Nice comeback.

[psycho9985]

One Nation, "Under God".

One day a 6-year-old girl was sitting in a classroom. The teacher was going to explain "evolution" to the children.

The teacher asked a little boy: Tommy do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

TEACHER: Go outside and look up a see if you can see the sky.

TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.

TEACHER: Did you see God?

TOMMY: No.


TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He just doesn't exist.

A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions.

The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy:

Tommy, do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY: Yessssss!

LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?

TOMMY: Yessssss!

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?

TOMMY: Yes

LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?

TOMMY: No



LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!

(You Go Girl!)

FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT" II CORINTHIANS 5:7

Don't forget to pass this on! I love this one. Everyone should send this to everyone they know, especially today with prayer restricted in schools.

HE answers prayer.

[AvengerRam]

Learn it, know it, live it.

[cowboyhater]

Uhhh. I didn't see congress establishing a religion in this story.

I did see the respondent freely exercising his religion.

[AvengerRam]

Actually, I was responding to this part of psycho's post:

especially today with prayer restricted in schools.

Notwithstanding what Bill O'Reilly may have told you, prayer is not merely restricted in [public] schools "today," it has been restricted since the Constitution was enacted.

It boggles my mind that people don't get this very simple concept.

[cowboyhater]

Avenger Ram, you should know better than that.

There was absolutely no restriction on the states regarding school prayer until the incorporation doctrine. That would be post War of 1860.

Heck, there wasn't even much in the way of public schools in the 18th century.

The (in)famous restrictions date back (I believe) to 1963 and the Warren Court.

And no, I do not believe they got it right any more than Dred Scott or Plessy were gotten right.

You COULD make the case that with the post war Amendments and the incorporation doctrine, that the law had changed tehn and was just mostly ignored for 80 years. You could also make the case that school prayer is no more the establishment of a state religion than the prayers still said in Congress. Any of us could make the case that the current law is good or bad. But please, please, please, don't pretend that the Founding Fathers intended to have the kind of restrictions we had today, and that the First Amendment was crafted with that in mind.

[AvengerRam]

Oh please. I'm well aware of the history of the Constitution, thank you very much.

Nonetheless the principle of separating Church and State has been around since the First Amendment. How this principle has been enforced, and against which entities (federal, State, local, etc.) has obviously evolved over time, but that's not pertinent to my point.

And yes, I do firmly believe that the prohibitions that prevent non-Christian children from being exposed to Christian rhetoric by publicly-funded schools is entirely consistent with the ideals that were in the minds of the Founding Fathers.

Thus, when someone laments that we live in a country that "restricts prayer in school" I think its an appropriate time to remind that person of the text of the First Amendment.

[cowboyhater]

If you know the history of the Constitution, don't lie abnout it.

Thomas Jefferson's line about separation of church and state are not in the Constitution. The plain langugae trumps everything. (This was the same Thomas Jefferson that sent Dr. de Smet, the Jesuit out to convert the Indians, interestingly. Jefferson was not always consistent with himself, and the Constitution is not his.)

If the enforcement has "evolved" over time, your version was NOT there in the beginning, and it can "evolve" right back again.

And yes, I do firmly believe that the prohibitions that prevent non-Christian children from being exposed to Christian rhetoric by publicly-funded schools is entirely consistent with the ideals that were in the minds of the Founding Fathers.

The passage in question was not explicitly "Christian", and of course we know what you think. You have made it abundantly clear. Some of the greatest legal minds in the country agree with you, some don't. The plain language doesn't. It shows a lack of a solid argument to trot out the First Amendment, claim game, set and match, IGNORE the history (while claiming when caught that you know it), and smear anybody who has the audacicity to disagree with you. Frankly, your case is better served by the 14th Amendment than by the 1st.

Oh, and for the record, I cannot stand Bill O'Reilly. It is unfortunate that you have to imply that honest men cannot come to these conclusions on their own, and need a talking head to plant them.

You can say whatever you want, and I will call you on it when you make misleading statements, broad smears, or even things I just plain disagree with. This is a private board, so the First Amendment doesn't apply, but have at it.

[HUbison]

I'm not a lawyer. I don't even watch Matlock re-runs. Therefore, I'm not even going to pretend to have the legal knowledge of AV, CH, GC, or any other legal minded guys and gals here.

I do have a question, though.

In a school district that is 100% a certain religion (pick one....Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, whatever), should school prayer be allowed?

[tta61]

Oh please. I'm well aware of the history of the Constitution, thank you very much.

Nonetheless the principle of separating Church and State has been around since the First Amendment. How this principle has been enforced, and against which entities (federal, State, local, etc.) has obviously evolved over time, but that's not pertinent to my point.

And yes, I do firmly believe that the prohibitions that prevent non-Christian children from being exposed to Christian rhetoric by publicly-funded schools is entirely consistent with the ideals that were in the minds of the Founding Fathers.

Thus, when someone laments that we live in a country that "restricts prayer in school" I think its an appropriate time to remind that person of the text of the First Amendment.

Well put Av

[tta61]

I'm not a lawyer. I don't even watch Matlock re-runs. Therefore, I'm not even going to pretend to have the legal knowledge of AV, CH, GC, or any other legal minded guys and gals here.

I do have a question, though.

In a school district that is 100% a certain religion (pick one....Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, whatever), should school prayer be allowed?

IMPO......yes

[tta61]

One Nation, "Under God".

One day a 6-year-old girl was sitting in a classroom. The teacher was going to explain "evolution" to the children.

The teacher asked a little boy: Tommy do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

TEACHER: Go outside and look up a see if you can see the sky.

TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.

TEACHER: Did you see God?

TOMMY: No.


TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He just doesn't exist.

A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions.

The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy:

Tommy, do you see the tree outside?

TOMMY: Yes.

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?

TOMMY: Yessssss!

LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?

TOMMY: Yessssss!

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?

TOMMY: Yes

LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?

TOMMY: No



LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!

(You Go Girl!)

FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT" II CORINTHIANS 5:7

Don't forget to pass this on! I love this one. Everyone should send this to everyone they know, especially today with prayer restricted in schools.

HE answers prayer.

Good one is right pyscho! Thanks!

[AvengerRam]

If you know the history of the Constitution, don't lie abnout it.

Thomas Jefferson's line about separation of church and state are not in the Constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

If that's not a pronouncement that the government should not take any action that expressly or implicitly supports religious beliefs, I don't know what is.

Yes, Thomas Jefferson and others among the founding fathers were men of faith. Nonetheless, they were familiar with the detrimental effect of State-sponsored religion, and consequently made a point of separating Church and State by the language quoted above.

It shows a lack of a solid argument to trot out the First Amendment, claim game, set and match, IGNORE the history (while claiming when caught that you know it), and smear anybody who has the audacicity to disagree with you. Frankly, your case is better served by the 14th Amendment than by the 1st.

The 14th Amendment, unlike the 1st Amendment, does not mention religion. The 14th Amendment does contain the "equal protection" clause, applicable to the States, which extends many of the protections which predated that amendment.

So, before you gloat that you "caught" me (which you didn't - I stand by my original statement), perhaps you should substantiate your claim. Indeed, its ironic that you accuse me of "smearing" you, then proceed to claim that I don't know what I'm talking about.

It is unfortunate that you have to imply that honest men cannot come to these conclusions on their own

I don't doubt your honesty. I do doubt your perspective. I, as I have made clear on several occasions, am not of the majority religion of this country. I also have children who are of elementary school age. I choose to send them to private school, but if I ever were to send them to public school, I would be appalled if I were to hear that their teachers (paid with my tax money) were promoting religious beliefs, traditions or icons.

I don't believe you've walked in my shoes and, consequently, you don't share my perspective.

[tta61]

Av 1 are you pposed to prayer in the school?.........Not sure if i'm reading you right.

[AvengerRam]

I do have a question, though.

In a school district that is 100% a certain religion (pick one....Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, whatever), should school prayer be allowed?

I'll take your hypothetical one step further. Let's assume that in the school district in question, 100% of the population is of the same sect of the same religion, and there is no chance of that ever changing.

Its still unlawul to require prayer in public schools.

This is where the 14th Amendment comes into play. While the First Amendment prohibited acts of Congress, the 14th extends protections and prohibitions to the States. In doing so, the 14th Amendment reflects a policy of not allowing States (or, by extension, counties and muicipalities) to have unlimited freedom to opt-out of the base principles of the Constitution by virtue of local legislation.

Just as a muncipality cannot pass a law that states, "In the Town of Bohunk, it shall be a felony to express opposition to the government," (even if everyone in the town thinks that's a good idea), a municipality cannot sponsor prayer in public schools, regardless of the majority's will.

[HUbison]

I'll take your hypothetical one step further. Let's assume that in the school district in question, 100% of the population is of the same sect of the same religion, and there is no chance of that ever changing.

Its still unlawul to require prayer in public schools.

This is where the 14th Amendment comes into play. While the First Amendment prohibited acts of Congress, the 14th extends protections and prohibitions to the States. In doing so, the 14th Amendment reflects a policy of not allowing States (or, by extension, counties and muicipalities) to have unlimited freedom to opt-out of the base principles of the Constitution by virtue of local legislation.

Just as a muncipality cannot pass a law that states, "In the Town of Bohunk, it shall be a felony to express opposition to the government," (even if everyone in the town thinks that's a good idea), a municipality cannot sponsor prayer in public schools, regardless of the majority's will.

Speaking in lay terms though, doesn't this seem.....I don't know, just "not right". You've got a group of people that all believe the same way, sending their kids to a school paid by their taxes, yet they're being told they can't practice their agreed faith in that same institution which is funded by their taxes.

It just doesn't seem "right". Hope I didn't lose anyone with those technical terms. LOL

I, as I have made clear on several occasions, am not of the majority religion of this country. I also have children who are of elementary school age.

Well, it appears that secularism is becoming the new majority religion, but that's a different topic. I am a Christian, and I too, would be very upset if my children were forced to partake in other faith practices. I hope they learn about them, but I certainly don't want them to be practiced in the school system.

And, I am equally opposed to the practice of atheistic beliefs in my schools. Don't tell my child there is no God. This practice, I believe, is becoming more prevalent in our local schools, and certainly our state-funded public universities. I, for one, think this is every bit as wrong as pushing other faith practices on our children. Atheism is a faith and has absolutely no place in public schools.