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  1. #16
    gap Guest

    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamWraith
    As much as I agree with what you are saying Avenger....who are you saying when you say "they"? Are you talking about that little girl, with the doll that was innocently playing hopscotch when she heard the loud rumble of a plane over head. Or maybe the young mother cooking a meal for her family when she sees this incredible bright light.

    I bet there are lot of people out there that feel our actions were criminal and still feel the effects of what we did. And I am not saying your wrong. But, it is all in the eyes of the beholder. In the same breath there were millions that thought Hitler (the low life slim that he was) was doing the right thing.

    I support 100% what you are saying, but there is always two sides to every story.
    SO how many terrorist organizations are standing in line to rebuild the twin towers?

    If I remember my high school history correctly, at least the US helped Japan rebuild itself. Which is a pretty good sign of repentance in my book.

    gap


  2. #17
    RamWraith's Avatar
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    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    All right...as much as I hate mudsligging ;-)

    So, if I blow up your house. Take away your family. Then help you rebuild it, find you a new wife and say I am sorry it all would make it all better... right? :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by gap
    SO how many terrorist organizations are standing in line to rebuild the twin towers?

    If I remember my high school history correctly, at least the US helped Japan rebuild itself. Which is a pretty good sign of repentance in my book.

    gap

  3. #18
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    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamWraith
    ooohh my friend....PLEASE DON'T take this the wrong way!

    BUT

    Hitler very much believed in this very same theory and where did it get him. Kill before being killed.

    And again, I am with you 100%. But, respect the fact that many more people out there besides me believe in something totally different.
    We didnt attack Japan or Germany.These two countries were the aggressors.When somebody attacks you,you do what ever it takes to put a stop to it. It would have taken 20 yrs to dig out all the japanese combatants in those south pacific islands,and at what cost to american lives.Hitler tried to exterminate a race and religion,we should hve dropped the bomb on him.
    My heart beats crazy and my blood runs wild

  4. #19
    gap Guest

    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamWraith
    All right...as much as I hate mudsligging ;-)

    So, if I blow up your house. Take away your family. Then help you rebuild it, find you a new wife and say I am sorry it all would make it all better... right? :-)
    That depends on how well you build the house and how attractive the wife would be.

    Seriously.

    I apologize if you have already taken this into consideration, but the US had to seriously humilate Japan in defeat. They are a very strong, proud (but not arrogant), and tight nit nation. They had to realize how futile it would be to continue that fight. If a lesser attack would have done the job, I believe the US would have chosen it.

    It was also a retaliatory attack against a nation that attacked us without provocation. Hittler and Stalin weren't provoked by the people they used unnecessary force against.

    gap

  5. #20
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    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    I hope you all understand that I am not saying anything I believe and agree with all your points on WW II.

    However, the fact remains that we feel the way we do because we are proud Americans and see our actions as noble and heroic. There are still a lot of people out there that believe we are the problem and Germany and Japan were not and that they were only trying to make a better life. The original question was geared at a "criminal", and many people were using the amount of people that were slain as examples of criminal behavior. Under them same circumstances and based on pure numbers Truman would have to fallen into the category you all talking about.



    Quote Originally Posted by gap

    It was also a retaliatory attack against a nation that attacked us without provocation. Hittler and Stalin weren't provoked by the people they used unnecessary force against.

    gap

  6. #21
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    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamWraith
    The original question was geared at a "criminal", and many people were using the amount of people that were slain as examples of criminal behavior
    First off wraith, I understand your perspective and please don't think I'm attacking you, but when GC and I were discussing the quantification of this question, we weren't defining criminal by that same filter. We were simply comparing numbers of victims within the realm of criminal activity. If sheer numbers were the only defining characteristic of criminal then Eisenhower, Patton, McArthur, Schwartzkopf, so on and so on would have to be considered criminals for leading and commanding their troops into combat.

    I think what sets all those men apart from the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots, & Husseins of the world is provocation. When Truman gave the order to drop those bombs, he did so after Pearl Harbor and 3.5 years of fighting. Had PH and WWII never happened, Truman would never have made that order. Whereas, the Hitler group did their calling on a group of people who never attacked them. The German army was the greatest war machine on the planet, how could they be provoked to war by 6 million Jewish citizens?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #22
    general counsel Guest

    Re: Worst criminals of the 20th century?

    Regardless of what you think of the decision to drop the bomb, at least truman can ethically contend that japan attacked the us first. I know a good bit about the initial decision to drop the bomb and am happy to debate it.

    IMO, the dropping of the hiroshima bomb was ethical and justified and saved american lives. The dropping of the second bomb, in such a short time frame, which by the way was NOT specifically ordered by truman personally, is HIGHLY suspect. It might have been necessary had surrender not occured, but i think it was not needed without giving japan more time. Remember, it was only a few days and the results of the devastation of hiroshima were not as clear given less modern methods of communication.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel

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