The Other Cartoons

[coy bacon]

Dez has asked that no one post the cartoons that depict Muhammad and are offensive to some Muslims.

Anyone here have any comments on the situation? On the protests that have occured in the Mideast and Europe, and Asia?

Or, is this truely a "too-sensitive" topic?

I think people around the world are beginning to wake up and see things for how they really are.

[RamsFanSam]

A cartoon got published, and now thousands of Muslims are protesting, burning buildings, and rioting, all because they think it is an insult to their religion.

If I follow the same logic:

I have seen TV news footage of Arabs burning the American flag, insulting the United States, so we should riot and burn down their embassies.

I have seen TV news footage of Arabs holding badly-spelled signs denouncing Judiasm and Christianity, insulting millions of Jews and Christians, so we should protest and riot.

I have seen TV news reports of Arabs screaming "Death to America! Death to Britian! Death to Israel". Should we send suicide bombers into Arab cities?

In my opinion, this is a case where the Muslims think it is fine to insult other cultures, but can't take it when they are on the receiving end.

[SFCRamFan]

In my opinion, this is a case where the Muslims think it is fine to insult other cultures, but can't take it when they are on the receiving end.

That just about sums up the whole hypocritical attitude of the muslim religion in my opinion. Yet, we continue to turn the other cheek, which merely bolsters their ideal that we are weak and must be overtaken.

I'm tired of sending soldiers off to war with one hand tied behind their back because we don't want to offend anyone. I'm not talking about all out pillaging on our part, just doing what is right. Too often we have been fired at from Mosques. Our people get picked off and killed one by one because we can't shoot at a Mosque because we might offend someone. Give me a break. If they are using a Mosque as a place to wage war or put it into the battle, then they are the ones that should be offending their own people. However, muslims don't see it that way.

[psycho9985]

Originally Posted by SFCRamFan

That just about sums up the whole hypocritical attitude of the muslim religion in my opinion. Yet, we continue to turn the other cheek, which merely bolsters their ideal that we are weak and must be overtaken.

I'm tired of sending soldiers off to war with one hand tied behind their back because we don't want to offend anyone. I'm not talking about all out pillaging on our part, just doing what is right. Too often we have been fired at from Mosques. Our people get picked off and killed one by one because we can't shoot at a Mosque because we might offend someone. Give me a break. If they are using a Mosque as a place to wage war or put it into the battle, then they are the ones that should be offending their own people. However, muslims don't see it that way.

That my friend gets a big Ditto from me,and I'm sure lots of other folks.One thing you forgot:Reporters from all over the world who claim neutrality are imbedded with the insurgents giving away our troop positions getting us killed,and some of the reporters are American.Cant lay a hand on them or all hell would break loose,they lie cheat and steal to make us look bad,make us look like Nazis just to get a story.Got to get me that Pulitzer.

Muslims Cut off peoples heads in the name of Islam on camera,then riot burn and kill because of a cartoon:Maybe one in bad taste but its freedom of speech none the less,but not a reason for Killing.This just goes to show you that their not peaceful and they dont care for peace.

[Fat Pang]

Originally Posted by coy bacon

Dez has asked that no one post the cartoons that depict Muhammad and are offensive to some Muslims.

Anyone here have any comments on the situation? On the protests that have occured in the Mideast and Europe, and Asia?

Or, is this truely a "too-sensitive" topic?

I think people around the world are beginning to wake up and see things for how they really are.

I can completely understand why Dez has asked that no-one post those cartoons. Whether you believe that there are no controversial questions, only answers too rehearsed (adarian) or no controversial questions just controverial answers (me) this topic is one that polarises opinion into violent extremes.

We don't want this forum to become the cyber version of Danish Embassies around the world, so caution is sensible.

However, when looking at the Islamic response to these feeble (and they are really feeble, skits) the intolerant, violent, unreasonable, bigoted character of them is redolent of the socities that have produced them.

Indonesia,Malaysia,SaudiArabia,Iran,Iraq,Pakistan,
Palestine, Syria, Lebanon,Turkey,Egypt etc,etc,etc. It's an 'honour roll' of deeply riven, dysfunctional societies that barely function in a way that is recognisable as modern nation state. The quality of secular life is so miserable that the populace is driven into the arms of the extreme.

Such as the The Imam, who drives children from the age of 5 or 6 to memorise the Koran by rote, written in a language that isn't their own (The Koran can only be written in Arabic in a madrassa). All other subjects are banned or seen as unecessary next to the word of God.

Such as the fundamentalist who wants to replace ineffectual arab nation states with a universal caliphate true to the word of the prophet and believes that the prophet legitimises the killing of innocent infidels with the heavenly delight.

Such as the moderate who is sick and tired of his poor propects, corrupt environment and cruel government that answers to no-one. He sees a culprit in the rich west that bankrolls his tormentor.

Is it any wonder that these people will rage against any offence against the central, the only, pillar of their existance?

The Islamic world is sick and we should pity these people not fear them, we should help them, not kill them and we should understand them, not despise them. (The only nation it's ok to despise is France)

I liken this world to Europe in the crusades or during the inquisition, or even during the publication of the Lutheran heresies. Faith was everything, life was nothing and even more importantly, it was cheap. Christianity was once a faith shorn of compromise and debate. I would argue that in many ways it still is with the ridiculous argument over the teaching of Biblical cosmology over science in US schools. There is also the religious simplification of the abortion issue.

These people, these Islamic extremists are ignorant,bigoted, misogynistic, murderous, misguided, dangerous , hypoctical nihilsists but they are like that for a reason and we should seek to understand it.

But we should also protect our rights and our cultural inheritance in the face of this unreasoning hate. Freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of ideas, and freedom of choice should all be vigorously defended. Those obnoxious peddlers of hate in the Mosques in London, Paris,Rome,Berlin and Madrid should be held accountable for the poison they spew whilst operating under the protection of the laws of the secular societies they seek to destroy.

They should have as much a need to understand us as we them, but it has to be made apparent that it's in their best interest to do so. We aren't going to do this by using the technological advantages gained by way of of our western democracy to annihalate them.

Why can't I have a Cathedral in Jeddah when there's a mosque in Hyde Park, London? Why can't Christian priests practice without threat in Pakistan when Imam's can belch violence in Luton? Why can't we publish cartoon's featuring the prophet when they can burn the Stars and Stripes?

Why?

Because it's taken us a long time to get to where we are, and they haven't even taken the first step yet.

We have to help them get there whilst protecting our own freedoms to the best of our ability.

[RamsFanSam]

Originally Posted by Fat Pang

We have to help them get there whilst protecting our own freedoms to the best of our ability.

This is much more difficult than most people understand. Many would like to "help" extremists with nuclear weapons, others by pandering to them, others by giving up the rights of non-muslims.

Since many Muslim-populated countries are still in the "dark ages" compared to the "modern world" (at least politically and economically), perhaps they need to be dealt with in a way they would understand: Ane eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

Attempting to treat an infitile culture (compared to modern standards) as a mature culture will result in nothing but misunderstandings.

Let me give a hypothetical situation:

A military coup in a far away land, I'll call it Slobovia, results in a dictatorship. The new regime outlaws all religious freedom, and calls for all citizens to follow the new state religion of "stuffism". Stuffism calls for the death of all non-believers. This establishes a tight control on all citizens. However, some in the country will carry this to extremes to be good Stuffists, and earn their "reward". Soon, these extremists occupy the government. A WMD is obtained, and the Slobovian government begins "sabre rattling" to prove it is a powerful force in the modern world, while most of the people are still living in tar paper shacks. When the Slobovian government opresses its own people, and begins attacking other countries litterally or figuratively, should the world sit and watch? Or should the world send in someone to restore order? How would that be accomplished? It would have to be done in a way that the Stiffists believe in, or it would not be effective. If the Stuffists teach that salvation is by death, then death is the only thing they will accept as right.

Giving in to the threats and desires of the Stuffists only furthers their goals.

[Fat Pang]

Sam, we aren't talking about nation states, or a coup, we are talking about the failure of arab nation states to provide an attractive alternative to the religious extremism 'Stuffism' would represent.

The 'Stuffists' in your scenario usurp authority via violence and then make it state policy. The people torching embassies aren't enforcing the state policy of any of those states I mentioned earlier. In many cases these people who are burning flags are acting in despite of it.

The problem is not rogue states in this case, it's a world religious movement that transcends national boundaries, particularly the national boundaries of failed states.

It's not an infantile culture either, it's a culture that is still tied to the inflexible apron strings of pre-scientific cosmology and tradition, and in the absence of progress sees no need to change.

What else can you give people who have nothing, or feel they have nothing?

When someone pens that cartoon, it demeans their reason for existence and thier culture, because no-one has given them a more viable one.

Their actions are at odds with all I hold dear, and I find their brand of extremism detestable, but the answer is not to embark on a reciprocal brand of extremism as a response.

We're better than that, and to be frank, we're better than them. We should demonstrate it.

[AvengerRam]

I fully respect any Muslim's right to determine what is to be deemed offensive to their religion.

Unfortunately, there are many in the Muslim world who don't care about what offends me: i.e. terrorism, advocating the destruction of Israel, protesting offensive cartoons violently, etc.

[psycho9985]

Talk about stirring up the hornets nest.

Moscow museum to exhibit Mohammed cartoons

MOSCOW, Feb. 7 (UPI) -- A Moscow museum has announced it will exhibit the entire series of cartoons of Mohammed that have caused riots throughout the Islamic world.
Yury Samodurov, director of the Sakharov Museum and Public Center, said on Russian television that the center was ready to organize a public exhibition of the cartoons satirizing the founder of Islam that originally were published in a Danish newspaper, Pravda.ru reported Monday.
"We must show the whole world that Russia goes along with Europe, that the freedom of expression is much more important for us than the dogmas of religious fanatics," Samodurov said.
The exhibition reportedly will open in March. Lawyer Yury Shmidt has said he will invite French philosopher Andre Glucksmann and French novelist Michel Houellebecq to the opening ceremony to read lectures about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism.
In 2003 the Sakharov Museum outraged many Russian Orthodox believers with the art exhibit "Be Careful -- Religion," which many felt was insulting to their beliefs.

[RamDez]

I think the point has been missed.

I ask that its not republished here because, it has been done so everywhere else. To do that now on this forum, would be an insult as there is no reason to republish it here.

[coy bacon]

Dez,
I wrote that you asked to not put up the toons here, so that nobody would do it. I would not want to see them posted here. This is our football site. I don't want to see it turned into a religious or politics site. There are plenty other places for that. Let them take it down the road.

I like the fact that you censor this site.