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  • A couple of questions...

    First, let me say this isn't a bashing thread. It's too easy to kick a horse when he's down and I think there are quite a few easy targets on the Rams right now.

    However, just like I didn't get too excited about last week's win against Arizona I'm not going to get too critical of today's loss against Atlanta.

    The first question I have, related to the overall coaching and personnel management is related to the qb. The argument that some, including myself, have been making in defense of keeping Warner, is that his overall support was questionable in a lot of cases. Bulger has proven to be no more effective in my opinion, but on the whole a lot luckier than Warner. It's not an attack on Bulger, just an observation that numerous times Bulger has been bailed out of his mistakes whereas Warner was not. The interception return for a td today is a good example of this.

    Some are coming around to the fact that playcalling, personnel and opponents have an effect on how well a qb succeeds. Marc Bulger's 1-3 in his last 4 starts now, and coming up on a tough schedule. If the Rams continue to stuggle under his leadership will he be cast off?

    Secondly, I thought it a crazy idea at the time, but last year more than one person suggested that we keep Lovie and get rid of Martz. On the surface this seems like an outlandish, extreme course of action. However, with the Rams lack of turnovers and the Bears relatively quick success this may not have been such a bad idea. Lovie has given Thomas Jones new life, his defense is creating turnovers and scoring points and all in all doing rather well for having a new head coach. In addition, Martz doesn't seem to be progressing as a coach in a lot of areas and if it's already been established that the Rams can't win the big one unless Martz makes some changes in philosophy, is it wise to keep him?

  • #2
    Re: A couple of questions...

    It wasn't the problem of the QB yesterday.

    The running game was non-existent which caused the Rams to call the plays like they did. I mean, what's the difference between 3rd and 8 running the ball or 3rd and 10 with two incompletions?

    The Bears are 1-1 just like the Rams. I didn't see anything real special in the Bears other than they looked really fired up to play the Packers and Green Bay looked as flat as the Rams.

    If Bulger dosen't win, sure he'll be cast off. Just like the rest. However, it's getting very obvious that Pickett and DLew aren't the answer at DT. That I hang on Armey and the Front Office.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: A couple of questions...

      Its amazing... Bulger has a 95.5 QB rating (102.2 yesterday) and the Warnerites want to reopen the Bulger/Warner debate.


      Open your eyes. Bulger's not the problem.

      And don't give Lovie too much credit. He had a good Sunday, but he'll have some bad ones too.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A couple of questions...

        Originally posted by Avenger
        Its amazing... Bulger has a 95.5 QB rating (102.2 yesterday) and the Warnerites want to reopen the Bulger/Warner debate.
        Now wait a minute AR...first off, you're right, Bulger is about 9th on our list of problems right now, far from a priority, if a problem at all in the grand scheme of things.

        But don't start with the Warnerite name calling. Let me remind you who was the first to bring up the Giants QB...
        Originally posted by Avenger
        That's a QB rating of 95.5 (and, since it is inevitable that someone will bring that up, that is higher than the 89.2 rating that the Giants QB has).
        This was the first post in your "Don't Blame Bulger" (which I agree we shouldn't). That thread was opened minutes after the game ended. You opened that can, not any of the "Warnerites". Had someone else started it, I could see the response. However, don't be surprised when you launch the first volley only to see pro-Warner response.
        The more things change, the more they stay the same.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: A couple of questions...

          I posted that because I knew someone would bring up Warner. Perhaps that was a bad move by me, but do you honestly believe that if I had not made that preemptive comment that nobody would be trying to use the Rams' loss as a basis to revisit the Bulger/Warner debate?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: A couple of questions...

            It really dosen't matter to me personally anymore about Warner/Bulger. It's a non-issue. There were locker room factors that we as fans don't know about and don't really need to know.

            However, Bulger played a good game but just like Warner in this offense, mistakes by the QB are GLARING. That's why interceptions are not as big of a deal as fumbles. Yesterday's deal with Bulger in the end zone is as close to a fumble as you can get without it being one. Maybe he should have thrown the ball a little sooner knowing he was backed up in the endzone and pressure was coming. Pressure was coming all day.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: A couple of questions...

              Originally posted by moklerman
              Bulger has proven to be no more effective in my opinion, but on the whole a lot luckier than Warner.
              At least during the 1st 2 games this year, I'd say MB has reason to put some money on the lottery. In fact, I'd say the refs have tried to keep the scales balanced for the most part.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: A couple of questions...

                I think it's time to slip Tommy Polley back into the starting strong side backer position. Chillar made some plays in the first game, but I don't recall him doing anything in the last game.

                I was excited to see the Rams shake up the linebackers, but Tommy Polley has shown he's a playmaker in the past. It might be time to think about making the switch.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: A couple of questions...

                  Originally posted by moklerman
                  If the Rams continue to stuggle under his leadership will he be cast off?
                  Probably not until after next season. I imagine by signing Chandler and drafting Smoker, the Rams have at least considered the idea that Marc Bulger might not work out. If that's the case, they're probably counting on Chandler to be a filler QB if Bulger can't even do that while they try and develop Smoker.

                  But remember, it wasn't until Warner faltered (again, for whatever reason) and was injured that we even heard of Marc Bulger, and even after Warner's 2002, he got the starting job back and lost it because of a deadly mix of injury and below average to average play. Who knows how 2003 would have shaped out if Warner hadn't been injured in Week 1. But I would think if Bulger has a sub-par season then the Rams will probably begin to formulate a possible contingency plan, but still try and depend on him as the starter in 2005 and see how he does.


                  Originally posted by moklerman
                  if it's already been established that the Rams can't win the big one unless Martz makes some changes in philosophy, is it wise to keep him?
                  Apparently our performances against the Cards and Falcons is not enough to get too excited or critical about, but were enough to support the theory that we should have kept Lovie and dumped Martz. Can't say I'm following that logic. If it's not important enough to get really critical or excited, I'm not sure there's enough there to support your theory either. But this isn't really the point...

                  To answer your question, at least with my own opinion, changing the reigns to another coach because Martz hasn't been able to win the big one seems a bit drastic, especially since this entire offense is built to Martz's specifics. What new coach is going to come in and be able to direct this offense to the efficiency that Martz has? A new coach would mean personnel and major philosophy changes, which would mean a pretty big overhaul with players. I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: A couple of questions...

                    Now wait a minute AR...first off, you're right, Bulger is about 9th on our list of problems right now, far from a priority, if a problem at all in the grand scheme of things.
                    But don't start with the Warnerite name calling. Let me remind you who was the first to bring up the Giants QB...
                    This was the first post in your "Don't Blame Bulger" (which I agree we shouldn't). That thread was opened minutes after the game ended. You opened that can, not any of the "Warnerites". Had someone else started it, I could see the response. However, don't be surprised when you launch the first volley only to see pro-Warner response.
                    Thank you for calling a spade a spade. I can't speak for anyone else, but the last thing on my mind after this game was another Warner/Bulger comparison. It wasn't until that snide remark that I felt compelled to respond. If you're gonna push my buttons, don't be surprised when I push back.

                    As far as Bulger's performance yesterday, I didn't put any blame on him whatsoever. I'd be the biggest hypocrite out there if I blamed him for a loss when the rest of the team played the way they did. For those with the short memories, I constantly harped on the extenuating circumstances regarding Warner's losses, why on earth would I not acknowledge that those factors are still playing a part? I do find it somewhat humorous that there are those that denied those circumstances before, but are trying to hang their hats on them now. :king:
                    Clannie Nominee for ClanRam's Thickest Poster

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: A couple of questions...

                      Originally posted by AvengerRam
                      I posted that because I knew someone would bring up Warner. Perhaps that was a bad move by me, but do you honestly believe that if I had not made that preemptive comment that nobody would be trying to use the Rams' loss as a basis to revisit the Bulger/Warner debate?
                      No, you've made a fair assumption. These two will forever be tied together. Mention that one has a size 11 shoe, and someone will say the other has a size 12. One prefers Coke, the other Pepsi.
                      X-ite: "I heard QB X likes vanilla"
                      Z-ite: "Oh yea, well, QB Z likes chocolate"
                      X-ite: "Yea, but QB X invented chocolate"
                      Z-ite: "But vanilla is stupid and so is QB X"
                      X-ite: "you're stupid"
                      Z-ite: "You're mama's stupid"
                      so on and so forth...the debate will never fade.
                      The more things change, the more they stay the same.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: A couple of questions...

                        What new coach is going to come in and be able to direct this offense to the efficiency that Martz has? A new coach would mean personnel and major philosophy changes, which would mean a pretty big overhaul with players. I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble.
                        Is it worth the trouble...? Isn't winning a Super Bowl worth whatever trouble it takes? As far as a different coach running the offense as "efficiently" as Martz...well, I don't know if that's the word I'd use to describe how Martz runs the offense. And, yes a new coach would mean personnel and philosophy changes. That's the point.

                        Apparently our performances against the Cards and Falcons is not enough to get too excited or critical about, but were enough to support the theory that we should have kept Lovie and dumped Martz.
                        If you actually read my post and honestly think this is what I was saying then it really doesn't matter what I write. My questions aren't based on the first two games this year. My questions come AFTER the first two games but there is a difference.

                        The Lovie question is just something that I had never considered very seriously and after his early success decided to re-introduce the question started by others last year.

                        And, just like any other thread that has "qb A" mentioned with "qb B", people instantly "assume" what the thread is about and launch into their passionate defense of one or the other. But my question isn't an argument of which one is better than the other.

                        My point is about the coaching and decisions related to the qb position. The Rams already got rid of one qb, who some of us argued wasn't the root of our problems...just like yesterday. The coaching, gameplanning, personnel, o-line, defense and rookies who aren't quite ready yet were all more responsible for what happened than the qb. Now, apply that to what happened between 2002-2003 and you can see why some of us were so vehemantly defending our previous qb.

                        But PLEASE don't think I'm starting a "vs." thread. My questions are about coaching. One hypothetical (keeping Lovie) and one phylosophical (Coaching and management building a foundation for struggles).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: A couple of questions...

                          Originally posted by moklerman
                          Is it worth the trouble...? Isn't winning a Super Bowl worth whatever trouble it takes? As far as a different coach running the offense as "efficiently" as Martz...well, I don't know if that's the word I'd use to describe how Martz runs the offense. And, yes a new coach would mean personnel and philosophy changes. That's the point.
                          Unless you're Miss Cleo or have some kind of psychic connection, there's absolutely no guarantee that a coaching change is going to bring about a Super Bowl win. For all we know, it could bring about mediocrity or even horrible results. I'm almost positive it would for the first season or so as the new coach tries to reshape the team.


                          Originally posted by moklerman
                          And, just like any other thread that has "qb A" mentioned with "qb B", people instantly "assume" what the thread is about and launch into their passionate defense of one or the other. But my question isn't an argument of which one is better than the other.
                          And my response wasn't an argument of that nature, either. The point I was trying to make by mentioning Warner was that the Rams had no real young guy that they were trying to build up as a replacement. They didn't really anticipate needing one. Bulger was their third string, but I don't recall that it was a project that was going to result in a future starter. Perhaps I'm wrong, though.

                          Anyways, Warner was expendable because a viable replacement was available. Do we have such a replacement? I fear the team would be attending Chandler's funeral had he been behind center against Atlanta, and Smoker probably isn't ready to take over - then again, we were probably saying the same thing about Bulger prior to the 2002 game against Oakland. Regardless, I was trying to support my opinion that Bulger wouldn't be "cast off" until at least the end of 2005 by bringing up Warner's situation.


                          Originally posted by moklerman
                          But PLEASE don't think I'm starting a "vs." thread. My questions are about coaching. One hypothetical (keeping Lovie) and one phylosophical (Coaching and management building a foundation for struggles).
                          I don't think you started a versus thread. I tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: A couple of questions...

                            The bottom line on all these concerns being brought up, is the coaching staff really focusing the opponent. Two weeks in a row, Martz has been somewhat out coached. With Arizona Dennis Green showed up with a running attack, and this week Jim Mora just sent Warren Dunn and Michael Vick on the prowl.
                            The whole deal is we can put blame on anyone person. But the reality is everyone is accountable. And like in business the owner is ultimately responsible. In Pro Football the Coach is the last resort to a poorly planned gameplan.
                            The whole deal is that whether Bulger or Marshall or the Defensive unit plays well or not. Martz has recently been out planned and he has made minimal adjustments. Atlanta exposed some key areas. And the schedule is not going to get any easier. We could be seeing Mike Martz's first 5-11 or 4-12 season as a head coach. The Question is How will he be able to handle the pressures of a season going south.
                            We all want this team to win on every sunday. But it is not to happen the way this team is being coached. The players are one part of the scheme but if the coaching staff is not calling the right plays to counter the opponent. We could be in for a long season.
                            PS Dennis Green and Mike Holmgren do not have any sympathy for us.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: A couple of questions...

                              Unless you're Miss Cleo or have some kind of psychic connection, there's absolutely no guarantee that a coaching change is going to bring about a Super Bowl win. For all we know, it could bring about mediocrity or even horrible results. I'm almost positive it would for the first season or so as the new coach tries to reshape the team.
                              You're right that there are no guarentees BUT, there are probabilities. Let's use Dave Wannstedt as the example rather than Martz. Martz is just too much of a hot topic for Rams fans to be completely objective in my opinion.

                              So, you've got Dave coaching a Dolphins team that is generally around 10 wins a season. The Dolphins rarely advance in the playoffs under his leadership but you pretty much know what you've got with him. The Dolphins are going to have a good to great defense, that being Dave's specialty and where his roots lay. He is probably a lot better co-ordinator than head coach. His team is mired in a qb controversy created by himself. His team has made questionable personnel moves more than a few times and no matter how many changes they make, things always seem to come out the same for the Dolphins.

                              Some of you may have been aware of all of this but I wanted to preface my question with a little background for those who may not have been.

                              Now, the million dollar question: Would YOU fire Dave Wannstedt in an attempt to improve the Dolphins?

                              Comment

                              Related Topics

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                              • AvengerRam_old
                                Don't Blame Bulger
                                by AvengerRam_old
                                This team has some problems. Problems that must be addressed if this team is going to have any success this year.

                                But, for all the offseason talk, one thing that must be acknowledged at this stage is...

                                MARC BULGER IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

                                After two games, here are Bulger's stats:

                                65 attempts, 47 completions, 72.3% completions, 557 yards, 2 TDs, 2 Ints.

                                That's a QB rating of 95.5 (and, since it is inevitable that someone will bring that up, that is higher than the 89.2 rating that the Giants QB has).

                                Marc Bulger is an above average NFL QB, and recent years have demonstrated that a team can win with less.

                                So give Marc credit for what he has done, and lets focus on the real problems with this team.
                                -09-19-2004, 01:36 PM
                              • RamDez
                                Bulger is QB of choice in St. Louis
                                by RamDez
                                Bulger is QB of choice in St. Louis
                                Low-key personality belies determination to lead Rams
                                COMMENTARY
                                By Dan O'Neill
                                NBCSports.com contributor
                                Aug. 10, 2004

                                He is a Marc-ed man now. The St. Louis Rams, at least those grazing on the offensive side of the ball, officially will come under his care and direction this winter. Lock, stock, and Bulger.

                                “I really don’t think things have changed,” Marc Bulger said. “It is challenging sometimes; you get opportunities that you want to do. But you have to stick to who you are and what will make you happy.”

                                The Rams have done their part to make Bulger happy. In April, coach Mike Martz declared Bulger would be his starting quarterback this season. Shortly thereafter, the organization made it crystal clear, giving Bulger a four-year, $19.1 million contract and releasing former league MVP Kurt Warner. Warner resides in New York now, trying turn the pumpkin back into a coach, keeping the seat warm while The Apprentice, Eli Manning, gets his feet wet.

                                Undisputed No. 1 this season
                                For the first time since he came off the bench and played surprisingly well for an injured Warner in 2002, Bulger will enter a season as the Rams’ undisputed heavyweight quarterback, no controversy, no questions asked. He will call his signals without Warner — literally and figuratively — looking over his shoulder. Or as offensive lineman Andy McCollum put it: “We’re here to protect Marc. He’s the man now.”

                                In turn, “the man” has looked the part. Bulger is throwing short, intermediate, and long passes with precision and purpose, he is making the right reads, choosing the right receivers. He threw for an NFC-leading 3,845 yards and completed 63 percent of his passes last season. He was named the Pro Bowl MVP when the season was over. All that was before he officially had the job. Now that he is entitled, he is infuego.

                                “I’ve very pleased with him,” Martz said. “He’s been consistently very good. He is markedly improved from a year ago, no question about it, in terms of just getting the speed of seeing things and getting the ball to the right guy.”

                                Bulger will tell you the presence of Warner wasn't negative. At 27 years of age, Bulger is modest and respectful, qualities that endear him to his teammates. He insists he appreciated Warner, tried to emulate him, learn from him, lean on him. But the absence of Warner World should make for a significantly less stressful environment. The new second-in-command at the quarterback position in St. Louis is 38-year old Chris Chandler, an experienced hand who has no delusions at this stage of his career. Chandler won't be standing on the sideline with a helmet in hand and a hankering to prove he can still pilot the ship. He is a walking insurance policy, and the deductible will only be exceeded on an emergency basis.

                                Outside distractions avoided
                                There is no media...
                                -08-10-2004, 02:39 PM
                              • RamsInfiniti
                                For the Bulger haters ....
                                by RamsInfiniti
                                Rams quarterback Bulger absorbs unfair criticism
                                By Bryan Burwell
                                ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
                                11/03/2008

                                In victory or defeat, Marc Bulger and Steven Jackson are always the most interesting guys in the Rams locker room. Bulger, the quarterback, is the conservative, calculated introvert; Jackson, the power running back, is the definitive swashbuckling extrovert. Bulger often dishes details in quiet moderation, dodging around controversy like a nimble dancer. Jackson often hurls himself directly into the teeth of a maelstrom with bold proclamations.

                                But in the eyes of some St. Louis Rams fans, these two conflicting personalities will always be one and the same. In good times and bad, in victory or defeat, Bulger and Jackson wear the dreaded labels of The Replacement Players, never to be judged for who they are, but always for who they are not.

                                Bulger isn't Kurt Warner.

                                Jackson isn't Marshall Faulk.


                                On Sunday afternoon at the Edward Jones Dome, they both heard and felt the wrath of those unsatisfied fans throughout the course of a 34-13 loss to Warner's Arizona Cardinals. Any time the Cardinals come to town, Bulger knows what to expect. He is going to be measured (and drawn and quartered, too) by the scoreboard and the stat sheet comparison with the Super Bowl hero he replaced six seasons ago.

                                "If you want to put the blame on me (for why the offense struggled), well, I don't care," Bulger said in a quiet but combative voice. "Oh, I know everyone's going to say it's my fault. They're going to say I'm throwing off my back foot or crap like that. But you know what? I don't care what people say. All I care about are what my teammates and my family says. Everyone else? I don't give a damn."

                                After seven years of this never-ending Bulger vs. Warner saga, the Rams QB no longer concerns himself with trying to win an unwinnable public debate. Those who love Warner will always love Warner, and bash Bulger. He gets that better than most. He knows that nothing shy of five Super Bowls and a Hall of Fame induction will get the haters off his back. He also knows that games like this will supply ammunition to those who always seek to praise his good friend at his expense.

                                So as he stood in front of his locker stall, he prepared for the barrage because he knew there was no question that the former understudy was outplayed by his old mentor. Warner threw for more yards (342 to 186), had a better completion percentage (67 percent to 48 percent), a higher pass-efficiency rating (120.0 to 60.9), and was never harassed or frustrated by the pass rush like Bulger was. Warner is running one of the NFL's most potent offenses, and Bulger is laboring with one of the league's worst outfits (28th).

                                On Sunday, that Rams offense turned from bad to worse. Within the first few minutes, Bulger was stuck with no running...
                                -11-03-2008, 07:19 AM
                              • RamWraith
                                The ball's in Bulger's court
                                by RamWraith
                                BY JIM THOMAS
                                Of the Post-Dispatch
                                Friday, Aug. 27 2004

                                For a split second, it had the nightmare feel of Rodney Harrison crashing into
                                the knee of Trent Green five Augusts ago in the Dome.

                                This time, Marc Bulger was writhing in pain on the practice field at Western
                                Illinois University, holding his right (throwing) arm after getting the worst
                                of a collision that also involved offensive tackle Greg Randall and defensive
                                end Leonard Little.

                                Within minutes, it was apparent that Bulger was OK. But at first, no one knew
                                for sure. The lasting memory of that incident wasn't the collision, or the
                                apparent injury. It was of how quiet it got on the practice field. The anxious
                                glances toward Bulger as he was examined by the medical staff. The nervous
                                shuffling by teammates.

                                The silence was immediate, and total. Except, that is, for wide receiver Torry
                                Holt.

                                "Who did it? Who did it?" he said. And you couldn't really tell if Holt was
                                joking. The entire scene was a telling indicator of how the Rams feel about
                                their starting quarterback.

                                "I think they have a great deal of respect for him," coach Mike Martz said. "I
                                think his humility is something that is noticeable for them. And then, of
                                course, the other part of it is performance. In really difficult situations, he
                                has come in and performed very well."

                                Perhaps the most difficult situation is about to unfold for Bulger. For the
                                first time since 1998, the Rams are beginning a football season without Kurt
                                Warner as their starting quarterback. The same Kurt Warner who won two
                                regular-season MVP awards, as well as being named the most valuable player of
                                Super Bowl XXXIV against Tennessee five seasons ago. The same Warner who still
                                has the highest career passer rating in league history (97.2), despite
                                struggling the past two seasons.

                                It's a tough act to follow. No one has ever put up the kind of numbers Warner
                                posted over a three-year period between 1999-2001.

                                It would be understandable if a part of Bulger always felt pressured to measure
                                up to Warner. Understandable, but not necessary.

                                "I'd be disappointed in Marc if he ever felt that way," Martz said. "He
                                certainly doesn't need to do that. He's Marc. He needs to have his own respect
                                for who he is, and what he's capable of doing for this football team. Nobody's
                                going to ask him to be an MVP. All he's got to do is come out and move this
                                team and win like he's done in the past."

                                Win he has. Bulger's 18-4 regular-season record makes him the most successful
                                active quarterback in the NFL (with a minimum of 10 starts), with...
                                -08-29-2004, 10:58 AM
                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Bulger or Bust?
                                by Guest
                                Let me start off from a quote from VegasRam which is truely factual:

                                "We yap and yap and yap about all our other problems, and while that's valid, it's amazing how a good QB reduces their significance. Look at the Packers the other nite. Played like crap, (175 yards in penalties alone), but won with what I consider an excellent QB, against a good D.

                                I like Bulger a lot, and think he's a good QB. Make that was. He flat doesn't have it anymore for whatever reason - mental and/or physical.

                                The Colts floundered for years, until guess what? Same with Dallas. Same with Arizona. Same with Pittsburgh. Same with the Saints. Same with the Giants. Same with the Chargers. Same with Seattle. Same with the Pats. Same with Denver in reverse.

                                It starts and ends with the QB, and we need one NOW!"


                                Now i know some of you are absolute Bulger fans and would love to sniff his Jock if he gave you the chance (not naming any names ;-) But it seems like some of you are so blindly following him that it doesn't matter how or what he does you support him and anybody else who doesn't support him you get mad at them and have a two year old fit. Others of you will say this topic has been beat to death, thanks for your opinion then don't comment on this thread there are others who want our voices heard....

                                This is exactly how I feel about Bulger which is a good quote "I think Bulger is a good guy and he puts up a lot of effort and he plays hurt, but he also misses easy throws and does not seem motivated to move the chains at times. I like seeing other QBs in there right now, just for a change."

                                I like Bulger personally and he had some great seasons with us but whether it is Physical or Mental/Confidence problems he has now I don't think he can get the job done for us anymore as a starter.He has taking a hell of a beating the last couple of years from our crappy line and He's kinda like a boxer who gets knocked out and rocked for the first time and is never the same again like he was in his prime. We have about one more yea rleft maybe with Bulger as our QB and I'd like to see him mentor a QB we get in the draft for a year before he leaves and I don't think it makes much sense to get rid of him after this season with all the dead money that will be involved of just letting him go after the saeson but who knows..... ownership has gotten rid of all veterens on the team and he may be next...
                                -12-09-2009, 08:48 PM
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