Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 58
  1. #16
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    The mechanics of Tim Tebow and the mechanics of Kurt Warner are in no way similar. And that doesn't even begin to look at the difference in accuracy between those two.
    They're similar in the regard that they're both poor and in no way ideal. Kurt Warner is a fan favorite and might go down as an all time great. Turn on a game though and you can see his mechanics and delivery were nothing good and again, in no way ideal. In fact they were very flawed. Which just goes to show you how important this aspect is in regards to production at the NFL level. Hence the mention.

    No one mentioned accuracy. Obviously, like I mentioned previously, other determining factors... such as accuracy are much more important in QB evaluation.


  2. #17
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,585
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    They're similar in the regard that they're both poor and in no way ideal. Kurt Warner is a fan favorite and might go down as an all time great. Turn on a game though and you can see his mechanics and delivery were nothing good and again, in no way ideal. In fact they were very flawed. Which just goes to show you how important this aspect is in regards to production at the NFL level. Hence the mention.

    No one mentioned accuracy. Obviously, like I mentioned previously, other determining factors... such as accuracy are much more important in QB evaluation.
    Not that I've ever heard a lot of critique regarding Warner's mechanics, but the difference in the two is the time needed for release. Warner......quick release (ie. less reaction time available for coverage). Tebow......sloooooow release (ie. more reaction time available for coverage).
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #18
    TheRammer Guest

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Tim Tebow=wasted draft pick. The Rams are in no position to waste a draft pick. Especially if it is a second rounder. The Rams are in no position to draft a guy who may or may not develop. The Rams need players not what if guys. In my opinion Tebow will suck as an NFL qb. The Rams need to pick players who can contribute right away. Everyone already knows Tebow isnt ready to contribute. People were saying the same thing about Alex Smith who came out of the same offense. Smith was drafted in the 1st round and is still struggling today. Do the Rams really want to wait that long for a qb to develop? I don't think they do, let someone else make the mistake that is Tim Tebow.
    There is no way in hell we will waste a 2nd or 3rd round on this guy... i'd start worrying if he's still there come about the fifth round then maybe I could see it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    They're similar in the regard that they're both poor and in no way ideal. Kurt Warner is a fan favorite and might go down as an all time great. Turn on a game though and you can see his mechanics and delivery were nothing good and again, in no way ideal. In fact they were very flawed. Which just goes to show you how important this aspect is in regards to production at the NFL level. Hence the mention.

    No one mentioned accuracy. Obviously, like I mentioned previously, other determining factors... such as accuracy are much more important in QB evaluation.
    You cannot compare Warner's and Tebow's delivery at all, Warner has a very very quick release and is dead on accurate from years of experience from muscle memory of conforming to that from arena football and some nfl europe... now if we did take him the few months wouldnt be enough to change this just like a nFL analyst said " once he starts getting hit you'll see his throwing motion go back because thats his natural way of throwing". It will take some years to fix this...

  4. #19
    AvengerRam's Avatar
    AvengerRam is offline Moderator Emeritus
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Longwood, Florida, United States
    Age
    46
    Posts
    18,603
    Rep Power
    167

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    I think Tebow does have an advantage over Warner in terms of running a ball control offense.

    Specifically, when Kurt throws, it takes .002 seconds off the clock for him to release the ball. When Tebow throws, it takes about 37 seconds off the clock.

  5. #20
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I think Tebow does have an advantage over Warner in terms of running a ball control offense.

    Specifically, when Kurt throws, it takes .002 seconds off the clock for him to release the ball. When Tebow throws, it takes about 37 seconds off the clock.
    Which is exactly why he is working on it. As for Warner's quick release, might be quick but by NFL standards how quick is it exactly? Just looked at two games. One versus Chicago last year and the GB playoff game from this year. Cutler has a quicker release and Rodgers is right there too.

    Just goes to show you though that even with flawed mechanics, you can improve your release time.

  6. #21
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRammer View Post
    There is no way in hell we will waste a 2nd or 3rd round on this guy... i'd start worrying if he's still there come about the fifth round then maybe I could see it...


    You cannot compare Warner's and Tebow's delivery at all, Warner has a very very quick release and is dead on accurate from years of experience from muscle memory of conforming to that from arena football and some nfl europe... now if we did take him the few months wouldnt be enough to change this just like a nFL analyst said " once he starts getting hit you'll see his throwing motion go back because thats his natural way of throwing". It will take some years to fix this...
    Never advocated selecting Tim Tebow. Especially for the Rams, who can't afford to take on a project like him. You seem to be missing the point though. #1: KW's mechanics are very flawed. #2: You can still play and win in this league with flawed mechanics. If you insist on disagreeing, disagree one of those two things for me please.

  7. #22
    AvengerRam's Avatar
    AvengerRam is offline Moderator Emeritus
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Longwood, Florida, United States
    Age
    46
    Posts
    18,603
    Rep Power
    167

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Are you serious? Please tell me you're just goofing on us.

    Here's the bottom line... a QB who, in February after his last college game, has to hire a coach to fix his throwing motion, is worth no more than a 6th or 7th round pick - no matter how many games he won in college, no matter what a "great leader" he is, no matter what his other skills are.

    How do people not get this?

  8. #23
    TheRammer Guest

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    Never advocated selecting Tim Tebow. Especially for the Rams, who can't afford to take on a project like him. You seem to be missing the point though. #1: KW's mechanics are very flawed. #2: You can still play and win in this league with flawed mechanics. If you insist on disagreeing, disagree one of those two things for me please.
    Dude your comparing a ferrari with a minor dent in it to one that has been t-boned by a semi in aspect to throwing motion... watch tebows tape it takes him 37 seconds like AV says to get the ball out.
    Honestly I'd love to see him fix things and prove everybody wrong and become successful, he's a great person and I personally like him but honestly I think it's something that is to much for him to overcome...

  9. #24
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Are you serious? Please tell me you're just goofing on us.

    Here's the bottom line... a QB who, in February after his last college game, has to hire a coach to fix his throwing motion, is worth no more than a 6th or 7th round pick - no matter how many games he won in college, no matter what a "great leader" he is, no matter what his other skills are.

    How do people not get this?
    My first post on the subject, I mentioned I wouldn't touch him before our 5b pick but realistically I'd value him as a project worth no more than a 6th or 7th to the Rams, who in all actuality would have to battle Null and Reilly for a job. The Rams aren't in any real position to be drafting guys like Tebow anyways. Too much work needed, too much time to invest for this franchise. That's being real.

    A few people seem to be missing the point on the KW topic though. Sadly.

  10. #25
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRammer View Post
    Dude your comparing a ferrari with a minor dent in it to one that has been t-boned by a semi in aspect to throwing motion... watch tebows tape it takes him 37 seconds like AV says to get the ball out.
    Honestly I'd love to see him fix things and prove everybody wrong and become successful, he's a great person and I personally like him but honestly I think it's something that is to much for him to overcome...
    I thought I was comparing a future HoF QB to a guy who might not even pan out in the NFL. Silly me.

    Still, you failed to address neither #1 or #2. This has nothing to do with comparing Tim Tebow's throwing mechanics to Kurt Warner's point for point. You're seem to be stuck on that though.

    Like I said, if you want to disagree on something, address one of these two things:

    #1: Kurt Warner's flawed mechanics. This isn't really debatable. It's a fact. Turn on a game tape (from any year) and see for yourself. 3/4 release at best, never threw over the top, often times would throw the ball sidearm. This is not ideal. It's below ideal. Led to tons of batted down balls. Carrying the ball at waist level. Not ideal either. Led to lots of unnecessary fumbles. Maybe the entire reason he lost his job as a Ram and got a floppy thumb. Commonly throwing the ball off of his back foot. Less than ideal at the NFL level. Led to lots of poor throws and unnecessary interceptions. This is just to name a few things that come to mind. things that scouts would be scrutinizing right now if he were to be graded as an NFL prospect and remember, he was at one time and came out of that as an Undrafted Free Agent.

    #2: Still, despite flawed mechanics. He was still extremely productive at the NFL level for several years, for several teams.

    Obviously, mechanics, are not as big an issue as people make it out to be in the draft evaluation process. You can still get by with some less than ideal things regarding footwork and mechanics. It's absolutely not mandatory to being successful at the next level, like some other things are. That's the point. Let that sink in.

    Accuracy, arm strength, poise under pressure (mental and physical), leadership, those are a few qualities imo that seem to be necessary to being a successful NFL QB. Perfect or ideal mechanics is not one of them.

  11. #26
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,585
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Ramzee, I'm at a loss. I'm just not sure how to make this simplier.....

    Kurt Warner = Quick release, accurate
    Tim Tebow = Slow release, not accurate

    Lump all mechanics in together if you wish, but it's the result of those mechanics that is important; not the mechanics themselves. If Tebow could somehow manage to use that looooooong wind up and still have as quick as a release as Warner, nobody would be talking about his mechanics. If Tebow somehow had the same accuracy as Warner, nobody would be talking about his mechanics.

    However, Tebow is NOT as accurate as Warner; Tebow does NOT have a release as quick as Warner. Therefore, his mechanics ARE a problem.

    And as to Warner, Ron Jaworski is on the record as saying Warner had poor mechanics..........before working with Martz........11 years ago.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  12. #27
    laram0's Avatar
    laram0 is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Age
    57
    Posts
    9,218
    Rep Power
    108

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    If Tebow is still on the board for the 5th round of the draft I would take a gamble on him. Of course that depends on alot of other factors. Have we brought in a free agent QB and who or whom did we select in the first 4 rounds?

    This kid may have QB mechanical issues but he has the rest of the package. He has the "IT" factor.
    He's a smart kid (football smart too) with a ton of desire to succeed. With that attitude how hard is it going to be for an "NFL" coach/teacher in getting Tebow on the right track mechanical wise? I'll say it again, if he's available in the 5th I hope we select him.

  13. #28
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Ramzee, I'm at a loss. I'm just not sure how to make this simplier.....

    Kurt Warner = Quick release, accurate
    Tim Tebow = Slow release, not accurate

    Lump all mechanics in together if you wish, but it's the result of those mechanics that is important; not the mechanics themselves. If Tebow could somehow manage to use that looooooong wind up and still have as quick as a release as Warner, nobody would be talking about his mechanics. If Tebow somehow had the same accuracy as Warner, nobody would be talking about his mechanics.

    However, Tebow is NOT as accurate as Warner; Tebow does NOT have a release as quick as Warner. Therefore, his mechanics ARE a problem.

    And as to Warner, Ron Jaworski is on the record as saying Warner had poor mechanics..........before working with Martz........11 years ago.
    At a loss for what? You make it sound like you're disagreeing with me. You're not. In fact you're furthering my point. You're right, it has nothing to do with the mechanics, just the result of them. My point was and still is, you can win in this league without ideal mechanics. This is a stand alone point that has nothing to do with Tim Tebow. There's the rub that people aren't getting past.

    One thing you're wrong about though, even though you didn't say it, is in the fact that there is nothing wrong with Kurt Warner's mechanics. There is and it did have negative consequences over the course of his career, which I did mention. In his batted down balls, fumbles and interceptions. Which imo happened to be more than was necessary, due to the flawed mechanics. So his were a problem too.

    As for Jaworski comment, I can careless about that. Warner himself is on record saying how hard Martz fought him and pushed him on the mechanics issue when he was in St. Louis and you can find that in any Martz to the Bears/Cutler article. And fact is the eyes tell the story here, turn on the game tape. He was very accurate, he had a quick release but his mechanics still weren't ideal or up to par where they should have been but they still proved to be more than adequate. Which is the point. Mechanics aren't the end all be all of prospects. They can be improved and you can get by with them being less than ideal.

    Back to Tebow, we're still talking about a guy who hasn't even been drafted yet, who hasn't even played one down in this league. The way he's being talked about is as if he is incapable of improvement. Incapable of it now and ever. That's not true. No one could know that. Not you, me or anyone else. As it stands right now, I don't put much value into him as a prospect or a player, especially for this team but the one thing I won't do is count him out. Anything is possible.

  14. #29
    Goldenfleece's Avatar
    Goldenfleece is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Age
    32
    Posts
    3,586
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Come on, the Kurt comparison is off base. I remember when there was the controversy between Marc and Kurt, and the announcers would show footage to argue how little time there was between when Kurt made a decision and when the ball got out.

    The only articles I can find that mention Warner, Martz, and Cutler together indicate that Warner's mechanics needed work before he started working with Martz, and the improvement was the difference between him being an arena league quarterback and a star. That would seem to suggest that improving his mechanics was critical to his success.

  15. #30
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    5

    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    Come on, the Kurt comparison is off base. I remember when there was the controversy between Marc and Kurt, and the announcers would show footage to argue how little time there was between when Kurt made a decision and when the ball got out.

    The only articles I can find that mention Warner, Martz, and Cutler together indicate that Warner's mechanics needed work before he started working with Martz, and the improvement was the difference between him being an arena league quarterback and a star. That would seem to suggest that improving his mechanics was critical to his success.
    I don't know that I'd go that far. Articles refer to Warner saying Martz can help Cutler with his mechanics and footwork, that Martz was all over his ass about his own when he came to the Rams.

    I don't know why this is so hard to understand though. It's not about Tebow's mechanics specifically compared to Warner's. It's about Warner's not being perfect, never were and still weren't to this day. Tebow isn't the first guy to come into the league with bad mechanics and won't be the last but there will be guys who come into this league with bad mechanics, that will fix them, at least to the point where they can be successful.

    If you want another example, just take a look at Rivers, who was an absolute hot mess when he came into the league. He's worked at his and they're still ackward but it hasn't stopped him from being successful in the league. He won't be the last guy either. Fact is guys can get away with having flawed mechanics in this league. It's not a critical factor that can't be worked on and improved... like say arm strength, accuracy, poise, etc.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •