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  #16 (permalink)  
Old -22-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

An impressive collection of evidence RT. It in no way changes my view of what happened on that awful day.

It's possible to rebut virtually everything you have written but a more pertinent point is that never before in history has something of this nature been successfully perpetrated.

Aircraft do not vaporise after a crash.

The automated air defence system doesn't quite work like that not the least of which is it's not wholly automated nature.

The WTC was a 'fixed' target a president and his motorcade are not, notwithstanding the secrecy surrounding his diary.

The steel in the WTC didn't liquefy either it's strength was altered by the extreme nature of the heat it was exposed to and the trusses fractured and twisted, they did not liquefy.

There's an excellent BBC documentary on this question that I urge you to see that explains the pancaking extremely effectively.

The American air traffic control and security system had, and still has, horrendous flaws that expose the american public to terrible dangers. As I stated there is no such thing as 'Fortress America' or fortress anywhere else for that matter.

It was a terrible awful day, a trauma for everyone who saw it. Please don't ask me to believe that elected officials of the federal government along with hundreds of air traffic control officers, hundreds of law enforcement and intelligence operatives, not to mention serving officers in the US air force purposely murdered thousands of their own countrymen just so they could go to afgahistan to fight the taliban and then invade Iraq.

Just doesn't make sense.
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Old -22-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

9/11 Terror

Muslims Suspend Laws of Physics!
by J. McMichael
jmcm5@lycos.com


I tried to be patriotic.
I tried to believe. I watched those quarter mile high buildings fall through their jaw-dropping catastrophes over and over again. I listened to the announcer and the experts explain what had happened. And I worked at my pitiful lack of faith, pounding my skull with the remote control and staring at the flickering images on the TV screen.

But poor mental peasant that I am, I could not escape the teachings of my forefathers. I fear I am trapped in my time, walled off from further scientific understanding by my inability to abandon the Second Millennium mindset.

But enough of myself. Let us move on to the Science and Technology of the 21st Century. Those of you who cannot believe should learn the official truth by rote and perhaps you will be able to hide your ignorance.

Here are the bare bones of the WTC incident:

North tower struck 8:45 a.m. from the north at about the 93rd floor, collapsed about 10:29 a.m.
South tower struck 9:03 a.m. from the south at about the 80th floor, collapsed about 9:50 a.m.;




North tower struck 8:45 a.m. from the north at about the 93rd floor South tower struck 9:03 a.m. from the south at about the 80th floor

Using jet fuel to melt steel is an amazing discovery, really. It is also amazing that until now, no one had been able to get it to work, and that proves the terrorists were not stupid people. Ironworkers fool with acetylene torches, bottled oxygen, electric arcs from generators, electric furnaces, and other elaborate tricks, but what did these brilliant terrorists use? Jet fuel, costing maybe 80 cents a gallon on the open market.

Let us consider: One plane full of jet fuel hit the north tower at 8:45 a.m., and the fuel fire burned for a while with bright flames and black smoke. We can see pictures of white smoke and flames shooting from the windows.

Then by 9:03 a.m. (which time was marked by the second plane's collision with the south tower), the flame was mostly gone and only black smoke continued to pour from the building. To my simple mind, that would indicate that the first fire had died down, but something was still burning inefficiently, leaving soot (carbon) in the smoke. A fire with sooty smoke is either low temperature or starved for oxygen -- or both.


But by 10:29 a.m., the fire in north tower had accomplished the feat that I find so amazing: It melted the steel supports in the building, causing a chain reaction within the structure that brought the building to the ground.

And with less fuel to feed the fire, the south tower collapsed only 47 minutes after the plane collision, again with complete destruction. This is only half the time it took to destroy the north tower.

I try not to think about that. I try not to think about a petroleum fire burning for 104 minutes, just getting hotter and hotter until it reached 1538 degrees Celsius (2800 Fahrenheit) and melted the steel
I try not to wonder how the fire reached temperatures that only bottled oxygen or forced air can produce.

And I try not to think about all the steel that was in that building -- 200,000 tons of it

I try to forget that heating steel is like pouring syrup onto a plate: you can't get it to stack up. The heat just flows out to the colder parts of the steel, cooling off the part you are trying to warm up. If you pour it on hard enough and fast enough, you can get the syrup to stack up a little bit. And with very high heat brought on very fast, you can heat up one part of a steel object, but the heat will quickly spread out and the hot part will cool off soon after you stop.

Am I to believe that the fire burned for 104 minutes in the north tower, gradually heating the 200,000 tons of steel supports like a blacksmith's forge, with the heat flowing throughout the skeleton of the tower? If the collapse was due to heated steel, the experts should be able to tell us how many thousands of tons of steel were heated to melting temperature in 104 minutes and how much fuel would be required to produce that much heat. Can a single Boeing 767 carry that much fuel?

Thankfully, I found this note on the BBC web page ( "Fire reaches 800 [degrees] C -- hot enough to melt steel floor supports."

That is one of the things I warned you about: In the 20th Century, steel melted at 1535 degrees Celsius (2795 F), (see but in the 21st Century, it melts at 800 degrees C (1472 F).

This might be explained as a reporter's mistake -- 800 to 900 C is the temperature for forging wrought iron. As soft as wrought iron is, of course, it would never be used for structural steel in a landmark skyscraper.

But then lower down, the BBC page repeats the 800 C number in bold, and the article emphasizes that the information comes from Chris Wise, "Structural Engineer." Would this professional individual permit himself to be misquoted in a global publication?

Eduardo Kausel, an M.I.T. professor of civil and environmental engineering, spoke as follows to a panel of Boston area civil and structural engineers: "I believe that the intense heat softened or melted the structural elements -- floor trusses and columns -- so that they became like chewing gum, and that was enough to trigger the collapse." Kausel is apparently satisfied that a kerosene fire could melt steel -- though he does not venture a specific temperature for the fire.

I feel it coming on again -- that horrible cynicism that causes me to doubt the word of the major anchor-persons. Please just think of this essay as a plea for help, and do NOT let it interfere with your own righteous faith. The collapse of America's faith in its leaders must not become another casualty on America's skyline.

In my diseased mind, I think of the floors of each tower like a stack of LP (33-1/3 RPM) records, except that the floors were square instead of circular. They were stacked around a central spindle that consisted of multiple steel columns interspersed with dozens of elevator shafts



A "beam" is always horizontal, "columns" are vertical. The vertical steel supports in the core were columns.
The central columns occupied about 25% of the floor area, not 10% as is shown on the left.
The central columns were not encased in a single block of concrete, but interspersed with elevator shafts






The outside shape of the towers was almost square, but the inner core was more rectangular. Pictures from the early phases of construction photos show how the rectangular inner cores were oriented in the finished buildings Note that the north tower core was aligned east-west, and the south tower core was aligned north-south.


This drawing shows the two WTC towers (black) and the paths of the attacking aircraft (red). Within the profile of each tower, the shape of the central core is shown by the green rectangle. WTC buildings 1 through 6 are numbered, WTC 7, north of 6, is not shown.

With the central core bearing the weight of the building, the platters were tied together and stabilized by another set of steel columns at the outside rim, closely spaced and completely surrounding the structure. This resulting structure was so stable that the top of the towers swayed only three feet in a high wind. The architects called it a "tube-within-a-tube design."

The TV experts told us that the joints between the floors and central columns melted (or the floor trusses, or the central columns, or the exterior columns, depending on the expert) and this caused the floor to collapse and fall onto the one below. This overloaded the lower floor, and the two of them fell onto the floor below, and so on like dominos

Back in the early 1970s when the World Trade Towers were built, the WTC was the tallest building that had ever been built in the history of the world. If we consider the architectural engineers, suppliers, builders, and city inspectors on the job, we can imagine they would be very careful to overbuild every aspect. If one bolt was calculated to serve, you can bet that three or four were used. If there was any doubt about the quality of a girder or steel beam, you can be sure it was rejected. After all, any failures would attract the attention of half the civilized world, and no corporation wants a reputation for that kind of stupidity -- particularly if there are casualties.

I do not know the exact specifications for the WTC, but I know in many trades (and some I've worked), a structural member must be physically capable of three times the maximum load that will ever be required of it (BreakingStrength = 3 x WorkingStrength).


According to Engineering and Technical Handbook by McNeese and Hoag, Prentice Hall, 3rd printing, September 1959: page 47 (Table) Safety Factors of Various Materials, the mandatory safety factor for structural steel is 600%. That is, a steel structure may be rated for a load of only one sixth the actual theoretical limit.

Given that none of those floors was holding a grand piano sale or an elephant convention that day, it is unlikely that any of them were loaded to the maximum. Thus, any of the floors should have been capable of supporting more than its own weight plus the two floors above it. I suspect the WTC was engineered for safer margins than the average railroad bridge, and the actual load on each floor was less than 1/6 the BreakingStrength. The platters were constructed of webs of steel trusses. Radial trusses ran from the perimeter of the floor to the central columns, and concentric rings of trusses connected the radial trusses, forming a pattern like a spider web Where the radial trusses connected with the central columns, I imagine the joints looked like the big bolted flanges where girders meet on a bridge -- inches thick bolts tying the beams into the columns.

In order to weaken those joints, a fire would have to heat the bolts or the flanges to the point where the bolts fell apart or tore through the steel. But here is another thing that gives me problems -- all the joints between the platter and the central columns would have to be heated at the same rate in order to collapse at the same time -- and at the same rate as the joints with the outer columns on all sides -- else one side of the platter would fall, damaging the floor below and making obvious distortions in the skin of the building, or throwing the top of the tower off balance and to one side.

But there were no irregularities in the fall of those buildings. They fell almost as perfectly as a deck of cards in the hands of a magician doing an aerial shuffle.


Images cached from PsyOpNews:
The Splitsecond Error

This is particularly worrisome since the first plane struck one side of the north tower, causing (you would think) a weakening on that side where the exterior columns were struck, and a more intense fire on that side than on the other side. And the second plane struck near the corner of the south tower at an angle that caused much of the fuel to spew out the windows on the adjacent side

Yet the south tower also collapsed in perfect symmetry, spewing dust in all directions like a Fourth of July sparkler burning to the ground

This symmetry of descent is even more remarkable in the south tower because in the first moments of the collapse, the top 20 floors of the south tower tilted over to the south
Whatever irregularities caused the top of the tower to tilt, subsequent pictures show the tower falling mostly within its own footprint. There are no reports of this cube of concrete and steel from the upper floors (measuring 200 ft. wide, 200 ft. deep, and 250 ft high) falling a 1000 feet onto the buildings below.

Implosion expert Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. of Phoenix, MD, was also misled by the picture. Having observed the collapses on television news, Loizeaux said the 1,362-ft-tall south tower failed much as one would fell a tree

I have recently seen a videotape rerun of the south tower falling. In that take, the upper floors descend as a complete unit, tilted over as shown on the BBC page, sliding down behind the intervening buildings like a piece of stage scenery.

That scene is the most puzzling of all. Since the upper floors were not collapsed (the connection between the center columns and the platters were intact), this assembly would present itself to the lower floors as a block of platters WITHOUT a central hole. How then would a platter without a hole slide down the spindle with the other platters? Where would the central columns go if they could not penetrate the upper floors as the platters fell?

If the fire melted the floor joints so that the collapse began from the 60th floor downward, the upper floors would be left hanging in the air, supported only by the central columns. This situation would soon become unstable and the top 30 floors would topple over (to use Loizeaux's image) much like felling the top 600 ft. from a 1,300 ft. tree.

This model would also hold for the north tower. According to Chris Wise's "domino" doctrine, the collapse began only at the floor with the fire, not at the penthouse. How was it that the upper floors simply disappeared instead of crashing to the earth as a block of thousands of tons of concrete and steel?

In trying to reconstruct and understand this event, we need to know whether the scenes we are watching are edited or simply shown raw as they were recorded.

But let us return our attention to the fire. Liquid fuel does not burn hot for long. Liquid fuel evaporates (or boils) as it burns, and the vapor burns as it boils off. If the ambient temperature passes the boiling point of the fuel and oxygen is plentiful, the process builds to an explosion that consumes the fuel.

Jet fuel (refined kerosene) boils at temperatures above 160 degrees Celsius (350 F) and the vapor flashes into flame at 41 degrees Celsius (106 F). In an environment of 1500 degrees F, jet fuel spread thinly on walls, floor, and ceiling would boil off very quickly. If there were sufficient oxygen, it would burn; otherwise it would disperse out the open windows and flame when it met oxygen in the open air -- as was likely happening in the pictures that showed flames shooting from the windows. Some New Yorkers miles distant claimed they smelled the fuel, which would indicate fuel vapors were escaping without being burned.

Note that jet fuel burning outside the building would heat the outside columns, but would not heat the central load-bearing columns significantly. Following this reasoning, the jet fuel fire does not adequately explain the failure of the central columns.

Whether the fuel burned gradually at a temperature below the boiling point of jet fuel (360 C), or burned rapidly above the boiling point of jet fuel, in neither case would an office building full of spilled jet fuel sustain a fire at 815 degrees C (1500 F) long enough to melt 200,000 tons of steel. And certainly, the carpets, wallpaper, filing cabinets, occasional desks -- nothing else in that office was present in sufficient quantity to produce that temperature.

The WTC was not a lumber yard or a chemical plant. What was burning?

OK, since it was mentioned, I am also upset with the quantity of concrete dust. No concrete that I have ever known pulverizes like that. It is unnerving. My experience with concrete has shown that it will crumble under stress, but rarely does it just give up the ghost and turn to powder. But look at the pictures -- it is truly a fine dust in great billowing clouds spewing a hundred feet from the collapsing tower.



The University of Sydney -- Department of Civil Engineering

And the people on the ground see little more than an opaque wall of dust -- with inches of dust filling the streets and the lungs afterward.

What has happened here?



I need a faith booster shot. I would like to find a picture of all those platters piled up on the ground, just as they fell -- has anyone seen a picture like that? I am told it was cumulative weight of those platters falling on each other that caused the collapse, but I don't see the platters piled up like flapjacks on the ground floor.





Instead, the satellite pictures show the WTC ruins like an ash pit .

I am told by a friend that a man named Dr. Robert Schuller was on television telling about his trip to the ruins. He announced in the interview that there was not a single block of concrete in that rubble. From the original 425,000 cubic yards of concrete that went into the building, all was dust. How did that happen?

I have just one other point I need help with -- the steel columns in the center. When the platters fell, those quarter-mile high central steel columns (at least from the ground to the fire) should have been left standing naked and unsupported in the air, and then they should have fallen intact or in sections to the ground below, clobbering buildings hundreds of feet from the WTC site like giant trees falling in the forest. But I haven't seen any pictures showing those columns standing, falling, or lying on the ground. Nor have I heard of damage caused by them.

Now I know those terrorists must have been much better at these things than I am. I would take one look at their kamikaze plans with commercial jets and I would reject it as -- spectacular maybe, but not significantly damaging. The WTC was not even a strategic military target.

But if I were given the assignment of a terrorist hijacker, I would try to hit the towers low in the supports to knock the towers down, maybe trapping the workers with the fire and burning the towers from the ground up, just as the people in the top stories were trapped. Even the Japanese kamikaze pilots aimed for the water line.

But you see, those terrorists were so sure the building would magically collapse that way, the pilot who hit the north tower chose a spot just 20 floors from the top

And the kamikaze for south tower was only slightly lower -- despite a relatively open skyline down to 25 or 30 stories

The terrorists apparently predicted the whole scenario -- the fuel fire, the slow weakening of the structure, and the horrific collapse of the building -- phenomena that the architects and the NY civil engineering approval committees never dreamed of.

Even as you righteously hate those men, you have to admire them for their genius.

Few officials or engineers have been surprised by this turn of events -- apparently everyone certified it for airplane collisions, but almost no one was surprised when both collisions caused utter catastrophes in both towers. In fact, their stutters and mumbles and circumlocutions would make a politician blush:

"Eventually, the loss of strength and stiffness of the materials resulting from the fire, combined with the initial impact damage, would have caused a failure of the truss system supporting a floor, or the remaining perimeter columns, or even the internal core, or some combination."
In a hundred years of tall city buildings, this kind of collapse has never happened before. Never. It was not predicted by any of the experts involved when the WTC towers were built. But now that it has happened, everybody understands it perfectly normal and nobody is surprised.

Is this civil engineering in the Third Millennium -- a galloping case of perfect hindsight?

Scientific American, prestigious journal of cutting edge science, remarked:

Despite the expert panel's preliminary musings on the failure mechanisms responsible for the twin towers' fall, the definitive cause has yet to be determined. Reportedly, the National Science Foundation has funded eight research projects to probe the WTC catastrophe. The American Society of Civil Engineers is sponsoring several studies of the site. Meanwhile the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Structural Engineers has established an investigative team to analyze the disaster and learn from the failure
Amazing: At least ten independent professional studies for an incident every professional seems already to understand. Notwithstanding the apparent lack of answers and all these studies not yet done, the very next paragraph is headed, "How the Towers Fell," and the reader is treated to a shotgun assortment of speculations, each delivered with the beard-stroking and pipe-puffing certainty that no explanation would ever be seriously challenged.

I have found only one expert candidly admitting his surprise. This was Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. of Phoenix, MD:

Observing the collapses on television news, Loizeaux says the 1,362-ft-tall south tower, which was hit at about the 60th floor, failed much as one would like (sic) fell a tree. That is what was expected, says Loizeaux. But the 1,368-ft-tall north tower, similarly hit but at about the 90th floor, "telescoped," says Loizeaux. It failed vertically, he adds, rather than falling over. "I don't have a clue," says Loizeaux, regarding the cause of the telescoping.
There was one highly qualified engineer in New Mexico who thought the collapse could only happen with the help of demolition explosives, and he was foolish enough to make the statement publicly.

Romero is a former director of the Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center at Tech, which studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.
Romero said he based his opinion on video aired on national television broadcasts.

Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures.

"It would be difficult for something from the plane to trigger an event like that," Romero said in a phone interview from Washington, D.C.

Romero said he and another Tech administrator were on a Washington-area subway when an airplane struck the Pentagon.

He said he and Denny Peterson, vice president for administration and finance, were en route to an office building near the Pentagon to discuss defense-funded research programs at Tech.

If explosions did cause the towers to collapse, the detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive, he said.

"It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.

The explosives likely would have been put in more than two points in each of the towers, he said.


But Romero recanted ten days later and admitted the whole thing was perfectly natural and unsurprising. I wonder what happened in those ten days to make him so smart on the subject so quickly. The retraction is now displayed above the original on the Albuquerque Journal web page.

And then, as though demonstrating how normal this "building collapsing" phenomenon is, WTC buildings Six and Seven "collapsed," too:

Other buildings -- including the 47-story Salomon Brothers building [WTC 7] -- caved in later, weakened by the earlier collapses, and more nearby buildings may still fall, say engineers.

It seems no building in the area, regardless of design, is immune to galloping WTC collapse-itis. It never happened in the 20th Century, but welcome to the physical universe laws of the Third Millennium.

Pardon me, but this recitation has not given me the relief I hoped for. I must get back to work.

I believe in the President, the Flag, and the Statue of Liberty. I believe in the honesty of the FBI and the humility of military men. I believe in the network news anchor-persons, who strive to learn the truth, to know the truth, and to tell the truth to America.

And I believe all Americans are so well educated in the basic physics discussed above, they would rise up in fury if someone tried to pull a cheap Hollywood trick on them.

Hand me that remote, will you?
  #18 (permalink)  
Old -22-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

Here's a link to a story about a gasoline-fueled bomber hitting the Empire State Building in the Summer of 1945:

http://www.cosmik.com/aa-april02/dj82.html

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old -22-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

Evidently the iranians can build 10 story steel framed buildings better then we can because a c130 crashed into an apartment building gutting the entire building however the skeleton of the building remained and not one block of concrete was pulverized into dust.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...66.stm#graphic

Pictures and video
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Old -22-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

But not one of these august bodies said "...our government blew up these buildings....".

Who said that then?
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

Ramtime, why do you have to do this to us? You drive me nuts making me think outside the box.

I will admit that I did not know that a third building collapsed on 9/11. I will also admit that I had trouble comprehending the towers collapsing as quickly and as cleanly as they did. The collapses do not seem to make sense in the world of physics. They claimed jet fuel burned hot enough to weaken the steel structure and cause its collapse and I bought in to that. The explanation seemed reasonable enough in the heat of the moment. Now it sticks out as strange.

Has anyone recreated the situation to see what burning jet fuel does to a steal and concrete building?

Bringing Pat Tillman's death into this theory only adds confusion. I can't believe that he had any insider knowledge that would make him a target. There may be a cover up related to events surrounding his death, but that is a separate story in itself and I don't think you should combine the two together.

I don't really know what to do with this information or these theories. I am sure there are many things that happen that are concealed, but this one is hard to fathom since it involves death of innocent people, a large amount of people that would have had to been involved to pull this off, and a solid motive that is not evident to me.
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Old -23-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

Quote:
Ramtime, why do you have to do this to us? You drive me nuts making me think outside the box.
This is good because the whole point is to get people to look at the evidence that the media will not show you and please tell me if you come up with something, anything logical on either side of the issue.

Below you mention that you cannot fathom killing innocent people.
If you can't fathom killing innocent people look at what the Administration did right after 911.
The Bush White House intervened in the weeks following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks to suppress warnings by the Environmental Protection Agency of health hazards associated with the toxic cloud of dust and debris created by the collapse of the World Trade Center, according to a report issued by the agency’s inspector general.
The highly critical 165-page report indicates that agency officials were pressured to issue misleading assurances that the air quality in New York City was safe, in part because of White House concerns that Wall Street be speedily reopened for financial trading.
These lies helped create the conditions in which thousands of “Ground Zero” rescue workers contracted serious illnesses, and many residents of lower Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn, as well as infants born after the September 11 disaster, have had their health placed at risk. Hundreds of fire fighters can no longer work. To illustrate the seriousness of the health risks 14 rescue dogs have died due to the dust clouds.

Another thing I should point out is that not all 911 truth movement people believe that Bush orchestrated the attacks. The American people fall in or close to one of 4 major categories.
1. The U.S. was the innocent victim of terrorists with box cutters brought on by Muslims at the behest of Osama bin Laden and in the name of Ala.
2. The Administration did not know about the attacks however they have used the attacks to gain a political strangle hold on its own citizens by legislating away their freedoms.
3. The Administration knew the attacks were coming but did nothing to stop them to further their own political agenda.
4. The Administration orchestrated the attacks in a continuing effort of U.S. global domination at the time of peak oil.

Unfortunately if you accept the 2nd or 3rd belief your own investigation will quickly lead you into the 4th belief due to the infinite amount of evidence that reeks of cover-up and corruption.


Quote:
I will admit that I did not know that a third building collapsed on 9/11.
This is because it was shown once on the day of the events and never again in the main stream media. FEMA's report was inconclusive. They could not explain how a 47 story building collapsed into its own footprint yet they were not allowed to consider controlled demolition. The 911 commission did come up with what they called a low probability conclusion it is absurd even by their own admission. The media simply said "Because of the destruction earlier today WTC 7 collapsed 8 hours after the towers." Why would the 911 commission even bother to come up with a story that blames fire for the collapse when the owner of the WTC said that the fire department took it down with controlled demolition? Since the collapse of the building had all the characteristics of controlled demolition why were they not allowed to investigate controlled demolition? Like each and every event that happened on 911 it just doesn't make sense.

Quote:
I will also admit that I had trouble comprehending the towers collapsing as quickly and as cleanly as they did.
The collapses do not seem to make sense in the world of physics. They claimed jet fuel burned hot enough to weaken the steel structure and cause its collapse and I bought in to that. The explanation seemed reasonable enough in the heat of the moment. Now it sticks out as strange.
The 911 commission report does NOT claim that jet fuel burned hot enough to cause the trusses to weaken that would have been a huge mistake and they know this. Instead what they claim is the jet fuel acted as a match igniting the entire floor at once which is true in the case of the North Tower however the fire was isolated to a few small pockets in a short period of time. A fire fighter reached the 78th floor of the north tower and he was not overly concerned about the fire. In fact he said he could knock it down with two lines. There is also a picture of a lady standing in the burnt black hole where the airplane entered the building and she is looking down. Question: if the impact floors were burning at 800 degrees evenly throughout the floor, how did this lady walk through them and why are the holes so black. Why did a fire fighter say he could knock it down with just two lines? Since a Steel Framed Building had never before collapsed due to fire how did they know to warn Mayor Giuliani that the Tower was about ready to collapse? How were they able to warn firefighters that building 7 was going to collapse in 15 minutes? You need to remember that Jet fuel is nothing except refined kerosene. If Jet fuel could melt the steel in those buildings then it would also be able to melt many parts of a Boeing 757 engine. People hear "Jet Fuel" and they assume that it burns hotter then any other hydrocarbon fuel. Also liquid fueled fires do not last long especially when they are starved for oxygen which was evident by the black smoke. Have you ever poured lighter fluid onto coals in a barbeque? The fire burns hot for a very short period of time and quickly dies down. Jet fuel or any other petroleum based fire behaves in the same manner. Do we have any fire fighter here that will confirm this? Underwriters laboratory released a scathing letter to the 911 commission saying that the American people should be extremely concerned that fire (especially the small fires in the towers and building 7 could cause the steel to loose its strength. They also stated that it should be of great concern to the American people that the steel in those buildings was heated to temperatures that would slice the steel and in fact the temperatures had to reach 5000 degrees throughout the towers structure in order to slice it up into convenient 30 foot sections ready to load onto trucks. The company that did the cleanup "Controlled Demolition also did the cleanup in Okalahoma city and they brag about an explosive they invented that is capable of bringing down a building in pieces small enough to be hauled off by what ever equipment is available. In other words if you have trucks that will handle 30 foot lengths of steel we will slice it up in 30 foot lengths or less.

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Has anyone recreated the situation to see what burning jet fuel does to a steal and concrete building?
This is another bit of propaganda that has been happily accepted by the public. The structure of the twin towers was 100% steel. the concrete was used as light weight flooring material and served no structural support of the building whatsoever. I have yet to find anyone that has been successful at slicing up 200,000 tons of steel or any amount of steel with a load of jet fuel. It seems the hijackers were the first to make this amazing discovery. Anyone that took metal shop in school and used a furnace to heat a rod of steel to a cheery red so it could be pounded out into a chisel should understand how ridiculous it is for a hydrocarbon fire with a lack of oxygen could heat up that much steel. It is insulting to say the least.

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Bringing Pat Tillman's death into this theory only adds confusion. I can't believe that he had any insider knowledge that would make him a target. There may be a cover up related to events surrounding his death, but that is a separate story in itself and I don't think you should combine the two together.
Pat Tillman’s death could illustrate just how far this administration is willing to go to win. The circumstances surrounding his death venture far outside of a cover-up. If you read the articles you will quickly understand that the friendly fire that killed him was gross negligence to the point that the soldiers stopped firing at him then when he stood up they continued.

NFL star Pat Tillman joined the Army specifically to fight Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but was sent to participate in the invasion of Iraq against his wishes. He called the invasion, "so fucing illegal." Pat Tillman was going to campaign for Kerry after his tour. Can you imagine what that would have done to the election especially as close as it was to begin with?

"The administration clearly was using this case for its own political reasons. This cover-up started within minutes of Pat’s death, and it started at high levels. This is not something that (lower-ranking) people in the field do.”
Pat Tillman Sr.


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I don't really know what to do with this information or these theories. I am sure there are many things that happen that are concealed, but this one is hard to fathom since it involves death of innocent people, a large amount of people that would have had to been involved to pull this off, and a solid motive that is not evident to me.



Welcome to the club because I do not know what to do with it either. The 911 truth movement is not a bunch of hippies wearing tie dyed shirts it consists of congressmen, intellects, the former chief of staff for Bob Dole, 68% of New Yorkers, more then 400 families of victims and an increasing number of American people. The main stream media has blocked the truth movement and if you research it you will understand that Companies such as general Electric who also own one of the networks is also the 10th largest defense contractor in the nation. You have to look at who is profiting from this. Dick Chaney is the CEO of the largest defense contractor in the country and he was awarded a NO BID contract to supply the militaries needs in the current wars. Unocal was building a pipeline from the Caspian sea but they stopped well before 911 due to other unrest in Afghanistan. The day after we finished killing people in Afghanistan Unocal continued operations. The Carlyle group which is group of Israelis (including the Bin Laden’s) and the Bush family are on the board of directors. Unocal is one of their holdings.

History is full of self inflicted terror to gain public support.
Reichstag Fire (February 27, 1933) and the refusal of most Germans to question the official story

Enabling Act
passed after Reichstag Fire to temporarily suspend civil liberties to deal with the terrorist threat posed by Communists. The temporary emergency lasted until Germany was in ruins in 1945.

With a lot less at stake than now, US intelligence agencies in the 1960s prepared for the Joint Chiefs of the country's military plans by launching a wave of terrorism across the USA.
The intent was to build public support at home and abroad for a military invasion of Cuba. Despite all the anti-communism of the preceding 20 years, most Americans and most of America's allies still felt that saying a country's leader was a "Commie" just wasn't enough reason for going to war with them.
Hence the need for the "very" top secret and recently declassified Operation Northwood’s.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old -23-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

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Originally Posted by UtterBlitz
I don't really know what to do with this information or these theories.
I would recommend that instead of thinking that these theories are correct, maybe study what happened, what was reported, and find out if it all was possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UtterBlitz
a large amount of people that would have had to been involved to pull this off, and a solid motive that is not evident to me.
Not necessarily a large number of people. It could have only been one plus the terrorists.
I think everyone believes that the Arab extremists, as well as others, actually do wish to commit acts like 9-11. As hard as it is to believe that two such strong towers are gone, as well as another of the buildings in New York, plus an attack on the pentagon in an unmanned area, I can actually believe that only one person with the ability to obtain drawings of the WTC, and allow access to the building so terrorists could plant additional explosives could be involved. Think about it: before 9-11, there might have been very lax background checks. The person might have gotten a job in security, maintenance, or many other places in the WTC. From there, he could have made copies of keys or access cards. Some form of blueprints might have been available at a library, city hall, or the internet...or they might have just been stolen. If the terrorists had someone working for them that knew explosives or buiding demolition, a lot of questions are answered.
As far as the Pentagon situation....I have seen videos of the aftermath replayed on TV, and I, too, wonder why there isn't very much debris at the scene. Considering the size of the fires at the WTC, I expected a huge fire at the Pentagon. I didn't see one. I expected to see more aircraft debris. I never saw that. Comparing the damage of the Pentagon to the damage of the WTC towers, the Pentagon escaped in great shape. Either the kind of aircraft that crashed was much smaller, or it wasn't an airplane at all. This makes me wonder...if an enemy was able to penetrate our defenses and fire a missle into the Pentagon, would the government admit this? I know I wouldn't. But then, that means we have a missing plane and passengers. I have no answer for that...

Honestly, I think it was a bunch of Arab terrorists who attacked our country. I also think they had information given to them to help them succeed. I also think there was two sources for the info: an employee of the WTC who helped by letting them in to plant explosives (if the airplanes were shot down, the explosives would guarantee the success of the terrorists) and a "spy" in the government who was paid off or threatened. I doubt the "spy" was a top level person, but still high enough to know when and where to hit. A last minute feeling of guilt may be why the Pentagon was hit in an unoccupied area. I also believe that bush knows more than he will ever tell. I have to believe this is due to national security issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UtterBlitz
I will also admit that I had trouble comprehending the towers collapsing as quickly and as cleanly as they did. The collapses do not seem to make sense in the world of physics. They claimed jet fuel burned hot enough to weaken the steel structure and cause its collapse and I bought in to that.
We ALL bought into that. Jet fuel is about the same thing as kerosene. Kerosene doesn't burn as hot as gasoline. Yet, the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building didn't start as big of a fire! The outside of the ESB is concrete, but the inside was not as fireproof as the WTC. The fire was fought with 1945 technology, the WTC fire was in a building with fireproofing, a sprinkler system, and modern firefighting technology. Yet, the ESB is still there...and the twin towers are gone...

This is something that you have to decide for yourself.
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Old -23-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

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Originally Posted by Fat Pang
But not one of these august bodies said "...our government blew up these buildings....".

Who said that then?
I don't understand the question. August bodies?
  #25 (permalink)  
Old -23-01-2006
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Re: Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

Sorry........well respected bodies.

Who I'm sure would be appalled to hear you use their conclusions to support your contention that your elected officials along with hundreds of of your fellow countrymen willingly set out to murder thousands of Americans in order to fight a war by by proxy through General Dostum and the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and then launch an attack on Iraq.

To what end exactly? To prove a neo-conservative hypothesis, or to avenge the attempt on his dads life?

Come on!

This ignores several things, not the least of which is that if you and hundreds of others around the globe can piece this together then so can hostile foreign intelligence agancies who would definitely use it to discredit the US.

Not to mention allied intelligence agencies such as MI5 and MI6 and DSG.

How do you keep all these people quiet?

They can't keep you quiet.

Refer to my earlier post where I say that some Americans inability to imagine a threat that can touch them on home soil, bypassing conventional safeguards makes them prey to this kind of fantastic conspiracy theory.

You are also underestimating AL Qaeda and the strength of fundamental Islam, which is something that got us all in this mess in the first place.

As for the analogy of the Reichstag fire, that is specious at best. The Reichstag fire was wholly designed to allow Hitler whose appointment was the result of back stair politicking by Hindenburg and his sidekicks (Hitler did not win an outright majority in the '33 elections and they thought they could manipulate him once appointed) to declare a state of emergency to liquidate internal opposition to his regime, most notably the communists.

You are saying that GW Bush comitted an act of terror against his own people that makes the Reichstag fire pale into insignificance. That he is a mass murdering tyrant?

Why then would he bother to apply the norms of the system of checks and balances to his admininstration? Why would he bother to conduct a foreign 'policy' at all. Why would he be susceptible to the pressure of his allies when he is in charge of the most powerful military in the world? Why hasn't he launched similar attacks against Iran and North Korea? Why hasn't he stated his willingness to use force to defend Taiwan? Why hasn't he arbitrarily executed all those prisoners at Guantanamo Bay? Why is he bothering trying to assert a burden of proof in any of this mess?

If his capable of the attacks on the WTC the why would he think himself obliged to step down at the end of his term?

If what you say is true then think on to other possible implications and ask yourself whether it's reasonable to follow the path you have taken this first step on.

He's a fool ,not a mass murdering tyrant, Dangerous but not homicidal.

Read a little wider, I urge you. Read AL QAEDA by Jason Burke, and if they don't scare you now, they will do.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old -23-01-2006
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