Every American Should See And Hear What The Rest Of the World Already Knows

Originally Posted by ramsbruce

I'm not positive but I think Fat Pang means that the engineers and other professionals you quoted in your posts never came out and said that the US gov't blew up those buildings.

If I am mistaken Fat Pang I apologize.

Oh OK. Sorry but I have never heard it expressed that way. I don't know of any structual engineers that have accused the U.S. Government of blowing up those buildings however I do know of structual engineers that have stated that the collapse of the towers can only be explained through controlled demolition. as far as government complicity, the fact that FEMA and the Kean commission A.K.A. The 911 commission were limited in their investigation in that they had to use the official conspiracy theory as their foundation. Anyone that has the slightest understanding of steel or has seen a building collapse knows that a building collapsing does not shred steel beams and turn everything else to dust. Sure if you drop a piece of concrete from 1,300 feet in the air it will crumble but it is not going to turn to dust. Furthermore the concrete and everything else in the building turned to dust before it hit the ground not afterwards. In the case of the towers their demolition was from the top down. If you watch the videos you will see explosion squibs 10 to 20 floors ahead of the demolition wave. In the case of buildin 7 the center support in the building was blown up first which causes the outer walls to be pulled inward then the perimiter supports of the building are blown. The fact that the towers did collapse is in itself evidence of demolition since this is the only way these types of buildings have ever been brought down before however the manner in which they collapsed leave little to argue that they were controlled demolition. If you have never seen a building taken down by explosives before then I can understand the hesitation however once you have seen a few of these controlled demolitions its pretty hard to arrgue that it was anything but. Especially in the case of building 7.

[r8rh8rmike]

Wow, hard to believe anyone can think politics is a dirty business with no bounds.

Fat Pang
I appreciate your rebuttal however you are not addressing the evidence. The physical evidence nor the statements made by those accused. Can you really look at the pictures and the video of the Pentagon where it was reported that a 757 slammed into the ground floor and see no wing no fuselage no passengers, no landing gear, no engines no tail, nothing that is consistant with a boeing 757 crashing there and not question the official story? If you came home and your house was a blaze and you saw an 18'' diameter hole in the wall and someone told you that a car had crashed there then vaporized and you could find no trace of a car inside or outside you would not question the story and question the person that told you that story?

If you came home and found a crater in your front yard 15 feet deep and 20 feet wide and your neighbor told you that a plane had crashed there then vaporized you would not question the story and the person who told you the story? Then your driving along and over a mile away from your house you begin to find pieces of a plane including an engine. Then you continue driving finding pieces of airplane up to 8 miles away would you not wonder if perhaps the plane wasn't shot down and the story of the plane vaporizing may be a lie?

If someone told you that a plane had crashed there then the pilot got out of the plane then he went a robbed a bank and then came back got in his crashed airplane and used it as a get away plane would you question that if it came from official sources? Exactly what would have to happen before you questioned the official story?

Today’s Headlines:



A woman nearly froze to death while sitting in front of her wood burning stove. Paramedics said that her steel framed wood burning stove had 4 well seasoned oak logs inside of it. When asked why she did not light the wood on fire to warm herself she replied; “Obviously you haven’t read the 911 Commission report?”



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The owner of a 60 story steel framed sky scraper was arrested for arson when he allegedly set fires to the 2nd and 7th floors of his building. Lawyers for the suspect are arguing that their client has gone through the necessary channels to obtain the permits needed for controlled demolition of his own building.



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A man was arrested today after authorities had to evacuate several people from the back yard of the suspects home. Witnesses in the area are reporting that the suspect foolishly poured Kingsford lighter fluid directly onto a pile of coals in a multi level steel framed barbecue. Authorities believe that after setting the fire, the lid was then closed nearly all of the way down allowing only a small amount of oxygen to enter. NORAD scrambled fighter jets and flew them over the Atlantic ocean for approximately one hour. “It was a miracle nobody was injured!” said one eyewitness. Just as the last of the evacuee were whisked away, total collapse of the barbecue ensued. The top rack of the barbecue heated until it lost its load bearing strength causing it to crash down on to the next grill and so on and so on. As we have learned initial collapse of steel framed barbecues inevitably lead to total collapse. Nothing could have survived that fire said "Dr. Thomas Eagar." Not surprisingly, the event triggered two coals to catch fire in another steel framed barbecue approximately 30 feet away. As expected the raging inferno caused complete and total collapse of that barbecue as well. Two military F16 fighters were seen flying over head after the second collapse. NORAD is investigating the route of the scrambled fighters claiming that the FAA may not have warned them in time. NORAD is also investigating whether or not they did indeed scramble any jets. Meanwhile President Bush has issued a stern warning to all evil doers. Bush said that he is ready to attack somebody someplace that has oil in order to protect American Sheeple. The American Sheeple are praising the administration for their handling of the situation. A spokesman at the pentagon said they were not sure about anything including the date displayed on their security video. The suspect is being held without bail until authorities get around to charging him with a crime. It is also being reported that the FBI found a barbecue manual in the suspects car. Depending upon the charges filed, He could face the maximum sentence allowed which is a date with Janet Reno. Conspiracy theorists are questioning the official story stating that no steel framed charcoal barbecue fire has ever caused a steel framed barbecue to collapse before.

[Fat Pang]

Very good RamTime LOL

Nice to see the lighter side...............

I'll reply to your earlier post on evidence when I'm able to sit at my desk for more than 10 minutes..

Originally Posted by Fat Pang

Very good RamTime LOL

Nice to see the lighter side...............

I'll reply to your earlier post on evidence when I'm able to sit at my desk for more than 10 minutes..

LOL Yes I thought it was quite clever myself.

By the way, it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Always good to meet another Rams fan.

[Fat Pang]

Originally Posted by RamTime

LOL Yes I thought it was quite clever myself.

By the way, it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Always good to meet another Rams fan.

A pleasure Sir, it's always nice to know that there are people that share the same obsessions.

Except that on this particular issue I can't agree with you. But neither can I quote from an extensive source base and use this to phrase a rebuttal. I have access to the same facts but choose to interpret them in different ways.

My argument revolves around several points.

The first of which is that for this to be true, it would have had to involve the active or tacit participation of hundreds if not thousands of individuals all of whom would acting in the full knowledge that they were about to murder thousands of their own countrymen in the space of a few hours. And furthermore, that they would be embarking their country on a war, or series of wars, that would last for decades maybe a lifetime. That would, dependent on it's escalation, involve friends, neighbours and their own families and would reach to the doors of their own neighbourhoods.

It assumes a level of determined, murderous will on behalf of the executive branch of the US government to carry out an atrocity of such appalling horror without an objective to justify or mitigate it.

Wars and Empire are economically disastrous, and any and all action of this type that is claimed to provide a competitive advantage to those who perpetrate it is poorly conceived and planned, and will have taken no notice of history or of common humanity.

Manipulation of stocks and oil prices can be done outside of genocide. It's not an elegant or effective solution.

It would also deny the ability of AL QAEDA, with it's huge level of funding, huge level of popular support, large supply of willing martyrs, and increasingly sophisticated skill base, to mount outrageous, ambitious attacks on the west.

It assumes the willing compliance of friends and allies and the negligent ignorance of enemies.

It assumes that the press, who have previously proven their effectiveness in cases of this kind, will suddenly turn mute.

It relies on the mythical idea of 'Fortress America' with it's infallible warning systems, unparalled techology, seamless integration, instant communication, and decisive executive, being undermined from within.

In the latest issue of SI, Paul Tagliabue talks of the two lessons he learned from his time at the Pentagon:-

1) No matter how well designed the system is, monkeys still run the system.
2)Whoever is most critical to your plan will be in the crapper when you need him.

The building collapsed because:-

1) The impact of the plane hitting the building blew off the 30 year old fire retardant foam coating that covered the steel trusses. It was said that age had made the coating ineffective in any case.

2) The resultant heat did not liquefy the steel trusses but weakened the trusses where they joined to the external superstructure. The WTC was ahead of it's time in that in order to get the requisite amount of lifts in the building, it could not be built in the ordinary way as it was too high for a conventional series of lift shafts. This entailed transferring some of the load bearing nature of the building from its core to it's external superstructure.

The trusses, having been weakened to a critical degree by the heat of the fire could bear the load of the floors above and started to fracture and twist causing the floors located at the point of impact to collapse onto the floors below thereby starting the pancaking.

As the floors started to pancake, because the exterior of the building was rigid, the building collapsed in on itself.

3) Whilst the WTC was built to with stand a plane impact along the lines of what happened to the Empire State Building in '42, the architect of the WTC said that the modelling took no account of the size, speed or more critically the fuel load of a modern jet airliner.

So, I just cannot support the hypothesis that your commander in chief willingly murdered his own people so that he could go and clobber a bunch of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and then go and avenge his dad.

I believe GW and his neo-conservative friends are intent on an American centered policy that ignores world opinion, pays no attention to Economic and environmental reality, is dangerously insular, that alienates friends and allies, that gives succour to some highly distasteful regimes across the world, that kidnaps foreign nationals in their own countries, and that finally delivers no long term benefit to it's people.

All you are going to see when this man goes is a world recession, a spiralling budget deficit and a conflict you can't win. And why?

Because he's idiotically immune to reason, not because he's a mass murdering tyrant.

[AvengerRam]

Originally Posted by RamsFanSam

Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.

No, that's not correct.

Quite frequently, one side is entirely correct, and one side is entirely fabricated.

[UtterBlitz]

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

Quite frequently, one side is entirely correct, and one side is entirely fabricated.

Some people see things in Black and White. Other people see many shades of gray between the black and the white.

[HUbison]

Originally Posted by UtterBlitz

Some people see things in Black and White. Other people see many shades of gray between the black and the white.

Just like some want to believe everything is relative while others know there are absolute truths.

[AvengerRam]

Originally Posted by UtterBlitz

Some people see things in Black and White. Other people see many shades of gray between the black and the white.

So let me make sure I'm clear on this...

Because I believe that there are times (not always, mind you) that things are black and white, that automatically makes me a "sees things in black and white" kind of person.

In other words, you think that anyone who ever sees things in black and white, must necessarily always see things in black and white.

What a decidedly black and white view you seem to have on that subject.

[AvengerRam]

People who subscribe to conspiracy theories such as the one suggested in this thread typically overlook just how many people would have to be either in on the conspiracy, or under the control of those who are in on the conspiracy, for it to work.

In this case, here's who would have to be among, or controlled by, the conspirators:

Every passenger on the four flights, their families and friends (who would notice if they never came home from the flight), air traffic controllers, emergency response personnel, investigators, the media, clean up crews, every person killed at the WTC and Pentagon, their families and friends, Al-Quaeda (after all, they openly took responsibility for the acts), the FBI and the CIA.

If you think our government could organize and pull off a conspiracy of that magnitude... well, if they're that sinister, maybe you should consider moving to a remote cabin in the Yukon or Australian Outback.

[Fat Pang]

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they focus on the role of organisations rather than the people within the organisations.

This impersonalises the whole debate and makes it much easier to believe.

There's no such thing as an 'absolute right' and there's no such thing as an 'absolute truth'.

Everything is relative because everything is dependent.

[RamsFanSam]

Well, I was just going to come in here and say that RT needs to take a lot of these conspiracy theories with a grain of salt.
I said in an earlier post in this thread that I like to go to these conspiracy websites for a laugh. Most of the things that are discussed there are so crazy, you just have to laugh. For example:
1. Comets do not consist of ice, rocks, and dust. They are 'electric'.
2. There are real rain forests on Mars! (Just look at the obviously Photoshopped picture!)
3. Bush is the antiChrist.
4. Cheyney is the antiChrist.
5. Planet "X" orbits the sun once every 3600 years, and the Nephilim live there!
6. The world leaders are plotting the spread of bird flu: this will cause population reduction, and when martial law is implemented, the PTB will have free slave labor in the FEMA labor prisons.
7. Katrina was 'steered' towards New Orleans with HAARP technology.
8. Those white vapor trails behind airplanes you always thought were water and ice crystals? Nope! Them there things is nuttin' less than Chemicals the guvmint is using to control the people! I swear! My sister done knew someone who married Bigfoot's sister, and Elvis lives there and told her!

Seriously, 95% or more of the stuff in those conspiracy websites is nothing more than someone's fantasy. Some of it is compelling. Some of it is true. Problem is, it is all thrown together, and there is no way to judge the truthfullness except verifying it for yourself. I wouldn't believe too much...tinfoil hats don't go with Rams jerseys too well.
RamTime, you took the time to find inconsistencies and ask questions. You now have more questions than answers. I'll still say I think that 9-11 wasn't just 19 hijackers from the mideast led by one rich arab. I think that there were more people involved....like I said, maybe a security guard at the WTC, and a cleaning lady at the Pentagon. Who knows, maybe the CIA did know something about it in advance, but had no way to stop it. But to think that it was all done by the government for money and/or power, that IS a reach. I will also say that some things do stink....how did the 900+ pages of the so-called Patriot Act get written, edited, and voted on in just a few days after 9-11? The only way was if it was already printed, waiting for a situation to come along that would allow it's passing. To me, this means the government knew that someday there would be a threat that needed to be eliminated. I don't like the PA, I wish it was repealed. I don't like bush...I think he took advantage of the situation for personal gain. Cheyney...hey, wasn't he the CEO for Haliburton, the company who got a no-bid contract in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as NO?

RT, keep right on digging....there are answers to be found. Just don't expect the answers to be like the conspiracy theory.

[UtterBlitz]

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

Because I believe that there are times (not always, mind you) that things are black and white, that automatically makes me a "sees things in black and white" kind of person.

In other words, you think that anyone who ever sees things in black and white, must necessarily always see things in black and white.

What a decidedly black and white view you seem to have on that subject.

Busted. I was classifying you as a B&W type Avenger

I am glad that you noticed that. That makes me laugh. I guess I am being hypocritical. I am sure that you are not B&W all the time.

So Avenger, does this discussion make you curious about the buildings collapsing as they did, at all? Do you want to know what the building designer put in place to stop such a disaster from occurring? Since the Empire State Building was hit by a plane, they had to think about the consequences of that happening again. Don't you think it is odd that three buildings collapsed? One of which did not even have a plane crashed into it.

Are you curious as to if there is a cover-up regarding Pat Tillman's death? I doubt it is related to Ramtime's big theory of government involvement, but his death was highly publicized and he made out to be a hero. It is pretty sad if they military is burying the issue so that they don't get bad press, but I am sure they need more young men to enlist and talking about soldiers getting shot by friendly fire is never good press.

I am sorry, but I am curious and I think things that seem odd should get a second look. I am not jumping on the "government planned out and orchestrated 9/11" bandwagon, but I do think that some things about 9/11 seem odd. Perhaps a lot more is known and is being kept from the public for safety reasons.

I think you should not discount all the research that has been done by many people so easily. They may not have the right theory in place, but they may have noticed clues that may lead to a more correct understanding of the events that occurred around 9/11.