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  • McCoy continues to annoy

    The one comment (which I've read from a handful of fans and a couple of analysts) that I just don't get is the suggestion that Gerald McCoy should be taken before Ndamukong Suh.

    Based on what?

    Go and look up their stats (I've posted them before and I don't have the time of patience to pull them again). Its not even close. Suh's production is essentially double that of McCoy.

    And what's the context of these stats? Two guys who play in the same conference against the same competition level. Two guys who are close to the same size.

    I've heard some try to argue that McCoy has better technique. I don't see it. From what I've seen, Suh has great technique for a college player. But, even if McCoy had better technique, SUH DOUBLED HIS PRODUCTION! Imagine how Suh could produce if his technique develops further.

    If the Rams ultimately decide that they need to take a QB with the first pick, I'll be disappointed, but at least I'd understand the thinking. After all, if that pick were to turn into a franchise QB, nobody would argue with it in the long run. Similarly, if the Rams trade down, I'll have misgivings, but I'd understand the logic.

    I'll tell you this, though. If the Rams stay a pick No. 1 and take McCoy over Suh, you will hear a loud sound coming from the Southeast United States.

    It will be me screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!"

  • #2
    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

    Originally posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Go and look up their stats (I've posted them before and I don't have the time of patience to pull them again). Its not even close. Suh's production is essentially double that of McCoy.

    And what's the context of these stats? Two guys who play in the same conference against the same competition level. Two guys who are close to the same size.

    I've heard some try to argue that McCoy has better technique. I don't see it. From what I've seen, Suh has great technique for a college player. But, even if McCoy had better technique, SUH DOUBLED HIS PRODUCTION! Imagine how Suh could produce if his technique develops further.
    It's not always about stats. Some people feel that McCoy plays with much better leverage and technique (Suh can play a little high at times, and if you see his highlights he does look a bit uptight when he's lined up in comparison to McCoy) and he has elite burst and explosion off the snap. However, Suh was apart of a defense that told him to read the play and then react, meaning sometimes he would just stand up and occupy his blockers. So, maybe we didn't see the bull rush or explosion from Suh in that regard more often because of the system? And yet he still got all those sacks and production. So I definitely see where you're coming from.

    I saw in another thread you criticized a poster for saying that McCoy is more refined as a pass rusher and cited Suh's twelve sacks as the reason why this was false. Well, Trevor Scott (who was taken in the 6th round in '08) had seven sacks last year and Chris Long had five. Does that mean Scott is a better pass rusher than Long? No, of course not. You can't let stats dictate the reasoning for your arguments or use it as a basis for why you are correct and everyone else is wrong. (And please don't get on me because I prefer Suh to McCoy, I'm just trying to make a point here).

    Calvin Johnson was drafted #2 overall in 2007 but he didn't have elite production until his junior (last) season. Normally you would raise questions like is he a one year wonder or something to that effect, but the reality is he was held down by horrible quarterback play and he was apart of a system that relied heavily on the option and run. Some people feel like McCoy will be a better pro because he has more untapped potential than Suh having been only a junior and they believe he would come close to Suh's production if he had stayed for his senior season. I'm a Suh fan, but it's really interchangeable between the two so you could essentially label Suh and McCoy as 1A) and 1B).
    Last edited by Bald_81; -01-26-2010, 08:11 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: McCoy continues to annoy

      Yeah.....give me Suh please. The guy is ferocious, powerful, intelligent, gets hands up, and just plain dominant. Suh wasn't exactly put in a situation where he was supposed to dominant like he did. He MADE plays and took on triple teams at times. I bet his stance was a product of not wanting to be caught out of position. That's the danger of a big explosion, you can get caught out of position or rode to the ground. Suh rushes the passer, or reads the Qb and gets his hands up while occupying blockers, shreds blockers and attacks the ball carrier when its coming, and chases plays down behind...

      I have no doubt Mccoy will become a good player, but Suh is just plain better in terms of production and ability.

      And if im correct, i believe Suh had an elite junior campaign as well recording over 80 tackles again.. its not like he came out of nowhere, he just learned and got better.

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      • #4
        Re: McCoy continues to annoy

        Frickin' hell. There is no argument agaisnt Suh. It's a bunch of bull. Ppl are just scared of the hype.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: McCoy continues to annoy

          I want the combine to be here already !

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: McCoy continues to annoy

            When you're paying a number one pick overall the big bucks, you would hope the guy can stay on the field for as many snaps as possible. There have been questions about McCoys weight and stamina - whereas there are none that I know of with Suh. I'd bet McCoy will get gassed alot sooner than Suh, meaning Suh should be on the field for more snaps over the course of an NFL season. Also one of the "NFL pundits" said that McCoy is the better pass rusher, but offered no stats or reasoning for his comment .. Could that be because Suhs stats contradict his opinion?

            Suh can and likely will develop into a one man wrecking crew with NFL coaching. We can debate QB vs Suh all the way to April, but for this fan, it's a no brainer. None of the available QBs available at this point project IMO as a "can hardly miss" franchise QB. The old saying: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" applies here. The Rams cannot afford to gamble when there is a player like Suh available .. There is every indication Suh will develop into a player that can literally take over games and disrupt opposing offensive schemes. Sure - there are no absolute guarantees with any player - but this guy is the closest thing to a sure thing the Rams will have had a shot at in a long, long, time ...

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            • #7
              Re: McCoy continues to annoy

              Originally posted by Bald_81 View Post
              It's not always about stats. .
              This is the only part of this post I read. All I can say is for the most part it is all about stats. Especially when Suh's stats are TWICE as good as Mccoys. Theres no argument here. Are you kidding me? Technique? I havent seen any better technique from Mccoy either but, if his is better than Suh's im sure NFL coaches can improve that. Suh's a beast with alot of potential that I believe will be shown when he's wearing the Rams jersey.

              Suh all the way.
              Last edited by FestusRam; -01-26-2010, 10:49 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                Suh or bust!
                LA RAMMER

                It's Jim not Chris
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HNgqQVHI_8

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                • #9
                  Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                  [QUOTE=Bald_81;328845]It's not always about stats. Some people feel that McCoy plays with much better leverage and technique (Suh can play a little high at times, and if you see his highlights he does look a bit uptight when he's lined up in comparison to McCoy) and he has elite burst and explosion off the snap. However, Suh was apart of a defense that told him to read the play and then react, meaning sometimes he would just stand up and occupy his blockers. So, maybe we didn't see the bull rush or explosion from Suh in that regard more often because of the system? And yet he still got all those sacks and production. So I definitely see where you're coming from.

                  I saw in another thread you criticized a poster for saying that McCoy is more refined as a pass rusher and cited Suh's twelve sacks as the reason why this was false. Well, Trevor Scott (who was taken in the 6th round in '08) had seven sacks last year and Chris Long had five. Does that mean Scott is a better pass rusher than Long? No, of course not. You can't let stats dictate the reasoning for your arguments or use it as a basis for why you are correct and everyone else is wrong. (And please don't get on me because I prefer Suh to McCoy, I'm just trying to make a point here).

                  .....................QUOTE]

                  I can't let this go. AV pointed out, rightfully, that Suh stats were what, double?, McCoy, and that they played in the same conference?! And you pull out the argument of Scott and Long with Scott having 2 more sacks than Long. Your right, Long is the better DE. But with Suh and McCoy we are looking at a stat sheet that is "twice" as productive in the same conference from roughly the same type position. In this context, there is no question that the stats a very pertinent.

                  Your jab at AV about "criticizing" another post is out of line and your argument is weak. If AVs critical of another post, there is ussually some merit involved in the criticism. Publicly grinding a guy in one thread about a issue from another is also inappropriate. Message him, in my experience he will respond.
                  Semper Fi!

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                  • #10
                    Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                    This argument is stimulated from people getting scared of the hype and wanting to tear down the man-beast that is Suh. MCcoy>Suh in any way, shape, or fashion makes no sense on any level.

                    "Mccoy gets better explosion.." Who the hell cares if he gets half the sacks of Suh who SUPPOSEDLY doesn't have as good explosion..

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                    • #11
                      Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                      What all of you have to realise is that people in the media and sports analyst that cover all of this Draft and college subjects right now get paid to talk about things and they have already talked about SUh, now they are just stirring the pot and saying things about McCoy, wouldn't be surprised if soon they be saying Bradford or something... but when the real Analyst come the end of March then April Mayock and the others will without a doubt be boasting SUH up since they are more true draft analysts and have a rep to uphold not just to talk at bs to stir the pot.

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                      • #12
                        Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                        Actually, all the Suh hype is getting quite annoying. Prior to that Texas game, Suh and McCoy are neck and neck.

                        The argument is that Suh relies on his power more than he has any type of finesse move, which doesn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoy, who is a damn good player and has a handful of moves more than Suh that translate over.

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                        • #13
                          Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                          Originally posted by RamsFan16 View Post
                          Actually, all the Suh hype is getting quite annoying. Prior to that Texas game, Suh and McCoy are neck and neck.

                          The argument is that Suh relies on his power more than he has any type of finesse move, which doesn't translate to the NFL as well as McCoy, who is a damn good player and has a handful of moves more than Suh that translate over.
                          Neck and neck? I thought those 12 sacks that doubled Mccoy weren't even counting the 4.5 he got against Texas alone...

                          And if you don't need to twirl, dance, and spin around why the heck would you? And for every spinning twirl dance Mccoy has Suh makes up for with more power and awareness as he consistently gets his hands up and disrupts plays every...single....down.

                          I can only name a handful of plays all year long where Suh isn't a factor..

                          Eh name Mccoy "better" if you prefer, i know come april if the Rams stay with the top pick it better be Suhs name because I live a bike ride away from the Dome, and i have a loaded BB gun that penetrates walls....

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                          • #14
                            Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                            The objective data is clear and uncontested. Suh's tackles totals are literally off the chart for a DT. His sacks totals are outstanding.

                            McCoy has good stats, but they are not even in the same ballpark as Suh's.

                            So the only arguments in favor of McCoy are subjective analyses that, quite frankly, I (and many many analysts) disagree with.

                            I stand by my statement... I will have a fit if the Rams take McCoy over Suh.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: McCoy continues to annoy

                              I feel like I don't have much to add to this thread as the sides and opinions have been hashed out pretty clearly...I do have one question though for those in favor of picking McCoy over Suh. If its so clear that Suh is doing things that won't fly in the NFL (ala Tim Tebow) why is it that scouts and draft analysts are calling him the best DT to come out in 20-30 years? Mel Kiper called him the best DT prospect he's seen in 32 years.

                              So why is that? If he's not even as good as McCoy, why would they say that?

                              Comment

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                              • dave626
                                Suh and Mccoy
                                by dave626
                                Are there any clan members who would rather take Mccoy over Suh. Im in the Bradford camp myself, but IF we swing a deal for a vet QB (a whole other thread) and are sitting there with the number one pick and the 2 DTs are there which would you take, or which have you read we are most interested in.

                                I read that Spags had dinner with Mccoy and his family (not sure where I read that), and Spags really likes him.

                                I havent read any such situation with Suh. I have read that Suh is a VERY serious guy and is dedicated to becoming a great football player, not that Mccoy isnt, just that Suh is noticeably so.

                                The only argument Ive heard that raises Mccoy over Suh is the scheme they played in, Mccoy was attacking the gap, where as Suh was a read and react guy. Is that to say Suh cant attack the gap or Mccoy cant beat the double team IDK.

                                I was hoping maybe one of you guys who are more informed than I, could shed some light on this for me. At seasons end it seemed that Suh was a lock at #1 but now, without any more games being played, compareable numbers at the combine, except of course the bench, Mccoy has somehow moved into the conversation.

                                To me, that 23 reps that Mccoy put up truely shows his lack of weight room dedication, and is a GLARING weakness. Suh AS FAR AS I KNOW has no GLARING weakness.(maybe one of you guys help me out here)

                                Id like to know what you guys think about it and as you can tell Im a Suh guy when talking about DTs.

                                GO RAMS!!!
                                -03-28-2010, 03:16 PM
                              • TakeSuh
                                How does suh even compare with mccoy
                                by TakeSuh
                                here suh 85 tackles 24 tfl 12 sacks 10 passes blocked 26 qb hurries 3 blocked kicks
                                mccoy 34 tackles 11.5 tfl 6 sacks 2 passes blocked 7 qb hurries 0 blocked kicks
                                NOW SOME PEOPLE BRING UP THAT MCCOY HAD MORE TALENT AROUND HIM........ lets compare the talent on both teams
                                nebraska:Number one in the nation in scoring defense
                                1 pass efficency defense 17 in total pass defense 7th in total defense 5th in rush defense
                                Oklahoma is all above the 40s in thesw catagories.

                                This just makes Suhs stats even better. Lets not forget they played in the same conference and agianst each other (nebraska won 10-3)

                                Texas: Mccoy 3 tackles one sack, Suh 12 tackles 7 for loss 23 qb hurries, 4.5 sacks (other d tackle for crick, the other d tackle for nebraska, set the record for 5 sacks in one game agianst baylor)

                                kansas st:mccoy 1 tackle no sacks
                                suh 9 tackles one sack 4 qb hurries 2 passes defended 3 tackles for loss.

                                Now lets get back to this guy crick, he had way better stats than mccoy too and he is only a sophmore:76 tackles 9.5 sacks 18 tfls, 4 blocked passes 16 qb hurries
                                now im going to take a bold step here: Its not the scheme mccoy plays,its just he isnt as good as SUH OR CRICK.
                                ( NOTE: I DIDNT SEE MCCOY AT ANY OF THE AWARDS CEROMONY)
                                Back to Suh. Suh had the way better combine and had a 35.5 inch veritcal, highest for a guy over 300 pounds since 2000, he had 9 more reps on the bench, practically tied with mccoy in the forty (when will a d tackle run 40 yars straight? (oh wait suh made 2 tackles this year like that......) and suh also outpreformed mccoy in the 3 cone drill and the shuffle. Add this up and you get one hell of a defensive tackle who intercepts passes, blocks kicks sacks the quarterback, racks up the tackles, pressures the qb, disrupts screens, can make tackles 10-20 yards down field, and tackle the ball carrier for a loss.

                                how could you not want suh?


                                YouTube - Ndamukong Suh







                                (ps i do not care about spelling on the internet, as long as people get the general idea...)
                                -03-04-2010, 09:45 PM
                              • 39thebeast
                                Spread and the transistion to the NFL
                                by 39thebeast
                                When you talk about the spread, most people talk about how it hurts a QBs transition to a pro system. That is true, but IMO it hurts defensive lineman just as much. Look at teams like Missouri and Texas Tech. who play with huge splits (space between lineman). Coming to the NFL you are most definately not going to see that. Both McCoy and Suh have taken advantage of this since almost all Big 12 teams. More concerning to me with McCoy because he did not dominate these guys as much as Suh did. In College especially against spread teams they are looking at smaller quicker guys, in the NFL they are looking at bigger stronger guys who are just as quick as those smaller guys. I guess this is a case against McCoy and for Suh. Even though the spread makes it tough to evaluate both the way Suh utterly dominated lower competition and ideal circumstances where McCoy was just Ok is disappointing. Suh literally quadrupled McCoys production against Texas. IMO if your going to play against those teams you better dominate
                                -02-17-2010, 10:44 PM
                              • Nick
                                DTs Suh, McCoy have ability to go No. 1 in draft
                                by Nick
                                DTs Suh, McCoy have ability to go No. 1 in draftFeb. 27, 2010
                                By Chad Reuter
                                NFLDraftScout.com
                                Tell Chad your opinion!

                                INDIANAPOLIS -- It's rare that a pair of defensive tackles get as much attention at the combine as the elite quarterbacks. Then again, Nebraska's Ndamukong Suh and Oklahoma's Gerald McCoy are rare talents.

                                Suh and McCoy are likely rated higher on many teams' boards than quarterbacks Sam Bradford (Oklahoma) and Jimmy Clausen (Notre Dame), a rarity in today's offense-happy NFL.

                                The St. Louis Rams and Detroit Lions have the top two picks, and could use McCoy and Suh on their porous defenses. But two questions remain:

                                Who is better? And is either worth taking in the top two selections?

                                Neither question is easily answered. Suh said on Saturday that he would be happy for his "good friend" McCoy if he went No. 1. But he added that he'd "definitely be disappointed with myself not getting it. I'm a competitor. I want to be No. 1. So that's what I'm going to strive for."

                                That attitude is just one of the reason teams like his game. But despite Suh finishing fourth in the Heisman voting (85 tackles, 24 for loss, 12 sacks) while riding the wave of a dominant performance against Texas in the Big 12 Championship Game, McCoy will be ranked higher on some boards because of his ability to explode into the backfield as a three-technique. His quick first step especially works well in a one-gap system where he is full-go from the snap.

                                Because he redshirted, McCoy could have entered the draft after the 2008 season and been a first-round pick. But there was little doubt after an All-American junior year (15.5 tackles for loss, six sacks) that he would take his game to the NFL. After McCoy made his decision to leave school early, Sooners head coach Bob Stoops said: "I've never been associated with a young man who was any more impressive than Gerald." That's pretty high praise, even coming from a head coach.

                                Suh can play any position on the line but is not quite as explosive off the snap. His strength and motor allow him to be extremely effective pressuring the passer (he had 26 quarterback hurries along with those 12 sacks), although there is some concern that NFL interior linemen won't give in as easily as college linemen did to his bull rush. Still, his exceptional stamina, manhandling of opponents using strong, quick hands that added to his length and closing speed make him a likely star in the NFL.

                                Suh said Oklahoma's scheme allowed McCoy to display his explosiveness more than Bo Pelini's scheme at Nebraska. The hesitation off the snap could very well be indicative of his need to handle multiple responsibilities in the Huskers defense.

                                "We played two different defenses, in my opinion. His defense was more or less, he had the freedom to...
                                -02-28-2010, 02:10 PM
                              • rob6465
                                Monster D-tackles Suh, McCoy could emerge as NFL No. 1 pick
                                by rob6465
                                No links!!!
                                -03-11-2010, 07:34 AM
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