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The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

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  • The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

    Coaches in full bunker mentality: But facts back conspiracy theory
    By Michael Felger/ Patriots Insider
    Wednesday, September 8, 2004

    FOXBORO - The games are about to begin and the filters are on.

    That means Bill Belichick isn't about to discuss his true feelings about the NFL's new emphasis on illegal contact in the secondary. That means the coaches that brought the emphasis to the league's attention - namely St. Louis' Mike Martz and Indianapolis' Tony Dungy - aren't about to stand and be counted. That means Colts general manager Bill Polian isn't about to express his thoughts regarding the officiating in last season's AFC Championship Game.

    Dungy, as he did during a conference call, will point out he is no longer a member of the competition committee that formally ratified the emphasis - which, to put it kindly, is being obtuse. The NFL lists Dungy as the chairman of the coaches' subcommittee, although Dungy said his tenure has expired. Dungy will also fail to point out that Polian is a longstanding member of the competition committee on the executive level.

    To get everyone's true feelings, you need to go back in time. Polian, for instance, was so incensed by the officiating in the Pats' 24-14 title game win that he sent 20 plays to the league office for review. Three days later, he lashed out during an online chat. The following quote has certainly found its way into the Pats' locker room.

    ``There were seven total penalties called,'' Polian said. ``They were all penalties that occurred before the ball was snapped. . . . Those officials, in the second-most important game of the year, did not call one foul that occurred during the course of play. In the average game, there are 15.75 penalties. I will say this: (Tight end) Marcus Pollard was interfered with on third down on the last drive. He was interfered with on fourth down. Those are the facts. We did not get any memo saying they were throwing away the rule book. If that was the case, both teams should have been notified.''

    As a member of the competition committee, there's no disputing Polian was involved in pushing the new emphasis through the league. And there's also no disputing that Belichick fought against it during the owners' meetings in Palm Beach in March. In fact, Belichick blasted the new directive.

    One of Belichick's biggest problems was that the on-field officials in charge of making the call are typically lined up 25-30 yards off the line of scrimmage and therefore won't be able to accurately gauge whether contact comes at 5 yards (legal) or 6 yards (illegal).

    ``I don't really understand what we're trying to do,'' Belichick said during a coaches breakfast. ``We sat in there and watched all the film. All the coaches were in there. When you put the films on and they say, `Here's a violation,' OK, clearly it's a violation. No problem.

    ``But then they put on (other) films and say, `This is a violation, too.' Well, what did the guy do wrong?'' Belichick added. ``What do you want him to do? What is the violation? `Well, he can't do this and he can't do that.' You've got a (referee) 25 yards away trying to determine that? The guy who stands 25 yards away on the sidelines? Was there contact at 6 or 5? How can he tell? Sometimes it did happen at 6, I'll give you that. But he still has the call. Nothing has changed. A guy is going to see it better than last year? Great.''

    For all his bluster, Polian has always been quick to point out that the Pats' victory last January had nothing to do with lax rules in the secondary. Dungy has echoed similar comments. Martz, however, wasn't as clear in Palm Beach.

    ``There were some things in that game (the Pats' 20-17 win over the Rams in Super Bowl XXXVI) that probably would be related to that,'' Martz said. ``Is that why we lost the game? Probably not. Would it have affected it? I don't know. And you don't want to take away from their celebration, and their right to the championship. But the point is, there still needs to be attention in this area.''

    Martz was added to the coaches' subcommittee in February, and by the owners meetings he had compiled the film that had Belichick shaking his head. Martz claimed the Pats' beat-down of St. Louis receivers Tory Holt and Isaac Bruce started a trend across the league.

    ``That's accurate,'' Martz said. ``There was a lot of that going on in that game. And after that game, people look at it and said that they didn't realize this was permitted, and it's escalated from that. Each year it gets (worse).''

    Martz said the clutching of jerseys was perhaps the biggest issue.

    ``If Isaac wore a rubber jersey, he'd have been snapped clear to Bakersfield two years ago,'' he said.

    By now, the Pats are well aware that their opponents will come at them from every angle this season. And as it turns out, that includes the inside of the committee chambers.

    Inside job for Johnson

    It will be interesting to see what the Pats' starting lineup looks like at inside linebacker tomorrow.

    After the Pats were gashed on inside runs against Cincinnati in the second preseason game (Rudi Johnson ran 14 times for 71 yards and a 5.1-yard average in the first quarter), Belichick started Ted Johnson [news] over Roman Phifer the next week at Carolina and the Pats were considerably tighter up the middle (DeShaun Foster ran 10 times for 16 yards and a 1.6-yard average). Will that be the new depth chart heading into the season? Stay tuned.

    Phifer became the starter last year after Johnson broke his foot in the opener at Buffalo, and he had an outstanding season. Phifer remains one of the Pats' best coverage linebackers. But when it comes to plugging the interior running lanes, Johnson is still the Pats' strongest presence. And while Keith Traylor may be adequate at nose tackle, he's no Ted Washington. That means the linebackers aren't going to find themselves with as much protection as last year.

    The bottom line? Johnson's bulk is suddenly a valuable commodity again, and his ability to take on guards in the hole may earn him a return trip to the starting lineup.

    Intercepted by the Law

    You can forgive Ty Law if his eyes are as big as saucers heading into the season-opener, because if anyone has benefited from Peyton Manning's poor play in Foxboro over the years (0-5 as a starter) it's the Pro Bowl cornerback.

    Manning has thrown 15 interceptions in his five New England starts, and Law has seven of them. That's right: seven interceptions in five games. As Belichick would say, not bad. In fact, Manning has never played a game in Foxboro in which he wasn't picked off by Law, having at least one pass land safely in the cornerback's arms in each of the five games. . . .

    Key matchup: Jarvis Green vs. Jeff Saturday. Green exploited the interior of the Colts offensive line for three key sacks in last year's title game, including two in the fourth quarter to thwart a late Indy comeback. Green is once again penciled in for interior pass-rushing duty, and Saturday will certainly be on the lookout. . . .

    On the hot seat: The Pats offensive line. For first time in Belichick's tenure, the line made it through camp without sustaining a key injury or retirement. The only problem was that the unit didn't take advantage of the cohesion, giving up 11 preseason sacks and opening up only marginal room in the running game. Starting running back Corey Dillon seemed to get tackled behind the line of scrimmage as much as he did beyond it. Tomorrow night, we'll find out if the line was just saving itself for the real games.

  • #2
    Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

    Thanks for posting this, Wraith. I always get a kick out of the Pats trying to make themselves look like the victim in this case.


    • #3
      Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

      Glad to see we aren't the only ones with line problems.

      Adm. William "Bull" Halsey


      • #4
        Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

        Can't wait to see the Colts passing game light em up on Thursday night! Here's to a big game from Edgerrin James (fantasy football implications) also!


        • #5
          Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

          Dump them all in Boston Harbor, AAHHRRRRRRR !!!!!

          Maineram :ramlogo:


          • #6
            Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

            First of all, stop calling the Pats cheaters. They won according to the rules of the game. Blame bad officiating, but not the Pats. Take your whippin like a man and suck it up. It hurts to lose and we lost. Move on. This whinning about losing to the Pats sounds alot like Al Gore a.k.a Gollum, "He stole my precioussssss".

            Like the rest of you, I'm hoping that our offense can go to new heights once the refs start enforcing the rules for a change. From the pre-season games I've watched, the refs look as bad as ever. Nothin kills the joy of a game for me more than bad officiating. I wish they would find a way to really discipline, (hit them in the wallet) bad refs.


            • #7
              Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

              If we're playing a game of cards and I'm cheating but you don't know it, is it really cheating ?? Just because there defensive crap wasn't called, it's still pushing the rules of the game & they knew it. That's still cheating in my book. He took a bunch of slow DB's a made stars out of them, by his so called genius defensive mind. Seeing what he/they could get away with.

              Maineram :ramlogo:


              • #8
                Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                You guys are getting a little carried away if you think ALL of New England's defensive success comes from mugging receivers.

                The card game is a bad analogy. When you play cards, there's an implied honor system at work. Football has referrees who are entrusted to keep the game fair and hold both teams responsible for playing by the rules. It's on the referree if this is not taking place. Football players are like children. Kids will push their parents to the limit to see how far they can go and how much they can get away with. It's up to the parents to reign them in. Similarly, football players, or players in any sport, for that matter will push the rules to the limits in their effort to achieve victory. It's the refs' job to reign the players in. If this isn't happening, then you as a team and your coaching staff must take responsibility to adjust to what is going on on the field.

                You're 100% right, Coy. Take your whippin' like a man, and if you don't like it, do something about it.
                Clannie Nominee for ClanRam's Thickest Poster


                • #9
                  Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                  The Patsies exploited the system and got away with it, great. If the rules shift, just shut up and make the necessary adjustments to deal with it, that's Belichick's specialty right? All his *****ing, moaning and rationalizations make it look like he knew he was in a sense, "cheating". Guilty conscience or maybe dread for what could be coming.

                  Tonight's game is the perfect opportunity to see just how the new guidelines will be enforced. If they are strictly enforced, it's Belichicks biggest nightmare, especially against arch-rival Indy. Let's hope the officials set a good precedent tonight and make teams that skirt the rules pay.


                  • #10
                    Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                    I could create a defensive scheme that could be quite successful when my DB's could do what the patsies db's have done to have the team become GREAT. If the recievers cannot get open due to the DB's grabbing jerzees 10 or more yards done the field, then I would have one heck of a pass rush due to sending the SS, and a LB almost every down. Plain & simple. I know it's wrong, he knew it was wrong, and they knew it was wrong. Just because they got away with it doesn't mean it's not cheating !!

                    The Rams lost the Superbowl with this tactic, got whooped, and I have swallowed my 10 gallons of medicine and have moved on. But watching that AFC championship game against the Colt's last year was taking that SCHEME to new heights. All those refs should never be involved in another nfl game, agreed.
                    It still doesn't make it right for a coaching staff to coach this into thier gameplan.

                    Move up here to Patsie and and you'd know what I mean.



                    • #11
                      Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                      Originally posted by Yodude
                      Football players are like children. Kids will push their parents to the limit to see how far they can go and how much they can get away with. It's up to the parents to reign them in. Similarly, football players, or players in any sport, for that matter will push the rules to the limits in their effort to achieve victory. It's the refs' job to reign the players in.
                      See, I don't buy into that as much. Are referees also supposed to reign in coaches whose defensive scheme uses these kind of tactics? Are coaches supposed to knowingly use tactics that aren't legal because they know the officials may not penalize them for it?

                      It seems to me that you're implying that this isn't the Patriots' fault because the refs didn't call them on it. That doesn't change the fact, in my mind, that the Pats were still guilty of breaking the rules of the game. They're not being called on these tactics doesn't change their guilt in my mind.

                      This is one dead horse I hate to beat, but when someone says that the Patriots won "according to the rules of the game," I find that preposterous. The Patriots werern't playing by the rules of the game; they were playing by the rules that officials were enforcing. Two totally different things.


                      • #12
                        Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                        This is a tough issue to debate, but I can't really blame the Patsies for taking advantage of what they could get away with, especially when it came to winning championship games. The officials set the tone of a games flow in any sport and I think it's up to the coaches to adjust and take advantage, or complain like hell to make things right.

                        That being said, the Patsies won by getting away with breaking the rules. Now let's see how they do without that advantage.


                        • #13
                          Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                          Originally posted by r8rh8rmike
                          Tonight's game is the perfect opportunity to see just how the new guidelines will be enforced. If they are strictly enforced, it's Belichicks biggest nightmare, especially against arch-rival Indy. Let's hope the officials set a good precedent tonight and make teams that skirt the rules pay.
                          I gave up after one defensive series by the pats. It was clear to me that the officials have no intention of throwing penalties at the pats' DBs. They committed two PI fouls IN THE ENDZONE on consecutive plays. You would think that if they were gonna let it slide "a little", that they would at least call it in the endzone.



                          • #14
                            Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                            The Pats won according to the rules of the game. The Refs call the penalties and apparently they thought they didn't break the rules. The Refs have the option to judge according to what they think the rules are.

                            Offensive holding occurs frequently and we all see it, but it isn't often called. Are they breaking the rules, in my mind yes, but the Refs ain't callin it.

                            My question is why our DBs didn't do likewise? Why didn't we change our gameplan to accomodate the leeway the Refs gave the DBs? You can whine about this and call the Pats all kinds of names, but the fact is that they whipped us when we shoulda won, and 2 years later they win it all again. I gotta give them credit they are doin something right, and it is a lot more then DBs getting away with interference.


                            • #15
                              Re: The cheaters (Pats) are crying about Martz and company

                              The Patriots werern't playing by the rules of the game; they were playing by the rules that officials were enforcing. Two totally different things.
                              Yet, they appear the same when viewing the scoreboard.
                              The more things change, the more they stay the same.


                              Related Topics


                              • Undertaker #59
                                Being a Show-stopper is one tough task for Pats
                                by Undertaker #59
                                The St. Louis Rams, though downgraded to a "Really Good Show on Turf," still are expected to be a tall order for the battered and bruised Patriots on Sunday.

                                01:00 AM EST on Thursday, November 4, 2004

                                BY TOM E. CURRAN
                                Journal Sports Writer

                                FOXBORO -- It's said that the Rams' offensive plays are like snowflakes -- no two are ever the same. And when they string enough of those adorable little snowflakes together, a defense can find itself first snowblind and then buried.

                                Is it still "The Greatest Show on Turf" (one of the all-time great team nicknames, by the way)? St. Louis quarterback Marc Bulger said the 2004 offensive edition of the Rams probably isn't. But he does believe they're at least "A Really Good Show on Turf."

                                The Patriots, battered, bruised and bandaged (but also 6-1), have the chore of trying to stop "The Show" on Sunday. Stop it after St. Louis has had a week off to rest its bones and regroup after a stunning 31-14 loss to hopeless Miami. Stop it without the best cornerback in football the last seven seasons -- Ty Law -- and his secondary colleague Tyrone Poole. Stop it as the Rams look to rev it up and close the first half of their season on an uptick.

                                Even with the Patriots' injuries (in addition to being without Law and Poole, Corey Dillon and David Givens are 50-50 to play), this is a Class A matchup. It's the first meeting between the teams since Super Bowl 36, which was a pretty exciting game. And Bill Belichick and Mike Martz are simply the best in the business on their respective sides of the ball.

                                "Mike has as sophisticated and tough an offensive system to defend as anybody we ever played," Belichick said yesterday. "When I go into the (team) meeting today, (I) can't stand there and say, 'Here's two things we got to take care of.' There's going to be 82. And they mightdo 10 things that you didn't even talk about that you have to deal with."

                                So good are the Rams, Belichick divulged that he lets Martz's system take him to school in the offseason.

                                "Every year in the offseason, I watch them, study them, try to learn more about the passing game from them so I can implement certain aspects of it into our team. Our assistant coaches -- Josh (McDaniels, quarterbacks coach), Brian (Daboll, receivers coach) and Charlie (Weis, offensive coordinator) -- we spend time in the offseason watching them throw because, in all honesty, nobody throws it better."

                                Some of the usual culprits are still with the Rams -- wide receivers Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce, running back Marshall Faulk and tackle Orlando Pace. But Bulger is new to the Patriots, and St. Louis also has added burly and versatile running back Stephen Jackson.

                                The Patriots played the Rams twice in 2001. The first...
                                -11-04-2004, 05:46 AM
                              • Curly Horns
                                Spygate to Deflategate: RAMS EXCERPT
                                by Curly Horns
                                This is an excerpt pertaining to the Rams from ESPNs article titled:

                                From Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and New England Patriots apart

                                Then Specter turned to the alleged videotaping of the Rams' walk-through. Walsh confessed that after the Patriots' team picture, he and at least three other team videographers lingered around the Louisiana Superdome, setting up cameras for the game. Suddenly, the Rams arrived and started their walk-through. The three videographers, in full Patriots apparel, hung around, on the field and in the stands, for 30 minutes. Nobody said anything. Walsh said he observed star Rams running back Marshall Faulk line up in an unusual position: as a kickoff returner. That night, Walsh reported what he had seen to Patriots assistant coach Brian Daboll, who asked an array of questions about the Rams' formations. Walsh said that Daboll, who declined through the Patriots to comment for this story, drew a series of diagrams -- an account Daboll later denied to league investigators.

                                Faulk had returned only one kickoff in his career before the Super Bowl. Sure enough, in the second quarter, he lined up deep. The Patriots were ready: Vinatieri kicked it into a corner, leading Faulk out of bounds after gaining 1 yard.

                                During the walk-through, the Rams had also practiced some of their newly designed red zone plays. When they ran the same plays late in the Super Bowl's fourth quarter, the Patriots' defense was in position on nearly every down. On one new play, quarterback Kurt Warner rolled to his right and turned to throw to Faulk in the flat, where three Patriots defenders were waiting. On the sideline, Rams coach Mike Martz was stunned. He was famous for his imaginative, unpredictable plays, and now it was as if the Patriots knew what was coming on plays that had never been run before. The Patriots' game plan had called for a defender to hit Faulk on every down, as a means of eliminating him, but one coach who worked with an assistant on that 2001 Patriots team says that the ex-Pats assistant coach once bragged that New England knew exactly what the Rams would call in the red zone. "He'd say, 'A little birdie told us,'" the coach says now.

                                In the meeting in Specter's office, the senator asked Walsh: "Were there any live electronics during the walk-through?"

                                "It's certainly possible," Walsh said. "But I have no evidence."

                                In the coming years, the Patriots would become baffled by those persistent rumors, which were mostly fueled by a pre-Super Bowl 2008 Boston Herald report -- later retracted -- that a team videographer had taped it. Some media outlets -- including ESPN -- have inadvertently repeated it as fact. According to Patriots spokesman Stacey James, "The New England Patriots have never filmed or recorded another team's practice of walkthrough. ... Clearly...
                                -09-08-2015, 10:14 AM
                              • Curly Horns
                                The media created myth of SB36
                                by Curly Horns
                                The media crucified Martz after SB36. Martz was the scapegoat for their inept analysis and belichick was made out the genius. Many fans jumped on this bandwaggon and are still riding it today.

                                This is the same media that never mentioned the officiating at all. Not a word - Not a peep. NOTHING!! And yet fans buy into their crap about Martz being out coached. It's preposterous to say the least.

                                For those fans who do not know the game and who have seemingly forgot the events leading up to and the game itself; let's recap.

                                The Rams and patriots played during the regular season at Foxborro. The Rams prevailed but it was a close game.

                                The oddsmakers inflated the odds and made the Rams a huge favorite before the start of SB36. This was done to increase the amount of wagering. The Rams were not as big of favorite as the oddsmakers made them out to be. The oddsmakers were simply trying to increase the volume of wagers.

                                Leading up to the game Martz said that he thought the game would be close. He indicated that belichick was the brightest defensive mind in the game. He stated that the belichick coached defense would be and had been the Rams offense's toughest test.

                                Not many seem to remember these comments from Martz. The stage was set by the brightest offensive mind giving the brightest defensive mind his due and stating it would be a close hard fought game.

                                There was no posturing by Martz that his team was vastly superior to the pats. That existed only in the minds of fans and much of the media.

                                Well as we all know the game was close. Very close. Certainly the belichick defense was well schooled in playing on the edge of the rules and the officials were intent on letting them play their game.

                                Martz stayed true to his form. He was an aggressive play caller who went with the pass first philosophy. Attack, attack and attack again. This was Mike Martz and this was his Rams team. Running against the pats defense was at a premium, just as it still is today.

                                The Rams made some mistakes during the course of the game and Wilkins missed a FG. Asside from the mistakes and the poor officiating, via the non-calls, against the pats defense, the game boiled down to the pats final drive.

                                Redmond did not get out of bounds, to stop the clock, but the refs indicated otherwise. Lovie blitzed only one time, and they had Brady sacked, but he got away with intentional grounding.

                                Well as we all know - The rest is history. The game was close and hard fought just as Martz predicted. And yet fans, who do not listen and do not understand the game, perpetuate the media created myth that belichick was a genius and Martz was a goat.

                                -01-11-2006, 10:25 AM
                              • RamWraith
                                Martz doesn't believe spying charges
                                by RamWraith
                                By Mike Klis
                                The Denver Post
                                Article Last Updated: 02/21/2008

                                INDIANAPOLIS If it matters, Mike Martz doesn't believe the New England Patriots spied on his walkthrough practice prior on the eve of Super Bowl XXXVI.

                                Interested in the investigation. But not yet convinced he was one of the NFL's most notorious victims.

                                Martz was head coach of the St. Louis Rams, the juggernaut of the 2001 season that was shocked by the heavily underdog Patriots, 20-17.

                                "Maybe it helped them, maybe it didn't," Martz said Thursday at the NFL Scouting Combine he is attending as the San Francisco *****' new offensive coordinator. "But you'll never be able to measure that if they did do that. You're assuming they did that and I choose to believe they didn't do that."

                                The Pats won two more Super Bowls, but have since been caught illegally videotaping opposing coaches' signals by the league. While that transgression cost the Patriots and coach Bill Belichick a combined $1.25 million in fines and a first-round draft pick, a more damaging accusation could be a Boston Herald report that the Pats illegally taped the Rams' final walkthrough before their Super Bowl meeting.

                                The league is negotiating with Matt Walsh, who formerly worked in the Pats' video department until he was fired in 2003. The league wants to know if the Rams' walkthrough was taped, if it was Walsh who taped it, and if he still has that tape.

                                "Of course, I'm interested," Martz said. "I was involved in that. It was my responsibility. I was responsible for a lot of people in that game. I am interested. But I'm going to assume it's totally false. Until they prove otherwise, there's not much to talk about."
                                -02-21-2008, 02:26 PM
                              • RamWraith
                                Stuck in the middle
                                by RamWraith
                                Rams can light it up, but they're not super
                                By John Powers, Globe Staff | November 5, 2004

                                The last time we saw the guys in the horned helmets, they were standing numbly in Nawlins while their star-spangled rivals carried Adam Vinatieri off the Superdome floor. The Patriots have earned another set of championship rings since then and strung together a 21-game winning streak. And the St. Louis Rams have gone on a jolting carnival ride that still hasn't quite leveled off.

                                Since they lost to New England on the final play of Super Bowl XXXVI 2 1/2 years ago, the Rams have gone 7-9 (after starting 0-5) and 12-4, losing to Carolina (remember them?) in double overtime in the playoffs. Now, they're 4-3 and coming off an embarrassing loss to the league's worst team.

                                So, whatever happened to the "Greatest Show On Turf"?

                                "I don't know what you would call us now, but we are still pretty good on offense," said Marc Bulger, who'll be calling signals for his shoulder-padded track team when St. Louis hosts the Patriots Sunday afternoon.

                                The Rams now may be merely "The Really Good Show," as Bulger acknowledges, but they still have enough flash and dash to dazzle a banged-up New England secondary. "St. Louis is explosive whenever you play them," said Patriots coach Bill Belichick. "First week or 10th week."

                                The Rams can also be implosive, having given up 34 points to Atlanta, 28 to New Orleans, 27 to Seattle, and a shocking 31 to a Miami bunch that has averaged barely a dozen a game. Which is why the Rams aren't talking about any Patriotic payback this weekend. They're just trying to stay on top of the NFC West and make the playoffs.

                                "Payback really isn't an issue with me," said Rams coach Mike Martz. "We are just trying to keep our head above water, so I just don't look at it like that. If we were better, then maybe I would consider that."

                                The Rams are in transition now, somewhere between where they were three years ago and where they'd like to be again. "We are trying to get back there," said Martz. "We are not there. We are a fairly good team. I think we will eventually be a real good team, but we are a ways away from being there."

                                Two games -- the crazy victory over the Seahawks and the inexplicable loss to the Dolphins -- tell the tale of a team betwixt.

                                St. Louis, trailing, 27-10, at Seattle with fewer than six minutes to play, coolly ran off 23 points, tying the game with eight seconds left in regulation and winning in overtime on a 52-yard pass from Bulger to Shaun McDonald. "That really sums up how explosive they are," said Belichick, "and how many points they can score in a hurry."

                                The Rams can also give up a lot in a hurry -- 17 in the fourth quarter to the Dolphins, who...
                                -11-05-2004, 04:21 PM