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  1. #16
    Dominating D's Avatar
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post


    I think the problem here lies in the comparison. The very fact that there are potentially four top 10 OT's this year suggests that when making comparison, draftniks will be inclined to scrutinize these players more heavily sheerly because of the competition they face. It's obvious that player 'x' won't be as good as player 'y' in particular areas of the game, and where player 'y' falters, 'x' will succeed. As a result, you get the following kinds of opinions floating about. None of these are specific quotes, but I feel they are representative of consensus.

    IMO, these sort of comparisons stimulate a biased and often incorrect perception of the top 4 OT's and it's unfair to critique them as harshly as they are on the basis of "Oh, Oher can do that better".
    Last time I heard two or more guys playing the same position and the debate of who was better I believe it was Peyton Manning and some other GUY???????

    If your a new head coach and fairly new GM of the RAMS and your want to draft one of the 4 OT in the draft you better get it right or go in a different direction...

    GO RAMS


  2. #17
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Last time I heard two or more guys playing the same position and the debate of who was better I believe it was Peyton Manning and some other GUY???????
    Oh really?

    Just off hand...

    Chris Long/Vernon Gholston
    Leon Hall/Darelle Revis
    Brandon Albert/Ryan Clady
    Limas Sweed/DeSean Jackson/Devin Thomas
    Donavon McNabb/Akili Smith/Daunte Culepepper
    Matt Leinart/Vince Young
    Ronnie Brown/Cedric Benson/Carnell Williams
    Anrell Rolle/Adam Jones/Carlos Rogers
    Demarcus Ware/Shawne Merriman
    Jamaal Brown/Alex Barron
    Aaron Rodgers/Alex Smith
    Amobi Okoye/Adam Carriker

  3. #18
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    There are a million variables that go into making a selection...with bad choice makers like Matt Millen getting weeded out of the NFL, your going to see more and more unpredictability in the draft...there are just going to be more teams making good decisions for their football teams...atleast that's what I feel...

    There have been so many good post that I wanna add to in this thread that I'm not going to go back and quote everything but...

    * Not many thought Jake Long was a prototype left tackle. He struggled against speed and though he didn't give up a sacks, his man still beat him at times and it was always that speed rusher...alot of people thought that he was a better fit a right tackle and that would slightly decrease his value..for one reason or another left tackles are valued higher because the position requires a broader skill set and a more uncommon athletic ability. Parcells tried to trade out of the pick if you recall...he didn't have any takers which would leave me to believe that he felt the same way about Jake Long that some on this board feel about the tackles in this class...good players but might not be worth the money...last year was also a deep class for offensive linemen.

    * It's always helpful to go through history to find trends but the NFL is an ever changing league of trends...in 2001, Lawyer Milloy for New England, Rodney Harrison for San Diego and John Lynch for Tampa Bay were chosen to play strong safety in the Pro Bowl...in the 2002 NFL Draft...stong safety Roy Williams of Texas was selected 8th overall by the Dallas Cowboys. That same draft, Ed Reed was selected by the Baltimore Ravens 24th overall...since then, the same type of safeties that were Pro Bowlers and Top 10 selections in '02 are now shunned upon in the draft...

    That same Pro Bowl...Garrison Hearst of the *****, Corey Dillon of the Bengals, Mike Alstott of the Bucs and Jerome Bettis of the Steelers were in the Pro Bowl in 2001...the only two runningbacks selected in the first round in 2002? William Green to the Browns and TJ Duckett to the Falcons. It was the same draft that had Clinton Portis (2nd Rd-Denver) and Brian Westbrook (3rd Rd-Philadephia).

    The trick of it is that you don't wanna look at what everyone else is doing, or what is popular that year...you need to find out what is best for YOUR team...period.

  4. #19
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Last time I heard two or more guys playing the same position and the debate of who was better I believe it was Peyton Manning and some other GUY???????
    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    Oh really?

    Just off hand...

    Chris Long/Vernon Gholston
    Leon Hall/Darelle Revis
    Brandon Albert/Ryan Clady
    Limas Sweed/DeSean Jackson/Devin Thomas
    Donavon McNabb/Akili Smith/Daunte Culepepper
    Matt Leinart/Vince Young
    Ronnie Brown/Cedric Benson/Carnell Williams
    Anrell Rolle/Adam Jones/Carlos Rogers
    Demarcus Ware/Shawne Merriman
    Jamaal Brown/Alex Barron
    Aaron Rodgers/Alex Smith
    Amobi Okoye/Adam Carriker
    Exactly. As Bar-bq points out, the question practically comes up every year. This year, it's in relation to the offensive tackles. Last year, it was the defensive ends/3-4 LBs. In 2006, it was the QBs. In 2005, it was the QBs, RBs, OTs and DBs.

    If you don't think there's a debate every year about two players at the same position, then you've been living in a cave.

  5. #20
    Dominating D's Avatar
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    Oh really?

    Just off hand...

    Chris Long/Vernon Gholston
    Leon Hall/Darelle Revis
    Brandon Albert/Ryan Clady
    Limas Sweed/DeSean Jackson/Devin Thomas
    Donavon McNabb/Akili Smith/Daunte Culepepper
    Matt Leinart/Vince Young
    Ronnie Brown/Cedric Benson/Carnell Williams
    Anrell Rolle/Adam Jones/Carlos Rogers
    Demarcus Ware/Shawne Merriman
    Jamaal Brown/Alex Barron
    Aaron Rodgers/Alex Smith
    Amobi Okoye/Adam Carriker
    Maybe I did not make it clear. My fault.

    I was talking about the top position the 1st and 2nd pick in the draft.... Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf... Your examples are nice but do not reflect the top two spots...

  6. #21
    PeoriaRam's Avatar
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Maybe I did not make it clear. My fault.

    I was talking about the top position the 1st and 2nd pick in the draft.... Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf... Your examples are nice but do not reflect the top two spots...
    That's because it is very rare that #1 and #2 in the draft have the same needs at the same position.

  7. #22
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    That's because it is very rare that #1 and #2 in the draft have the same needs at the same position.
    I guess need is more important than talent.

    I say give me a chance at MJ and I will roll the dice eveytime. Need what position can you honestly say the Rams have locked up with talent???

    Just give me 1 postion that the Rams do not need playmakers....

    RB Jackson great #1 but when was the last time he played a full season

    LB Plenty of needs

    QB Bulger when was the last time he played an entire season?

    DE Long only plays one side

    DT two young players still can use more talent

    OT Barron and Greco with the aging Pace.

    CB Need lots of help.

    S OJ and the Rams need plenty more help

    G Need more talent please

    FB Do the Rams have one?

    TE Klop is looking more like a flop

    C Maybe we will finally draft one this year?

    WR About the only position you can say the Rams have some young and veteran talent


    Based on NEEDS my question is what do the RAMS and LIONS not need???
    Last edited by Dominating D; -02-07-2009 at 01:14 AM.

  8. #23
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Crabtree is not Michael Jordan, nor is football the type of sport where one guy can dominate in a way Jordan dominated on the court.

  9. #24
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    I say give me a chance at MJ and I will roll the dice eveytime.
    Who exactly in this draft class are you comparing to Michael Jordan?

  10. #25
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    As someone else has already pointed out, there really isn't a chance for a single player in the NFL to have the impact of a Jordan.Maybe for a game or even a season but football dynasties are not built that way.I don't even believe that Jordan would have necessarily brought as much success to The Blazers or whoever it was that passed on him. No doubt he would have been a superstar but so was Barry Sanders,etc

    I can't believe it when people think that Vermeil, Faulk, and Warner were not all key to the GSOT. Would Holt or Pace have as many Pro Bowl awards or rings without them? History begs to differ.

    Of ccourse Crabtree could be a huge asset for the Rams in the short or longterm but he won't get a ring until the o-line is fixed, among other things.

    It doesn't necessarily start by taking an OT with our first pick. There are other possibilities about which I won't even pretend to have the info or acumen to weigh as accurately as DeSpags.I love to gas about it as much as the next fan but I sure as hell hope they are smarter than me.

    What I do notice is, when looking at the guy pro-Crabtree folks like to use as a comparison,Fitzgerald, is that almost all the big playmakers were on his team in 2005;Warner,Wilson,Dockett,Dansby,Berry,Boldin,and Fitzgerald.

    The O shot up the rankings from 27th in '04 to 8th in '05. Their D was already solid & crept into the top ten.

    The 2005 Cards finished 5-11. Boldin & Fitz both had over 1400 yds, Warner & McCown combined for over 4500 yds. What a freakin' tease for poor Cards fans.

    After that year they deteriorated in every category each year until '08.

    So... what changed? Well, the young stars matured & gelled.Warner reduced his mistakes & they tailored the O to his strengths. But the biggest difference in personnel was the ENTIRE OFFENSIVE LINE except for LG Wells.

    In '05 The Cards QBs were sacked 41 times. Warner was sacked 23 times in '08. I love Kurt but I don't believe it was all him.

    The Cards are a different team. Bulger is unlikely to ever play vs the blitz like Warner did this year. I like MB but we have to play to our strength in SJ and give Bulger a chance to keep things somewhat balanced.

    Do we need to invest in Crabtree to get a possession receiver in the middle of the field or an outlet in the flat to help MB beat the blitz? I don't think so.

    We need barrels of diesel , not a pint of rocket fuel.

    I would even argue that The House of Cards is one nasty hit on the QB away from collapsing.Building a power running team seems like a more sustainable recipe & closer to what we have,anyway.

    By the by,The Cards do have a mental toughness about them that we should aspire to & I think we can hope Spags will instill.

    Furthermore,we won't get the best , ie win consistently, out of the downfield weapons we do have like Avery,Burton,and McMichael plus, I'm sure, some new faces, until we fix the same problem that hindered the Cards in '05-'07.

    Geez, am I the only one old enough to remember that amazing game in the playoffs back in the 80s when Jordan scored 63 vs The Celtics? Larry Bird called him "God disguised as Michael Jordan."

    The Bulls, by the way, were swept by the Celtics.

    I bet Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen,Dennis Rodman, et al, remember.None of them were part of the Bulls that year.
    Last edited by Azul e Oro; -02-07-2009 at 05:06 AM.

  11. #26
    fearnobeer_99 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    minnasota, chicago

  12. #27
    Dominating D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    Crabtree is not Michael Jordan, nor is football the type of sport where one guy can dominate in a way Jordan dominated on the court.
    OK would these examples work for you?

    J. Brown
    J. Rice
    T. Brady
    D. Fouts
    L. Fitzgerald
    L. Taylor
    M. Faulk
    D. Marino
    K. Warner (a little Rams bias can't help it)
    R. Lewis

    Your right they can not dominate in the same way as basketball but most of these guys on this list have won a championships or at least had a chance to win a championship. They're also consider one of the best or the best at their postion. So if you can get a guy like Fitz or L. Taylor in this years draft you better pull the trigger

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Who exactly in this draft class are you comparing to Michael Jordan?
    I believe Crabtree and Curry have alot of talent and potential. If a team and coach are willing to develop a system that will enhance these players strength then I do believe these two players have the potential to dominate in this league. Maybe using Jordan was a bad example but how about Fitzgeral and Lawrence Taylor?????
    Last edited by Nick; -02-07-2009 at 06:16 PM.

  13. #28
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    There's one thing about Crabtree that scares me a little and it's not his speed or anything like that...he's only played wide receiver for 2 years...he was a quarterback in high school and was changed to wide receiver when he got to Texas Tech after the coaches saw him on the scout team...

  14. #29
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chase the Eagles Fan View Post
    There's one thing about Crabtree that scares me a little and it's not his speed or anything like that...he's only played wide receiver for 2 years...he was a quarterback in high school and was changed to wide receiver when he got to Texas Tech after the coaches saw him on the scout team...
    When you say scares you?

    Are you referring to how quickly he caught on to the new position at the college level.

    OR

    The lack of experience?

  15. #30
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Why Draft OT with 2nd pick? NO Jake LONG !

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Maybe using Jordan was a bad example but how about Fitzgeral and Lawrence Taylor?????
    Stick with Fitz if you have to. I'd leave LT out of the discussion. When you start throwing around comparisons to all-time greats like that, it tends to inflate expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chase the Eagles Fan View Post
    There's one thing about Crabtree that scares me a little and it's not his speed or anything like that...he's only played wide receiver for 2 years...he was a quarterback in high school and was changed to wide receiver when he got to Texas Tech after the coaches saw him on the scout team...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    When you say scares you?

    Are you referring to how quickly he caught on to the new position at the college level.

    OR

    The lack of experience?
    Exactly what I was thinking. He was a football in high school, redshirted his true freshman year, and then went on to become a two-time consensus All American and the first ever two-time Biletnikoff Award winner. He did this as a redshirt freshman and sophomore. The fact that he's only been at the position and is this good says to me that there's probably plenty of upside that has yet to be tapped.

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