inevitability to me without some major event.

    None of the NFL QBs available are remotely exciting.All of the draft QBs that would be interesting to talk about are hurt & we need to wait for med reports,imo, before discussing them at all.

    The FA market is dead.

    Too far from the draft to pay attention to the mocks beyond #1.

    What's left that isn't even more of a dead horse?
    Azul, you know I love ya man, and we agree 98% of the time on most topics, here are my thoughts....

    Is McNabb an upgrade over what we have currently at QB: Yes
    Is he worth the compensation you suggested: No
    Is he injury prone: Yes, he has been in the past & he's not getting any younger

    In addition, he has a tendency to choke in big games, we don't need that in St. Louie.
    Last edited by ManofGod; -01-17-2010 at 01:16 AM.

  6. #51
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bralidore(RAMMODE) View Post
    Calling Mcnabb that really wasn't necessary man, and if you have to start that crap you can go on the whiner boards and spam them with it.

    And 37 cents? Really? what does mcnabb do so bad that makes you hate him so?
    37 cents isn't a sign of hatred. It's a sign that he doesn't think McNabb is even worth that comically minimal effort to acquire him, and the more I think about it, the more I tend to agree. From every perspective except that of the immediate short term, McNabb is more of a hindrance to the Rams than an aid. Honestly, I wouldn't pursue him if he was a free agent as I think about it.
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -01-17-2010 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #52
    Flippin' Ram's Avatar
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Your only excuse for saying you want that kind of trade is if you were typing this while drunk on two glasses of moonshine. I'm sorry but O.J. Atogwe and two picks in the draft ain't worth it. Now I like McNabb but that sounds like one of the worst deals for us to ever make since Chicago aquired Jay Cutler for a couple of round picks...

  8. #53
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofGod View Post
    Is McNabb an upgrade over what we have currently at QB: Yes
    Is he worth the compensation you suggested: No
    i think that sums up pretty much what most people in this topic think

  9. #54
    sntlouisrams is offline Registered User
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    The compensation is way over the top in that instance if suh turns out to be the best DT for 5-10years and we got an aging qb thats a short term fix and wouldnt help us when dm retires weve lost everything. for what few years of him qb. waste i tell you why not take sam bradford or jimmy clausen and not waste trading players and another draft pick on a qb tht would be around for donkeys years. Or yet still wait till next year and draft locker and trade alot to get him.

  10. #55
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    I appreciate the,uh, detailed thoughtful rebuttal. What's crazy about getting a dynamic game-changer at a critical position of need for 2 unknowns and a DB who may have peaked & may cost more than he's worth to either tag or sign longterm?

    I think my argument for McNabb is detailed enough except to say that it's definitely not crazy to contend that MCNabb would be the best QB the Rams have had since Gabriel except for Warner's brief heyday.

    I also think that The Spags/Shurmur factor makes such a deal less improbable than you might think.And I think the tv guys were right; if he wants to play after that 2 yr extension for a payday, he's probably going to have to leave & soon before his trade stock drops. Why not go be the hero on a team with the same sysytem ,familiar trusted coaches,in an easier division where he can get a better longer deal? Maybe The Rams would be a hard sell as an upcoming team but Philly's O-line is in rebuild mode, whereas ours is solidifying & also with likely a much better running game now that Westbrook is fading. This may have been his last shot at a SB in Philly, anyway.

    Maybe I am crazy but this could be the Faulk deal of the new decade...LOL.. And I'm sure he'd have more impact on the win/loss column than Suh in his rookie season.
    I'm sorry but brees/manning or brady would not do much with the present Rams. Most Ram FANS or fans in general do not realize that in 2006 Bulger had a decent team and he was the 3rd best QB in the NFL. Bulger had better stats than Favre, palmer, brady, roth, eli, etc, etc. Bulger is only 32 yrs old, which is 1 year younger than Mcnabb and he has had a more than decent QB rating if you remove the last 2 years. This Rams team has been plagued with injuries and have lost many good players. Bulger has good precision just does not have enough time in the pocket.

    I like Bulger and if he had a good line would be one of the good QB's in the league
    .
    Last edited by rob6465; -01-17-2010 at 09:39 AM.

  11. #56
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    Re: What would you give up for Donovan McNabb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Thank you, NW. It's a pity ClanRam have hardly offered up any serious & detailed who/why/what ideas of what they WOULD consider giving up to get him in the same manner. The main point of the exercise, in other words.
    Regarding the specific compensation, I think you'd structure it similarly to the Favre-to-the-Jets deal. In other words, it would be a conditional future pick that at its highest value would be a single first round pick if Donovan McNabb led us to the Super Bowl in the 2010 season. I don't know all of the details of that trade, but for the rest of my criteria here, I'd say play-offs would be a 2nd round pick, winning record with key personal performance indicators would be a 3rd, and anything else a 4th rounder.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob6465 View Post
    I'm sorry but brees/manning or brady would not do much with the present Rams. Most Ram FANS or fans in general do not realize that in 2006 Bulger had a decent team and he was the 3rd best QB in the NFL. Bulger had better stats than Favre, palmer, brady, roth, eli, etc, etc. Bulger is only 32 yrs old, which is 1 year younger than Mcnabb and he has had a more than decent QB rating if you remove the last 2 years. This Rams team has been plagued with injuries and have lost many good players. Bulger has good precision just does not have enough time in the pocket.

    I like Bulger and if he had a good line would be one of the good QB's in the league
    .
    Entire teams don't become bad overnight unless you have some kind of cap purge or the like. The offensive personnel did not change greatly between 2006 and 2007, but Bulger's QB rating plummeted. What did change was the offensive system. Bulger has not had a good year since Martz left.

    Also, it is actually three years running that Bulger's QB rating has been awful. His 2007 rating was worse than 2008 or 2009.

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