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  • #16
    Originally posted by r8rh8rmike View Post

    It's not just rings. It's the totality of what he's been able to do, on a consistent basis, regardless of the supporting cast over 17 years that makes him the best ever.
    And the totality of what he's done (minus the rings) is not as good as some of his peers. When talking about the best player at a particular position, even one as important as QB, I don't put a lot of weight in the rings. It's a team game. The team won those rings. The QB is a significant factor, maybe even the single biggest individual factor. But he doesn't have those rings without a team.

    I guess my point is, there are probably 3 or 4 other QBs from the past two decades who, if put in the same situation as him, would have the same results, maybe better.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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    • #17
      Tom Brady is the greatest QB of all time.
      Tom Brady is not the best QB of all time.

      Allow me to explain...

      In my book, "greatest" is a term that denotes overall accomplishment, both from an individual/statistical standpoint and with respect to team success. By that measure, it would be folly to deny that a QB who has lead his team to 7 Super Bowls, won 5, and been the MVP 5 times does not deserve the title of "greatest."

      "Best," on the other hand, denotes the most skilled QB. While individual stats might be an indicator in this regard, the determination is ultimately subjective. From my viewpoint, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning and Joe Montana were all better QBs than Tom Brady. So, I don't consider him "the best."

      As an aside, in my opinion, there is only one player in the history of the NFL who was clearly both the greatest and the best at his position, and that's Jerry Rice .
      Last edited by RamFanEsq; -02-07-2017, 02:42 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by RamFanEsq View Post
        Tom Brady is the greatest QB of all time.
        Tom Brady is not the best QB of all time.

        Allow me to explain...

        In my book, "greatest" is a term that denotes overall accomplishment, both from an individual/statistical standpoint and with respect to team success. By that measure, it would be folly to deny that a QB who has lead his team to 7 Super Bowls, won 5, and been the MVP 5 times does not deserve the title of "greatest."

        "Best," on the other hand, denotes the most skilled QB. While individual stats might be an indicator in this regard, the determination is ultimately subjective. From my viewpoint, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning and Joe Montana were all better QBs than Tom Brady. So, I don't consider him "the best."

        As an aside, in my opinion, there is only one player in the history of the NFL who was clearly both the greatest and the best at his position, and that's Jerry Rice .
        I think you make some very good points.

        I'd add Jim Brown to the list of both greatest and best at his position.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by r8rh8rmike View Post

          I think you make some very good points.

          I'd add Jim Brown to the list of both greatest and best at his position.
          Brown retired before I was born, so its difficult for me to assess his skill level. Certainly, many who saw him regard him as "the best."

          As for "the greatest" RB... I might argue it was Emmitt Smith, who is the all-time career yardage leader AND won 3 Super Bowls. I could probably name 5-10 RBs, though, who were better than Smith, including two Rams, Dickerson and Faulk.

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          • #20
            Brown's place in history, like Brady's, is definitely debatable.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by r8rh8rmike View Post

              And I'll side with Kurt Warner on this:
              I would expect nothing less of Warner that to take the high road, that's the kind of guy he is. And I certainly wouldn't pretend to know how he actually feels about the subject, but even if he thought the Patriots legacy was sketchy, I do not believe he would ever come out and say it. Not his style at all.

              Faulk on the other hand, speaks more from the heart and holds nothing back.

              Either way, water under the bridge. I only gave my opinion cause the subject was raised by Curly Horns and yourself.

              If your spouse cheats on you TWICE, even if in every other way she's the greatest wife ever and the greatest mother to your kids, she's still a damn cheater and you'll never trust her again. That's where I am when it comes to the Pats.
              Clannie Nominee for ClanRam's Thickest Poster

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              • #22
                Originally posted by R8rh8rmike View Post

                It's not just rings. It's the totality of what he's been able to do, on a consistent basis, regardless of the supporting cast over 17 years that makes him the best ever.

                Hard to argue against that! Totally agree.

                TB's Stats? Suspicious situations? . . . S U P E R - B O W L S ?

                With all that surrounds an athlete, including his personal life (and a super model for a wife), his character, "plus" his professional career achievements...

                Four words summed up into one historic noun: G O A T

                Pelé
                Joselito
                Manolete
                Larry Bird
                Jerry Rice
                Usain Bolt
                Babe Ruth
                Jim Brown
                Bobby Fischer
                Muhammad Ali
                Michael Phelps
                Wayne Gretzky. Gordie Howe. Mario Lemieux. Bobby Orr.

                Etcetera. The very best, those atop the typical 'Top Ten' in their respective fields.

                Some are heralding TB as the greatest in the history of sports. So subjective to pinpoint that.

                Too many names to think of right now. I'm still trying to process SB LI. Unreal. Hard to even imagine, to witness.


                The GSOT was / is a worthy memory among the best that the NFL has seen and enjoyed. And I'm so proud to be a Rams fan for that.


                Last edited by RealRam; -02-08-2017, 11:10 AM. Reason: Tyop!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RealRam View Post


                  Hard to argue against that! Totally agree.

                  TB's Stats? Suspicious situations? . . . S U P E R - B O W L S ?

                  With all that surrounds an athlete, including his personal life (and a super model for a wife), his character, "plus" his professional career achievements...

                  Four words summed up into one historic noun: G O A T

                  Pelé
                  Joselito
                  Manolete
                  Larry Bird
                  Jerry Rice
                  Usain Bolt
                  Babe Ruth
                  Jim Brown
                  Bobby Fischer
                  Muhammad Ali
                  Michael Phelps
                  Wayne Gretzky. Gordie Howe. Mario Lemieux. Bobby Orr.

                  Etcetera. The very best, those atop the typical 'Top Ten' in their respective fields.

                  Some are heralding TB as the greatest in the history of sports. So subjective to pinpoint that.

                  Too many names to think of right now. I'm still trying to process SB LI. Unreal. Hard to even imagine, to witness.


                  The GSOT was / is a worthy memory among the best that the NFL has seen and enjoyed. And I'm so proud to be a Rams fan for that.

                  Larry Bird?

                  Um... no.

                  Try Michael Jordan. The only players I'd say could challenge him would be Wilt (best) and Russell (greatest).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RamFanEsq View Post

                    Larry Bird?

                    Um... no.

                    Try Michael Jordan. The only players I'd say could challenge him would be Wilt (best) and Russell (greatest).

                    No, no, no. Russell was a great defensive player, among the GOAT - defensively. Very, very different role and forté / forte. Russell was a center, Jordan a guard; Bird a forward.

                    It's like comparing Deacon Jones with Tom Brady. -


                    NBA wise, MJ ... I'd say it is a debatable question to consider him among Larry Bird, Magic Johnson with all of their assists, points, rebounds, etc. Their stats, fantastic finishes and incredible plays. And championships.




                    A few of Bird's own magical marvels. A sampler.






                    Brady is in a league of his own, however. Dominating it consistently.
                    Last edited by RealRam; -02-08-2017, 01:04 PM. Reason: Video selection.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by r8rh8rmike View Post

                      quite frankly, I hate the guy.
                      I don't really like the guy either and for that reason I think this will be the last I have to say on the topic:


                      Good points by everyone, especially Yo and HUb. Yeah, brady has 5 rings, but I don't think most Rams fans think much of his 1st ring. He did not do much in that game and his numbers were very pedestrian. The defense, even though they played beyond the rules and were helped tremendously by the officials, did more for that win than he did. Speaking of the defense I don't know if that point has been made. He's always had a great defense behind him. Also, he has always had an Iron Curtain for a line in front of him. Like HUb said, it's a team game and a team accomplishment.

                      You know, they never dominated in any of their SB victories and every win could have easily went the other way.. A total of 5 wins by a combined 19 points. They had never won by more than 4 until this OT win.

                      Thinking back it seems like every one of his rings has some sort of stain. Whether it be questionable officiating, video taping, stealing play signals, deflating footballs, etc. etc.

                      I guess I will just never buy into his rings as part of tangible reasoning that he is the best ever or greatest ever for that matter.



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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RealRam View Post


                        No, no, no. Russell was a great defensive player, among the GOAT - defensively. Very, very different role and forté / forte. Russell was a center, Jordan a guard; Bird a forward.

                        It's like comparing Deacon Jones with Tom Brady. -


                        NBA wise, MJ ... I'd say it is a debatable question to consider him among Larry Bird, Magic Johnson with all of their assists, points, rebounds, etc. Their stats, fantastic finishes and incredible plays. And championships
                        Jordan won 6 Championships and was MVP 6 times. He has the highest career PPG. Bird isn't even close to him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          You're right about that RFE.

                          Below, good source for career stats between Bird and Jordan, side by side...

                          Link: Landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/larry_bird_vs_michael_jordan.htm
                          Last edited by RealRam; -02-08-2017, 09:29 PM. Reason: Format

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