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  1. #31
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    It's not about Tebow's mechanics specifically compared to Warner's.
    Then why did you make the comparison, Zach? This thread is about Tim Tebow. Tim Tebow has poor mechanics. You attempt to assuage the argument against Tebow's mechanics by saying Warner had poor mechanics and he won games. Then when many inform you of the difference between Warner and Tebow, you say this has nothing to do with Tebow.

    And you don't see where the confusion comes from?
    At a loss for what?
    I can't imagine, Zach.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #32
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Not to jump into the debate late but after reading this thread here is how I think the Tebow vs Warner comparison is relevant.

    A lot of people don't think Tebow will be successful in the NFL, I have been one of them, but a lot of people also didn't think Warner, Brees, Romo, Brady, etc would be that successful. They were overlooked for one reason or another.

    The reasons made since at the time but we have to realize they are not cut and dry. In or Out.

    Call it the "IT" quality, call it drive, passion or just the will power not to fail but some athletes have it.

    Is Tebow one. I don't know. But watching him on TV and in person I would probably put my money on the side that says he does.

    Do I want him as our number one pick. No. But I am open to seeing how he improves himself before the draft.

    Every player has a weakness. Tebow's is mechanics, Colt is height, Pike is weight, etc... Out of all of those mechanics is the easiest to fix in my opinion.

  3. #33
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctious View Post
    Every player has a weakness. Tebow's is mechanics, Colt is height, Pike is weight, etc... Out of all of those mechanics is the easiest to fix in my opinion.
    Well, I think that we can presume that Colt McCoy won't get any taller, but I think it will be easier for Tony Pike to add a few pounds than it will be for Tebow to rework his throwing motion.

  4. #34
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Then why did you make the comparison, Zach? This thread is about Tim Tebow. Tim Tebow has poor mechanics. You attempt to assuage the argument against Tebow's mechanics by saying Warner had poor mechanics and he won games. Then when many inform you of the difference between Warner and Tebow, you say this has nothing to do with Tebow.

    And you don't see where the confusion comes from?I can't imagine, Zach.
    Second thread you've referred to me as Zach. I'm guessing there was some guy named Zach and you're referring to me as such is some sort of an attempt to discredit what I'm saying? Correct me if I'm wrong but if that's the case it seems sort of childish.

    I know it's gone over some heads here. The point hasn't changed and remains the same. Whether the example is Warner (an example used for obvious reasons on a Rams message board) or Rivers or any other guy that hasn't had perfect mechanics and required work at the pro level to improve enough to be a pro QB. Poor mechanics can be corrected. Perfect mechanics aren't required to play the QB position successfully at the next level.

    Will Tebow make the transition? I don't know. I'd say no right now but that doesn't mean it will be so. Anything can happen. Guys have done it. If you choose to think he can't or that he won't, fine. Do that. Others will too. To write him off and say he can't absolutely do it right now though is premature at best. I guarantee that.

  5. #35
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    Poor mechanics can be corrected.
    Maybe they can, maybe they cannot, but your examples don't fit your hypothesis. Warner and Rivers never really "corrected" their unorthodox throwing styles. Rather, they were able to achieve the desireable outcomes (releasing the ball quickly, throwing accurate passes) despite their throwing motions.

    Tebow, on the other hand, has a delivery that is slow as molasses, and marginal accuracy. He is changing his throwing style because he can't achieve the desired outcomes with his current style.

    Perfect mechanics aren't required to play the QB position successfully at the next level.
    Nobody said you need "perfect mechanics." Rather, the point is, if you (a) have bad mechanics, and (b) don't throw the ball very quickly or very accurately, its a pretty good bet that (a) caused (b).

  6. #36
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    I think there is a huge difference in magnitude between these examples. They said Rivers had a slightly unorthodox delivery, but it was not perceived to be a major issue.

    You could say a 5'11" receiver was short, and you could say the same thing about a guy who was 5'0". But you wouldn't argue that the success of the former was reason to think the latter could succeed, too, just because they both had the same problem.

  7. #37
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Maybe they can, maybe they cannot, but your examples don't fit your hypothesis. Warner and Rivers never really "corrected" their unorthodox throwing styles. Rather, they were able to achieve the desireable outcomes (releasing the ball quickly, throwing accurate passes) despite their throwing motions.

    Tebow, on the other hand, has a delivery that is slow as molasses, and marginal accuracy. He is changing his throwing style because he can't achieve the desired outcomes with his current style.

    [B]

    Nobody said you need "perfect mechanics." Rather, the point is, if you (a) have bad mechanics, and (b) don't throw the ball very quickly or very accurately, its a pretty good bet that (a) caused (b).
    I think you're over stating his inaccuracy. It may not be perfect but it's good enough to play at the next level. If that were the case, he'd already have made the conversion to H-Back or TE. The slow delivery is a given, yeah it's terribly slow. It's a well noted concern that is trying to be corrected. Part of that issue is carrying that ball around his hip. That part is very correctable.

    As I pointed out before, this is muscle memory. All it takes is repetition to correct. If he wants to work on it long enough, he will get the desired results. It's not a mental part of his game, except when it comes to work ethic and determination. He has that in spades. As for the, "the first time someone goes to hit him he will revert back..." that some have pointed out already, that's correct but not for the reasons stated. He will revert to his muscle memory, true. What the outcome of that muscle memory will be, is yet to be determined.

    I'm starting to feel kinda dirty talking about this though. You guys are making me out to sound like some sort of fan. Which I'm not.

  8. #38
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I think there is a huge difference in magnitude between these examples. They said Rivers had a slightly unorthodox delivery, but it was not perceived to be a major issue.

    You could say a 5'11" receiver was short, and you could say the same thing about a guy who was 5'0". But you wouldn't argue that the success of the former was reason to think the latter could succeed, too, just because they both had the same problem.
    Perhaps it's been too long since he was a prospect that was debated but he didn't have a slightly unorthodox delivery. It was very unorthodox and still is to this day. It was something, like Tebow, he spent a lot of time trying to correct between his last game and draft day. Something he continued to work on once he got to the pros too.

    This took all of two seconds to pull up and is just the first example I ran across:

    SI.com - 2004 NFL Draft - Philip Rivers

    NEGATIVES: Has a terrible throwing motion that is best described as awkward. Pushes the ball or whips it from the side and falls out of his throws. Looks like he's throwing a heavy ball and constantly changes his point of release. Cannot drive the deep pass and not accurate down the field.

  9. #39
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    I think you're over stating his inaccuracy. It may not be perfect but it's good enough to play at the next level.
    I could not disagree with you more. His success throwing at UF was largely due to the system and talent around him. He often threw to WRs who were running free w/out a DB in sight.

    As I pointed out before, this is muscle memory. All it takes is repetition to correct.
    Well, if that's all that it takes, then why not take the 2nd string QB from Idaho State and correct all his flaws? Truth is, I bet we could get him as a undrafted free agent for the league minimum.

    I know you think you have a point here, but your "anything can happen" analysis is pretty worthless when you're talking about who to take with a finite number of picks and many prospects who don't have the glaring flaws that Tebow possesses.

    By the way... if throwing motions can be corrected, does that mean a safety can correct his tackling angles too?
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -02-25-2010 at 08:58 PM.

  10. #40
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I could not disagree with you more. His success throwing at UF was largely due to the system and talent around him. He often threw to WRs who were running free w/out a DB in sight.
    So then discredit those passes and focus solely on the NFL type throws he has made in the past. There are those too.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Well, if that's all that it takes, then why not take the 2nd string QB from Idaho State and correct all his flaws? Truth is, I bet we could get him as a undrafted free agent for the league minimum.

    I know you think you have a point here, but your "anything can happen" analysis is pretty worthless when you're talking about who to take with a finite number of picks and many prospects who don't have the glaring flaws that Tebow possesses.
    You really want to compare debatably one of the best college players to ever play the game to a JAG, with no name, from Idaho St.? That comparison doesn't even come close to flying. Florida has played in one of the toughest divisions in all of college football for years. Tebow has competed at the highest level, for years. He has succeeded there. He's definitely worth evaluating. That's not in question.

    Even so, if you want to make that comparison, who's to say the guy from Idaho St. wouldn't be a better pro? Where was Kurt Warner from again? Northern Iowa. So don't give that guy a chance either. We already have one of those anyways named Keith Null. West Texas A&M. Which is who he'd be battling for a job if Tebow came in here to the Rams right now.

    I don't want Tebow on the Rams. I don't think we have the room for another project like him unless he were to somehow drop into the late rounds and that probably won't happen. Even if he were to pan out, by the time he would, Spags probably wouldn't have a job anymore. This seems out of the question to me.

    How you can write him off already though is beyond me, he hasn't even played a down in the NFL yet and I can't see one situation out there that would have him thrown to the wolves, starting in year one anyways. He will have time to sit and develop like many other guys who have and have not panned out in the NFL. Time will tell.

  11. #41
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I know you think you have a point here, but your "anything can happen" analysis is pretty worthless when you're talking about who to take with a finite number of picks and many prospects who don't have the glaring flaws that Tebow possesses.

    By the way... if throwing motions can be corrected, does that mean a safety can correct his tackling angles too?
    One other point. What guy after the 1st or 2nd round doesn't have glaring flaws to their game? Name me one perfect prospect like that. Hell name me one in the 1st round, or even #1 overall. How about the 5th round? What's the bust rate for that round again? How about the 6th? The 7th? You're telling me there are prospects in the draft that late, that you'd bypass for Tim Tebow, that don't have some sort of glaring flaw, if not a million of them? Where is that guy and why haven't we been drafting him for years now?

    As for the edit question. Seriously? Players can't be coached? You can't correct a pursuit angle of all things? There are plenty of players that have came into the NFL with a flaw, that haven't corrected it but by the same token, there are plenty of guys who have. It's called coaching. It's why those guys have jobs too.

    As far as Tebow's coachability. I think the bar is set higher there than many prospects, not just in this draft, but in many. This guy is the epitome of intangibles, hard work, leadership.

  12. #42
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    Perhaps it's been too long since he was a prospect that was debated but he didn't have a slightly unorthodox delivery. It was very unorthodox and still is to this day. It was something, like Tebow, he spent a lot of time trying to correct between his last game and draft day. Something he continued to work on once he got to the pros too.

    This took all of two seconds to pull up and is just the first example I ran across:
    And yet pretty much everybody agreed that Rivers was a top five pick in that draft, while people debate whether Tebow is even a second round value in this one. Clearly that's not because Tebow is lacking in production or intangibles. I just don't think anyone was nearly as worried about Rivers' technique overall as they are about Tebow's. It's not just the delivery, but accuracy (as other people have mentioned), footwork, and even just taking snaps behind center. If the scouts thought that his mechanics could be easily corrected, right now we'd be talking about whether he was going to go early in the first round or late in the first round.

  13. #43
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramzee View Post
    One other point. What guy after the 1st or 2nd round doesn't have glaring flaws to their game? Name me one perfect prospect like that. Hell name me one in the 1st round, or even #1 overall. How about the 5th round? What's the bust rate for that round again? How about the 6th? The 7th? You're telling me there are prospects in the draft that late, that you'd bypass for Tim Tebow, that don't have some sort of glaring flaw, if not a million of them? Where is that guy and why haven't we been drafting him for years now?

    As for the edit question. Seriously? Players can't be coached? You can't correct a pursuit angle of all things? There are plenty of players that have came into the NFL with a flaw, that haven't corrected it but by the same token, there are plenty of guys who have. It's called coaching. It's why those guys have jobs too.

    As far as Tebow's coachability. I think the bar is set higher there than many prospects, not just in this draft, but in many. This guy is the epitome of intangibles, hard work, leadership.
    Blah, blah, blah, blah blah!

    The operative questions are simple:

    Will Tebow be the best QB option available to the Rams in Round 1? No freakin' way.

    Will Tebow be the best QB option available to the Rams in Round 2? No freakin' way.

    Etc., etc., etc... until you reach around Round 5. At that point, depending on who is left, one might make a case for Tebow being the best option left in the draft.

    From what I've seen of him (and, living in Gator Country, I've seen plenty), there is no way I'd wait to take a QB until the point in the draft when Tebow is the best option.

    The rest is just your typical blather, zn.

  14. #44
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Blah, blah, blah, blah blah!

    The operative questions are simple:

    Will Tebow be the best QB option available to the Rams in Round 1? No freakin' way.

    Will Tebow be the best QB option available to the Rams in Round 2? No freakin' way.

    Etc., etc., etc... until you reach around Round 5. At that point, depending on who is left, one might make a case for Tebow being the best option left in the draft.

    From what I've seen of him (and, living in Gator Country, I've seen plenty), there is no way I'd wait to take a QB until the point in the draft when Tebow is the best option.

    The rest is just your typical blather, zn.
    Nothing to say to argue the point, so just write it off as typical blather? Got it. This is starting to look like a common theme around here.

    The funny thing though is really, you agree with me. I don't want him in the first round. I don't want him in the 2nd round. In fact I don't want him on this team in any round, because it doesn't make sense for the Rams. Although if I had to choose one, our 5b at best, if not later, seems to fit in nicely with the risk versus reward. If I can live with guys like Dustin Fry, and Roy Schuening, I can definitely live with them wasting a pick on Tim Tebow and him not working out.

  15. #45
    Ramzee is offline Registered User
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    Re: Where there's a will...there's a....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    And yet pretty much everybody agreed that Rivers was a top five pick in that draft, while people debate whether Tebow is even a second round value in this one. Clearly that's not because Tebow is lacking in production or intangibles. I just don't think anyone was nearly as worried about Rivers' technique overall as they are about Tebow's. It's not just the delivery, but accuracy (as other people have mentioned), footwork, and even just taking snaps behind center. If the scouts thought that his mechanics could be easily corrected, right now we'd be talking about whether he was going to go early in the first round or late in the first round.
    Everybody agreed? This is what you would call revisionist history. That is not how it went down in 2004. Not on draft day and certainly not back in January or February (which is where we're at right now) of that year.

    Rivers may have ended up being drafted at #6 overall but there was no consensus about it like you seem to be suggesting. There were guys who thought he should be a 2nd round pick at best. It's pretty much a common theme in every draft. Someone says QB isn't worth this or that pick and QB gets picked higher than that anyways because they are a QB.

    Tebow certainly has a lot of questions to answer. Much more than just his mechanicas and delivery, you're right about that. That's a big reason there is so much disparity about him as a prospect right now. But teams/scouts were definitely concerned about Rivers mechanics as well. There were very serious concerns. You seem to be understating them, by a large margin,. Once again, he's not even the only example. There are plenty.

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