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Hybrid verse Conventional: Convention verses Asymmetric

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  • Hybrid verse Conventional: Convention verses Asymmetric

    Put 2018 season in the books save for the Championships and Super Bowl, but its safe to conclude the following:

    First up are the hybrid QBs in the league. Watson and Jackson thus far have followed in the foot steps of RG III, Kaepernick, Cordell Stewart, Vick, and Cunningham--they ended up with winning seasons but couldn't get it done when it really matters, the playoffs. Of that list only Kaepernick made it to the Super Bowl (and lost) and is no longer and no long relevant to the game (forget his political views--coaches see the same faults I saw when he was playing; Kaepernick can't read defenses!)

    Only R. Wilson who could be considered a semi-hybrid QB has shown any long term success but when asked to put the game on his arm, he often falls short. There was really no secret why the Squawks adopted a new game plan midseason of run, run and more run first--its because Wilson wasn't getting the job done as a true QB. His legs can buy time to allow him to throw the ball but disciplined defenses maintaining their coverage often would thwart the Squawks passing game. The early part of 2018 season bares that out. With Watson & Jackson their QB skills where questionable and when those skills where needed, they where found wanting. At least Wilson won a Super Bowl. He won one because his running ability was an added asset like Steve Young. Ironically Wilson also lost a Super Bowl because of his arm or lack of QB sills in the waning moments of a Super Bowl.


    Compare all those QBs to the ones who made it to the second round in the playoffs....Goff, Breese, Brady, Prescott, Rivers Mahomes and Luck. Prescott is a poor man's shadow of R. Wilson and is not a franchise QB on any level and was it surprising Prescott failed miserably against the Rams? NO! Lack of a ground game put the ball win or loss squarely on Prescott's shoulders and in his arm. In terms of playoff level of play it was an epic failure along with Luck and Rivers. Perhaps the problem with hybrid QBs is not their athletic talent, but their maturation in developing an understanding of the game, reading defenses, and making pin-point throws. A Goff or a Brady are not going to run for 50 yards in a game, nor is a Rivers or Breeze. They have to get better as QBs because that is all they have as assets as players they have. Its what they learn and don't learn that makes a difference in contender or pretender.

    Why do teams keep going back to the hybrid style of QBs? I really don't know. The Red Skins got one good season out of RG III then bust; The 49whiners got really one good season out of Kaepernick and bust, the same with Cunningham, and a few good seasons with Vick. My memory is foggy with C. Stewart but over all another bust at a hybrid QB. There have been other "mobile" QBs in the league that have made it but as time wears on less and less running for their lives or to make plays. Mahomes will be an interesting study. He will get older, and slower but when might that be. Or maybe one too many runs and a crushing injury from a hit brings him down to earth--only time will tell
    *****

    Its amazing the level of stupidity going in the second week of the playoffs, 2018, when it came to play selection and game planning. Colts, Chargers, and to some extent Dallas came into their games relying on "conventional wisdom" for playoff football--that is run the ball and play stout defense. With the Colts and Chargers they started each game with a very good QB and who have both proven they can win a game with their arms--so why start off trying to run the ball on teams who expect it? Their opponents had great home field advantages. Conventional wisdom says run the ball in such situations--the flips side of that coin is play stout defense and being that a run game is at best two dimensional its easier to defense against; the rules favor the passing game not the running game. An Asymmetric response is to allow a defense to press forward and drop a screen play on the defense and get the defense immediately second guessing themselves. Even a reverse or a flee flicker gimmick play could have caused confusion against the Chiefs and Patriots. Its simple logic that both the Chiefs and Patriots are where they are because they have the 1st and 2nd seats. To walk in and think your going to out physical your opponent on their home field is a stretch to begin with--setting aside the records and how those teams got their in the first place.

    Dallas/L.A. proves the point in reverse. Yes Dallas came in thinking they can move the ball on the ground against a team who allowed nearly 5yards per attempt. But Dallas failed to factor first the game is at best for them neutral ground, no home field advantage, against a team, the Rams, where there is everything to play for. Simply put 100yards rushing on Dallas' part was not going to win the Cowboys the game--they didn't even come close to 100yards. As for the Rams, the Asymmetric response was the conventional style of play--run the ball and play stout defense. Not even the Rams/Chiefs game earlier in the season where two explosive offenses took the field did the Rams go Ground Chuck but where bombs-away score happy offense. The Rams did something unexpected; Cowboys thought like Green Bay, contain the explosive big plays, keep the game manageable and close in in the 4th quarter. Fortunatelly for Dallas J. Goff was "off" with several big throws, and passes where dropped otherwise the beating they took would have been much worst because the Rams ground game was taking its toll.

    Dallas' attempt of "conventional" playoff football (run the ball & stout defense) wasn't enough--mainly because the Rams needed to mainly focus on Prescott and Zeke. And why besides some blown coverage on the Rams part a few other players made plays that lead to scores. But all in all, the Cowboy's defense couldn't stop the hemorrhage of points.

    ****

    There is no guessing where the league will go as it evolves over time, but looking back over this season and last season hybrid QBs are the bane of pro-football. Success more a factor of being in weak divisions where 6 games are up for grabs. Teams that should have been a difference in divisional standings, Jacksonville, Bangles, Titans, Giants, and Raiders & Broncos where absent. Some of those divisions didn't have hybrid QBs or a hybrid offense. Game plans like using the Wild Cat are not a fixture of pro-football where once it was tried (Miami) . Where are the Tim Tebows---no where to be found anywhere save in the bleachers watching the game that saw their skill sets wanting

  • #2
    The Panthers collapsed and missed the playoffs, but overall I wouldn't consider Cam Newton a "bust". And going back a few years, Hall of Famer Bob Waterfield was a running QB. Of course he was spelled by pocket passer Norm Van Brocklin in the championship win over Cleveland.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by cowboyhater View Post
      The Panthers collapsed and missed the playoffs, but overall I wouldn't consider Cam Newton a "bust". And going back a few years, Hall of Famer Bob Waterfield was a running QB. Of course he was spelled by pocket passer Norm Van Brocklin in the championship win over Cleveland.
      That's the problem with Cam...can you call him a hybrid or a QB...he has shown "both" tendencies where he can beat you with his arm--is legs or both. The Panther problem is the organization to start with...where are the rest of the game changers, and play makers? Their play book has evolved how? With the Panthers its defense, again in a NFL with rules favoring the passing game, and then its ball control and there you have the Panthers in a nutshell. What they need is a "Gronk" or a pair of them--Cam hasn't demonstrated a consistent deep ball passer but he is accurate short--what better position for a short pass then a TE... a better ball snagging RB would help. Almost every game one watches of theirs, defenses play it tight because Cam can run and the game plan requires Cam to run.

      I don't think Cam is in the right system--and yes there is something about the owner and the front office that keeps going back to a dry well year in and year out. Honestly, the Panthers would be better off with super fast little WR and spread defenses out running all over the place where a quick dart is damaging, and the occational deep ball but spread the defense out so much that Cam or the RB can actually run the ball

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      • Ram Dragoon
        Paralysis by over analysis
        by Ram Dragoon
        Its officially the "off season" and the experts are burning up the airways with their analysis of everything football--which today is the new breed of QB, A.K.A. Russell Wilson. Just like last season's discussion was the declining role of the RB in the NFL.

        Rather then discussing the new model QBs and their impact in today's NFL, I am more torn with the idea I should just stop watching ESPN/NFL NETWORK till next season. For it seems the NFL has gone down this road before. Remembering, long before Wilson put on a pair of cleats there we mobile QBs, notably R. Cunningham (Eagles/Vikings) K. Stewart (Steelers) and more recently M. Vick.

        Not to diminish the accomplishment of R. Wilson this past 2013 season. He even surprised me that he actually won Super Bowl 48 as a QB. But if history is any road map, these mobile QBs tend to have several good seasons and eventually fall off the map.

        Most of today's elite QBs are your conventional pocket-passers, Brady, Manning brothers, Rodgers, Breeze, etc. As much as they are a real asset to a team, they are also a real liability. Peyton's resent SB appearance proves the point. Keep the passing pocket clean, having a strong ground game, and creative plays and play calling, are game winning solutions on offense.

        Which brings the Rams into the discussion. Already another tool in DC Williams has been added to the tool box. So where else do the Rams look to maintain parity in the NFC West to gain dominance. Sadly it seems, that unless the Rams makes serious moves in FA, the Rams will be outside looking in for the next two seasons.

        Fans around Ram's nation are not entirely thrilled with the O-line this 2013 season. But we all recognize a need to be able to stretch the field to make plays and score more points. Plus a pickup or two on defense seems to be on "wish list" as well.

        There it would seem having two top draft picks available seems to be the only answer to get those elements by trading down and picking up more later round picks.

        There it seems the experts opinions seem to have I a cord. A lot of the Seagull team have lots of 4th round players on their squad.

        Perhaps it will indeed be too long an offseason--since the Rams FO and coaching staff tend to be tight-lipped as to their plans for the future
        -02-04-2014, 06:22 PM
      • Ram Dragoon
        NFC-West week 3
        by Ram Dragoon
        Again we all can say... NFC-W Division Leader... How many years have we fans been able to say that even once let alone twice in a season

        What is going on with the Cards? Still can't put a finger on it but for Dallas to rush 3 at Palmer and getting sacks and pressure...? No ground game worth mentioning in either of the Cards meetings with the Colts or Cowboys and brilliant pass plays to only sputter and stall...? It looked like the Cards where alright during the 1st Quarter in their match up with Dallas but after that it was not all down hill but off a cliff. Ok maybe in large part its the Cards OL but despite some great throws from Palmer, his read/recognize/react is off. There one bright spot is they still have a reasonable defense but not near the forum they shown in 2016

        49whiners are still the whiners, though as expected they are not the 2016 pushovers Still 0-3 at least in their losses the 49whiners had a shot to pull it out in the end. In some small part Its my belief they are over achieving based on what they have at key positions. Certainly the 49whiners greatest opponent is their constant break downs in disciple. Its 3rd week on the books but for them they will start winning games. Even though, the Ram's defense made Hoyer look like a Hall of Fame QB, looking at Hoyer's other games against the Squawks and Panthers demonstrated he is not the future for any team in the NFL, no matter how much the 49whiner FO and Coaches put lipstick on that pig. Hoyer needs perhaps one of the best QB Coaches there is in the game to get Hoyer to be an average QB...For not for the 49whiner defense their losses would look far worst. I had predicted the Rams would lose the first matchup and that it would be a trench war--damn if I wasn't completely wrong....and so happy to be wrong

        NO ground game, no Seahawk formula for success in 2017... its back to the drawing board for the Squawks when finding a way to win. They are capable of remaking themselves at this stage where it pass first then run. But the Squawk way for the last 5 years has been Run, run, and then pass playing behind a solid defensive secondary...seems most of the NFL has figured that one out. Its the same scheme on defense that other teams are attempting to use against the Squawks--set the edge with DEs to contain Wilson keeping him in the pocket, while bringing pressure up the middle. Absent of a ground game, this formula seems to be working against the Squawk's offense. When Wilson can see the field he is pretty good at delivering the ball on target, but that pressure up the middle seems to be restricting his view of the field

        What a happy surprise to see the Rams with an offense--and a concerning thought how easily other teams have scored on the Rams. More to the point how easy it is to run the ball on the Rams. Said it once and will say it again, teams will continue to rely on the ground game against the Rams till the Rams...
        -09-26-2017, 08:19 PM
      • RamWraith
        You're about to witness NFL history this season.-FOXs Sportss
        by RamWraith
        Remember how Peyton Manning mangled the Chiefs' defense in last January's playoff game? Chew on this: That offensive deluge could be repeated on a weekly basis this fall against almost any team and could even be generated by quarterbacks not named Manning. If you like your Sundays filled with gobs of passing yards and chunks of points, then you'll think you've died and gone to football heaven.

        Prepare yourself for perhaps the greatest outpouring of throwing and scoring ever. Ravens coach Brian Billick already has warned his players to brace for the oncoming revolution. "It will have as much effect on the game as anything we've done in the past five to 10 years," he told them. For sure, we haven't seen this NFL since the mid-1990s, the last time the league said wait a Dan Marino, these defensive folks are pushing the rules too far and disrupting what is designed to be an offense-dominated sport.

        The culprit or hero, depending on your football preference behind this change? Redskins cornerback Shawn Springs knows. "Thank you, Ty Law," he says with disgust. Because it was Law and his fellow Patriots maulers who beat up those delicate Colts receivers in last season's AFC title game, igniting the flames that led to this potentially high-octane result.

        A review of the final Colts possession reveals at least six downfield penalties that should have been called on New England but weren't. Even Mike Holmgren's daughters, who are casual fans, thought somebody was naughty. After witnessing how rudely the Patriots treated Manning's favorite targets, they asked, "Can they do that?"

        The answer from the NFL is no, they can't. The rulebook outlaws chucking after 5 yards, the grabbing of uniforms downfield and the hooking and redirecting of receivers in the secondary. But dastardly defensive coaches have been pushing the rules for the last half-decade, teaching their players to grab a little material here, chuck and push beyond 5 yards there, maybe hook an opponent just slightly if he has you beaten by a step. Some of this hasn't been subtle. And much of it has not been penalized.

        The Dolphins are even more prolific practitioners of rules manhandling than the Patriots; hardly anyone within the league who doesn't work in South Florida disagrees with Holmgren's assessment that "the last few years you could call holding on Miami's defensive backs almost every play."

        Receivers have become players within a real-life pinball machine, bounced around in the secondary instead of running free, which is what they are supposed to be doing thanks to the league's decision in the late 1970s to outlaw downfield chucks. Last winter, the NFL's competition committee reviewed passing and total yardage statistics from the past 14 years and didn't like the numbers. In 2003, the league produced 400.9 passing yards per game, down almost 24 from the previous...
        -08-31-2004, 03:10 PM
      • AvengerRam_old
        QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.
        by AvengerRam_old
        The media loves a running QB.

        So do the fans.

        Give them a Michael Vick, a Tim Tebow or... the most recent example, an RGIII, and they can't get enough.

        But, riddle me this, Batman... how many running QBs have won the Super Bowl?

        Let's define the term first.

        I'm not talking about "mobile QBs" who can scramble a bit or move their feet well in the face of a pass rush. I'm talking about QBs who, when pressured, will tuck the ball and run, or who have running plays frequently called for them.

        The QBs who have had the most success in the big game... Starr, Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman, Brady... none of them were or are running QBs.

        Others who you might find on "best QB" lists... Favre, P.Manning, Marino, Fouts, Brees, Warner... none of them were or are running QBs.

        And, yet... fans and the media always seem to want to declare the latest running QB as the "next wave" of the position.

        In the end, some things just don't change. The QB position is about standing in the pocket and making throws. That's what wins championships.

        Even if the running QBs get the most face time on SportsCenter, its the pocket QBs that bring home the ring.
        -09-15-2012, 11:44 AM
      • MauiRam
        Memo To the St. Louis Rams: How Enemy DCs Will Destroy Your WCO In 2010
        by MauiRam
        By David Leon

        The West Coast Offense is not my favorite offensive scheme, not by a long shot. I greatly prefer the Gilman-Coryell-Martz approach. I would also prefer the Spread, and the K-Gun, two very similar offenses. The WCO would rank just above the Erhardt-Perkins and Lombardi-Shula schemes. That's pretty low on my list of favorites.

        So why do I dislike the WCO? It's pretty easy to beat these days, that's why. Nobody plays it in the pure form that Walsh did back in 1981. The reason is simple: They can't. The pure system doesn't really work anymore. Let me give you a little history lesson about it.

        Back in the year 1981, everyone was deathly afraid of the bomb. Not the atomic bomb, the long pass. The 1978 rule changes had been in effect for three full years prior to the 49er eruption.

        Teams like the Steelers and Raiders had used the bomb with devastating effect on route to Super Bowl championships. The Cowboys were playing bombs-away also. Even the Rams, with Vince Ferragamo, were throwing the football deep.

        In those days, most defenses would concede a four yard pass and think nothing of it. They would not contest those short routes much at all.

        If you added some sophistication to your short passing game, running combination routes to produce rub-offs and so forth, you could really move the chains. You could sustain a drive for 9-12 plays, keep your defense off the field, build your QB's passer rating, and score touchdowns.

        Bill Walsh knew and understood this. He organized his entire offense around the precept that defensive coordinators would give him his short yardage, practically for free. This was especially true in the final two minutes of the game when everybody (and I mean everybody) played the prevent defense.

        The 49er offense was revolutionary for the time. Frankly, I always knew it could be stopped. I used to chastise our Ram defensive coordinators, like Fritz Shurmur, for ordering our corners to cover the 49er WRs as they ran endlessly down the field on eight and nine routes to no avail. Joe would seldom throw the football deep. Truth be told, he had a 40 yard arm. He couldn't fling it that deep with any consistency of accuracy.

        Well, it took awhile, but a defensive coordinator arose who had the nuts to play a realistic defense against the WCO. I regret to say this, but the man's name is Bill Belichick. At the time, he was the defensive coordinator for the New York Giants under Bill Parcells.

        If you will check the historical record, you will find the New York Giants were the team that most consistently vexed the 49er dynasty. They laid a devastating 49-3 route on ***** on route to their first Super Bowl victory in 1986-87.

        Jim Burk sent Joe Montana out on a stretcher in that game. They terminated the ***** shot at a three-pete in 1990-91....
        -05-14-2010, 08:20 AM
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