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  1. #16
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    What is your point.
    I can't speak for him, but you were the one who posed the question as to whether any of the offensive tackles were worth the second overall pick. Clearly there are many out there that believe they should be in the conversation, based on the info he's provided. To this point, it seems he's provided more evidence to suggest they should be in the discussion than you have to show they shouldn't, or rather, that "none of the above" are worthy of the second overall pick.


  2. #17
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    No I seen them play...that's why I like them..you just don't want offensive tackle and that's fine...but to say that there isn't nobody worthy of the pick is ridiculous...I was just showing you how your the only one breathing that doesn't believe there is one "worthy" of the pick...

    It's ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I can't speak for him, but you were the one who posed the question as to whether any of the offensive tackles were worth the second overall pick. Clearly there are many out there that believe they should be in the conversation, based on the info he's provided. To this point, it seems he's provided more evidence to suggest they should be in the discussion than you have to show they shouldn't, or rather, that "none of the above" are worthy of the second overall pick.

    Thank you, I was in the shower and I posted this before I saw whatchu said.

    You said it better than I.
    Last edited by Nick; -02-04-2009 at 04:37 PM.

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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I can't speak for him, but you were the one who posed the question as to whether any of the offensive tackles were worth the second overall pick. Clearly there are many out there that believe they should be in the conversation, based on the info he's provided. To this point, it seems he's provided more evidence to suggest they should be in the discussion than you have to show they shouldn't, or rather, that "none of the above" are worthy of the second overall pick.
    With all those projections did it clarify that one player at TACKLE who is supported by the majority of these sites as the 2nd best player available? I'm sorry I must of missed it. WHich Tackle would that be?

    Please Nick tell us with all those projections from various sites which of these Tackles will be worth the 2nd overall pick or better yet worth mentioning?

    Will it be Smith(which one), Oher, or Monroe.

    These guys are no Pace, Thomas, or Long and I've said if the Rams are fortunate enough to trade down then I am good with any of these guys past the top 5 picks. However, I will argue that they're not worth the 2nd overall pick. IMO the Rams will be best served picking up a Tackle in the 2nd round and draft the best player available? QB, LB, WR, DE, I do not care this team needs as much talent as it can get in this years draft.

    Go Rams

  4. #19
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chase the Eagles Fan View Post
    your the only one breathing that doesn't believe there is one "worthy" of the pick...

    It's ridiculous.

    .
    OK which one is the best? I see way too many flaws in each of them. I guess I just believe if your the 2nd overall pick at Tackle your Game should have the talent that Pace, Thomas, or Long has.

    I just do not see that kind of talent in any of them. Yes, I do believe all of them will eventaully be starting Tackles in the NFL. However, I do not believe they have the talent that past Tackles who were drafted in the top of the 1st round.

    Whats ridiculous is not one of these TACKLES stand out yet you feel all of them are worth the 2nd overall pick. Let me jump on that wagon...

    The Rams need to add talent on the line but it does not mean it has to be done in this years 1st round....

  5. #20
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    OK which one is the best? I see way too many flaws in each of them. I guess I just believe if your the 2nd overall pick at Tackle your Game should have the talent that Pace, Thomas, or Long has.

    I just do not see that kind of talent in any of them. Yes, I do believe all of them will eventaully be starting Tackles in the NFL. However, I do not believe they have the talent that past Tackles who were drafted in the top of the 1st round.

    Whats ridiculous is not one of these TACKLES stand out yet you feel all of them are worth the 2nd overall pick. Let me jump on that wagon...

    The Rams need to add talent on the line but it does not mean it has to be done in this years 1st round....

    Well then fine...add a lesser talent in a later round. The Eagles could use some O-Line help and that would only make our chances of landing one of those guys even better...

    If you have a an obvious problem at a position and you know there four guys not only capable of starting at that particular position of need for the next 10 years but could be potential Pro Bowlers there then yeah, I think they are worthy of the pick.

    There's four guys that are all really good...and not everybody agrees who is the best...I think where a team values each of these guys will be determined by the respective blocking schemes they use on their line and who might be better fit to carry the job out....it might also have alot to do with a teams current situation on their line...

    Oher and Jason Smith are believed to be a little raw and might need time before they get right in there...so a team that doesn't have a starting left tackle now and wouldn't be able to afford these guys some time to get the position down and iron out some things in their game first then maybe that team won't be as inclined to select them...if a team needs a right tackle and not a left tackle...would have a lot to do with it, most of the time offensive line rankings are based off of their ability to play left tackle and you rarely see a right tackle get a whole lot of respect at this point in their careers becasue they're usually not as athletic as the left tackle guys...but right tackles are important too...

    A team that likes to run the ball alot might not want a guy like Jason Smith who's pass protection is his real strength...but a team that likes to pass the ball 45 times a game might NEED a guy like Smith...it's a case by case scenario here...

    the fact that these sites lump all these guys as just "tackles" is what makes their rankings so inconsitent...

    ALOT of mocks have either Andre Smith or Eugene Monroe going #1 overall...I don't see what makes the Rams too good to select one of these guys second overall...

  6. #21
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    With all those projections did it clarify that one player at TACKLE who is supported by the majority of these sites as the 2nd best player available? I'm sorry I must of missed it. WHich Tackle would that be?

    Please Nick tell us with all those projections from various sites which of these Tackles will be worth the 2nd overall pick or better yet worth mentioning?
    Now that I've sifted through the abundance of unnecessary sarcasm, let me try to provide you with an answer.

    None of the resources listed has one guy that they view as the second best player overall, whether it's a tackle or any other position. Obviously you'll use that to try and suggest none of them are worthy of being picked since there is not one consensus guy leading the pack. But my response would be that we don't have a consensus top-rated tackle in this class because there are four top guys this year who could conceivably make a case to be the first player selected at their position. By the end of the process, all four of them could potentially carry top ten grades.

    Some people mistake the lack of a consensus top tackle in early February as a sign of weakness; I consider it a sign of the strength of the class. I'm interested to see, when this process winds down, who is left standing atop the other top prospects here.

    But getting back to the sites, do you know what is supported by all of these resources? All of them have the Rams taking an OT with their first pick:

    NFL Draft Countdown: Monroe
    Football's Future: J. Smith
    New Era Scouting: Oher
    National Football Post: Monroe
    KFFL: A. Smith
    Walter Football: Monroe
    NFL Weekly: A. Smith
    PFW: Monroe

    Let's add a few more...

    NFL Draft Scout: Monroe
    Sporting News: Monroe
    Great Blue North: A. Smith
    Kiper: A. Smith
    McShay: J. Smith

    Now obviously I don't put my full faith in all of these sites, their evaluations, or their rankings. But the point I'm attempting to illustrate here is that there does seem to be a consensus, and that consensus is the Rams will at least be looking at an offensive tackle this April as an avenue to use their first round pick. And there are a couple of different names out there that have the talent to be considered.

    My personal view is that I think at least Monroe and A. Smith are on the list of options as much as any other player at another position. Jason Smith is the third guy, but the gap between him and Andre in the rankings, IMO, is not incredibly significant. I think Oher's inconsistency this year has probably played him out of the top spot.

    But you're going to have a tough time convincing people in the first week of February that none of these guys are worth the pick. My own personal view aside, we've now cited over a dozen different draft opinions, all of which view the Rams as taking an offensive tackle. Like it or not, that kind of consensus opinion goes a long way to suggest they're going to be in the discussion. And IMO, they deserve to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    These guys are no Pace, Thomas, or Long
    Huh? Putting Long among the ranks of Pace or Thomas? Let's not reinvent history; Long was not considered a Pace or a Thomas when he came out. There were more than a few people who were concerned about his ability to be a top level left tackle in the league, that questioned whether he'd be an All-Pro right tackle instead. Jake Long wasn't even the favorite to go first overall until late in the process. Now suddenly he's being hoisted up as the top standard that none of these guys meet? Interesting, to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    However, I will argue that they're not worth the 2nd overall pick.
    And I've yet to see you provide much of an explanation as to why that is, other than claiming they aren't Pace or Thomas or that there isn't one guy who is consistently viewed as the cream of the crop. IMO, both of those are rather poor reasons as to why no OT is worth considering or selecting at #2.

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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Now that I've sifted through the abundance of unnecessary sarcasm, let me try to provide you with an answer.

    None of the resources listed has one guy that they view as the second best player overall, whether it's a tackle or any other position. Obviously you'll use that to try and suggest none of them are worthy of being picked since there is not one consensus guy leading the pack. But my response would be that we don't have a consensus top-rated tackle in this class because there are four top guys this year who could conceivably make a case to be the first player selected at their position. By the end of the process, all four of them could potentially carry top ten grades.

    Some people mistake the lack of a consensus top tackle in early February as a sign of weakness; I consider it a sign of the strength of the class. I'm interested to see, when this process winds down, who is left standing atop the other top prospects here.

    But getting back to the sites, do you know what is supported by all of these resources? All of them have the Rams taking an OT with their first pick:

    NFL Draft Countdown: Monroe
    Football's Future: J. Smith
    New Era Scouting: Oher
    National Football Post: Monroe
    KFFL: A. Smith
    Walter Football: Monroe
    NFL Weekly: A. Smith
    PFW: Monroe

    Let's add a few more...

    NFL Draft Scout: Monroe
    Sporting News: Monroe
    Great Blue North: A. Smith
    Kiper: A. Smith
    McShay: J. Smith

    Now obviously I don't put my full faith in all of these sites, their evaluations, or their rankings. But the point I'm attempting to illustrate here is that there does seem to be a consensus, and that consensus is the Rams will at least be looking at an offensive tackle this April as an avenue to use their first round pick. And there are a couple of different names out there that have the talent to be considered.

    My personal view is that I think at least Monroe and A. Smith are on the list of options as much as any other player at another position. Jason Smith is the third guy, but the gap between him and Andre in the rankings, IMO, is not incredibly significant. I think Oher's inconsistency this year has probably played him out of the top spot.

    But you're going to have a tough time convincing people in the first week of February that none of these guys are worth the pick. My own personal view aside, we've now cited over a dozen different draft opinions, all of which view the Rams as taking an offensive tackle. Like it or not, that kind of consensus opinion goes a long way to suggest they're going to be in the discussion. And IMO, they deserve to be.



    Huh? Putting Long among the ranks of Pace or Thomas? Let's not reinvent history; Long was not considered a Pace or a Thomas when he came out. There were more than a few people who were concerned about his ability to be a top level left tackle in the league, that questioned whether he'd be an All-Pro right tackle instead. Jake Long wasn't even the favorite to go first overall until late in the process. Now suddenly he's being hoisted up as the top standard that none of these guys meet? Interesting, to say the least.



    And I've yet to see you provide much of an explanation as to why that is, other than claiming they aren't Pace or Thomas or that there isn't one guy who is consistently viewed as the cream of the crop. IMO, both of those are rather poor reasons as to why no OT is worth considering or selecting at #2.
    OK NIck-- you supported your argument well but I just do not see the talent in these guys the way you do?

    Here is a fair question if Pace was coming out of college this year compared to these other OT where would you rank him?

    I never said any of these OT did not have talent I just believe they have too many flaws to be selected the 2nd overall pick. Just IMO and yes I can break down each of these tackles and do the research for each and give you the strength and weakness for each but it would be a waste of my time and yours. You will believe what you want to believe and I will believe that although 2009 has a talented pool of TACKLES none are worth the 2nd overall pick.

  8. #23
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Here is a fair question if Pace was coming out of college this year compared to these other OT where would you rank him?
    I would have to assume he'd be at the top of the list, simply because he's probably one of the best offensive tackles to ever play at the collegiate level. But I was 14 when Pace came out so I don't exactly have a great recollection of that NFL offseason, lol.

    Also, I'd have to assume that if Pace were a prospect today, he'd likely receive criticism for not being a dominant run blocker and for not having that killer instinct or nasty demeanor that many love in their linemen. He certainly wouldn't be held up as a flawless prospect; no one is.

    The thing is, though, Pace is not the sole standard for taking an offensive tackle high in the draft. The Dolphins proved that last year by taking Jake Long, who certainly was not viewed as a Pace-like clone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    I never said any of these OT did not have talent I just believe they have too many flaws to be selected the 2nd overall pick. Just IMO
    If that's your opinion, that's fine. Just keep an eye out when phrasing it. Because when you say things like, "So, which of the three is worth the 2nd overall pick? Let me give you a hint NONE OF THE ABOVE....." it doesn't sound like you're expressing an opinion anymore. It sounds as if you're trying to claim that as fact.

  9. #24
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post

    If that's your opinion, that's fine. Just keep an eye out when phrasing it. Because when you say things like, "So, which of the three is worth the 2nd overall pick? Let me give you a hint NONE OF THE ABOVE....." it doesn't sound like you're expressing an opinion anymore. It sounds as if you're trying to claim that as fact.
    Apparently I am not alone.

    From Walter Football

    St. Louis Rams: Michael Crabtree, WR, Texas Tech
    FEB. 3 UPDATE: I've seen some 2009 NFL Mock Drafts project Aaron Curry here. Hey, anything can happen on Draft Day.

    Some argue that Steve Spagnuolo will want to draft defense. The belief that coaches draft personnel early to fit their scheme is a myth; in fact, it's the complete opposite. Marvin Lewis took a quarterback with his first selection in Cincinnati. As did Mike Nolan in San Francisco. Atlanta's Mike Smith did the same. Tony Dungy and Bill Polian in Indianapolis drafted offense early and often. Coaches are cocky and often believe that "their side fo the ball" can thrive with the existing players and late-round choices.

    Meanwhile, it's widely known that the NFL is a copycat league. When you look at what Larry Fitzgerald and Santonio Holmes did for their respective teams in the Doggone Playoff, you have to think that St. Louis' ownership wants the "next Fitzgerald." As I mentioned in my last update (below), Crabtree is the best prospect in this class. I don't see why the Rams would take a lesser prospect at tackle in favor of him. Just as many wideouts as offensive tackles were drafted in the top three since 1998 (source: link above), so I don't see how anyone can say that the tackle position is CONSIDERED more valuable.

    JAN. 28 UPDATE: This pick could be Eugene Monroe. But I'd like to make the case for Michael Crabtree.

    There is no consensus No. 1 tackle. A few months ago, Michael Oher was the guy. Questions arose about his consistency in pass blocking, and he fell off. Next, Andre Smith was the top tackle. When concerns about his weight and pass blocking came to light, his stock dropped as well. Now, despite not doing anything and sitting out the Senior Bowl, Monroe has somehow elevated up to No. 2 overall status? Sounds a bit fishy to me. For all we know, people might starting finding things wrong with him pretty soon. Jason Smith, Mike Mayock's top-rated tackle, could then move into this slot.

    I don't think there is any offensive tackle in this class worthy of being drafted second overall. If any of these four were in the 2008 NFL Draft class, would they be behind Jake Long and Ryan Clady? Maybe.

    Michael Crabtree is the top prospect in this class. Not only is he a dynamic and physically gifted receiver, he also fills a need.

    Now, I know the Rams are in more of a dire need of an upgrade at tackle, but they really could use a No. 1 receiver. Torry Holt's play really fell off in 2008, and there's a very good chance the regressing former Pro Bowler, who turns 33 in June, could be cut or traded. Donnie Avery had a very good rookie season, but at 5-11, 190, he can't be the top wideout.

    Furthermore, financial concerns also have to be an issue. Our economy is worse than it's been in about three-quarters of a century. NFL tickets are being slashed by at least 10 percent. The Rams, who are still relatively new to St. Louis, need a hot ticket.

    That would be Crabtree. He'd fill the seats. He would sell jerseys much better than any offensive lineman. And he would bring some excitement to a city that just watched its football team finish a depressing 2-14.

  10. #25
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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    Apparently I am not alone.
    How does that change my point that you just quoted, about expressing your opinion as an opinion rather than fact?

    Regardless, even that site on their January 28th update said the pick could be Monroe, so again we're back to what I saying - he's worthy of being in the conversation for the second overall pick.

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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    How does that change my point that you just quoted, about expressing your opinion as an opinion rather than fact?

    Regardless, even that site on their January 28th update said the pick could be Monroe, so again we're back to what I saying - he's worthy of being in the conversation for the second overall pick.
    I just thought it was a worthy opinion LOL. Only because it shared mine.

    I'm not sure if Monroe is worthy of the conversation but it's obvious he has been.

    GO RAMS

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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post

    Furthermore, financial concerns also have to be an issue. Our economy is worse than it's been in about three-quarters of a century. NFL tickets are being slashed by at least 10 percent. The Rams, who are still relatively new to St. Louis, need a hot ticket.

    That would be Crabtree. He'd fill the seats. He would sell jerseys much better than any offensive lineman. And he would bring some excitement to a city that just watched its football team finish a depressing 2-14.
    This writer is clearly not familiar with the Rams' business practices under the Rosenblooms. They've never tried to set down roots outside of the St. Louis CSA, and therefore the allure of "jersey sales" or "hot tickets" is irrelevant to the Rosenblooms.

  13. #28
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    Re: Why take an OT early?


    For the ram fans that want one of the four or five top rated OT,s TRADE DOWN and still get your OT. Eugene Monroe ,Jason Smith, Andre Smith, and Michael Oher are all good and nobody can decide who is best. I think one of those four will still be there around the 6th through 10th pick.

    If the rams don't ask for the world the trade will get done. Get two 2nd round choices sounds good to me . Maybe a A. Mack or M. Unger Centers.

    And if we lose Holt because he won't restructure his Contract tou can pick up a Top WR in round 2.

    But remember defence builds Championships.

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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shan the Ram Man View Post

    For the ram fans that want one of the four or five top rated OT,s TRADE DOWN and still get your OT. Eugene Monroe ,Jason Smith, Andre Smith, and Michael Oher are all good and nobody can decide who is best. I think one of those four will still be there around the 6th through 10th pick.

    If the rams don't ask for the world the trade will get done. Get two 2nd round choices sounds good to me . Maybe a A. Mack or M. Unger Centers.

    And if we lose Holt because he won't restructure his Contract tou can pick up a Top WR in round 2.

    But remember defence builds Championships.
    I'm actually grown tired of this phrase. You have to find someone willing to move up to make the trade.

    The Rams have to get fair value to trade down or it will look bad on the organization.

    IMHO the trade down most likely will not happen just like last year....

    Go Rams

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    Re: Why take an OT early?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    I'm actually grown tired of this phrase. You have to find someone willing to move up to make the trade.

    The Rams have to get fair value to trade down or it will look bad on the organization.

    IMHO the trade down most likely will not happen just like last year....

    Go Rams
    Yeah that's what the Dolphins tried to do last year...nobody wanted to bite...so the Rams selected Jake Long and imperfect, non-Orlando Pace-ish left tackle...a year later NFL fans across the nation regard him as the golden standard of left tackle prospects...

    So if the Rams try to trade down, can't find any suitors and end up selecting one of the best offensive tackles in the draft (for conversation's sake, let's say it's..) Eugene Monroe...an imperfect, non-Orlando Pace-ish left tackle out of Virginia...next year...someone will say, "We shouldn't draft an offensive lineman with the second overall pick. There is not one Orlando Pace, Joe Thomas, Jake Long or Eugene Monroe prospect worthy of that high of a pick this year".

    The truth is...no one wants to select an offensive lineman in the first round of the draft...really even if you KNOW your team desperately needs one...it's not fun and you don't see the impact he has on the game because he's not carrying the football or throwing it or catching it...it's OK not to want one...but sometimes you just have to look at what's best for the football team...

    I'm not saying tackle is the absolute right thing for the Rams...but as Nick has said, it deserves to be mentioned. It could be Curry or Crabtree or Raji or Matt Stafford or Quinn Johnson for all we know..part of the draft decisions has to do with your future plans and that is something we don't know....but speaking of...let's stir the pot up a bit
    Last edited by Nick; -02-08-2009 at 11:31 PM. Reason: NO LINKS

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