3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

[rams#1]

heres to not seing this play under Spags time as head coach on 3rd down and really long. i got tired of seeing us do that all the time under linehan.

[schut39]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

I got tired of seeing us pass to Dane Looker on a lot of the third downs.

[diehard99]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

3rd and long means we're not running the ball very well or we're making penalties.

[bigtiger737]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Lions do that all the time too.. why the hell would a coach pick that?? I mean once a season or somthing I understand but it seems to be part of some kind of moronic philosophy.. or else the constant 5 yard toss to a reciver on 3rd and 12..

[Nick]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Uhh, yeah, except we've already seen it...

3-18-STL 40 (1:12) (Shotgun) 34-K.Darby left end to SL 47 for 7 yards (52-D.Harris).

3-10-NYJ 29 (:54) (Shotgun) 25-A.Pittman left guard to NYJ 21 for 8 yards (44-J.Ihedigbo, 33-E.Smith).

It's more than the Rams who do it as well. I imagine the idea is that, on 3rd & 10 or more, you're expecting the defense to play the pass knowing you have to pick up at least ten yards. Which means you're probably also expecting their defensive linemen to pin their ears back and rush the passer without thinking much about the run. So maybe you catch them off guard, give the ball to someone quickly in space with a draw or a screen or a swing pass, and let them make a play and gain some positive yards.

Maybe you make the first down, maybe you don't. But there aren't any guaranteed successful plays in the playbook, and throwing the ball downfield to pick up 10+ yards when the defense knows you have to do that makes it even more challenging. Some OCs would rather play it safe, not risk a negative play, and go from there.

Personally I'd prefer to see a screen than a halfback draw, but I think the idea is generally the same - try to catch the defense off guard with a short play to a guy in space and see what he can do rather than forcing the ball into coverage.

[TekeRam]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Good post Nick. Coaches notoriously are risk adverse, going to the tie as opposed to the win, punting in opposing territory, doing draws on 3rd down, etc, all in the name of not losing the game on one play. They figure that a loss over time is less damaging than a blown aggressive play that doesn't work out, but to me a loss is a loss.

Now, when would I go for a 3rd and long draw? At the beginning of a half, somewhat deep in your own territory, when you're just trying to squeak out every yard you can of positive yardage to play the field position game. Unfortunately, neither of those are deep in our territory, and one, is deep in Jets territory! The pass defense isn't going to be that far downfield so that you don't have to worry about them!

[unorthodox1999]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Lions do that all the time too.. why the hell would a coach pick that?? I mean once a season or somthing I understand but it seems to be part of some kind of moronic philosophy.. or else the constant 5 yard toss to a reciver on 3rd and 12..

Yep, just like John Madden would say, Why would you try a play on third down thats not going to give the best chance to get a 1st?

[jmk321]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

I see the Jets and Giants do draw plays on 3rd and long and they run it successfully. Both of those teams have very good offensive lines though which the Rams didn't have the last few years. You also see teams doing draws plays on a 3rd and 15 when they're pinned back next to their own endzone.

[rams#1]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Uhh, yeah, except we've already seen it...





It's more than the Rams who do it as well. I imagine the idea is that, on 3rd & 10 or more, you're expecting the defense to play the pass knowing you have to pick up at least ten yards. Which means you're probably also expecting their defensive linemen to pin their ears back and rush the passer without thinking much about the run. So maybe you catch them off guard, give the ball to someone quickly in space with a draw or a screen or a swing pass, and let them make a play and gain some positive yards.

Maybe you make the first down, maybe you don't. But there aren't any guaranteed successful plays in the playbook, and throwing the ball downfield to pick up 10+ yards when the defense knows you have to do that makes it even more challenging. Some OCs would rather play it safe, not risk a negative play, and go from there.

Personally I'd prefer to see a screen than a halfback draw, but I think the idea is generally the same - try to catch the defense off guard with a short play to a guy in space and see what he can do rather than forcing the ball into coverage.

i understand the reason for it tho nick.. problem is we weren't catching anybody off guard the past few seasons. that was another sign that linehan and Co basicaly where giving up during games.. something that we never saw Mike Martz do.. i don't care if we where down by 17 points with 5 minutes to go.. does that sound familiar? 2004 at seattle.. i guarante if scott linehan was the coach in that game we would have folded and just tried to run out the clock. but mike aired it out and the defense stood tall. i really believe that if your defense sees that you are doing everything that you can to come back and play hard then they will match your intensity and thus you have a domino effect. because if the D sees that the O is just packing it in then they will be like, "well why should we kill ourselves out there when basicaly it doesn't matter" heres to the SPAGS era though



Go Rams!

[btimsah]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

i understand the reason for it tho nick.. problem is we weren't catching anybody off guard the past few seasons. that was another sign that linehan and Co basicaly where giving up during games.. something that we never saw Mike Martz do.. i don't care if we where down by 17 points with 5 minutes to go.. does that sound familiar? 2004 at seattle.. i guarante if scott linehan was the coach in that game we would have folded and just tried to run out the clock. but mike aired it out and the defense stood tall. i really believe that if your defense sees that you are doing everything that you can to come back and play hard then they will match your intensity and thus you have a domino effect. because if the D sees that the O is just packing it in then they will be like, "well why should we kill ourselves out there when basicaly it doesn't matter" heres to the SPAGS era though

Go Rams!

I think what your talking about is a more of an attacking offense, as opposed to a "take what the defense only gives you" approach. Martz in his heyday attacked the defense. But eventually it became less and less effective as defenses woke up to it.

I thought you were talking about opposing teams calling draws on 3rd and long on us, btw. lol

But you don't do a draw on 3rd and long, on a bad team. It comes across as giving up or something.

[Nick]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

i understand the reason for it tho nick.. problem is we weren't catching anybody off guard the past few seasons. that was another sign that linehan and Co basicaly where giving up during games.. something that we never saw Mike Martz do.. i don't care if we where down by 17 points with 5 minutes to go.. does that sound familiar? 2004 at seattle.. i guarante if scott linehan was the coach in that game we would have folded and just tried to run out the clock. but mike aired it out and the defense stood tall. i really believe that if your defense sees that you are doing everything that you can to come back and play hard then they will match your intensity and thus you have a domino effect. because if the D sees that the O is just packing it in then they will be like, "well why should we kill ourselves out there when basicaly it doesn't matter" heres to the SPAGS era though



Go Rams!

Okay, I'm not really sure what you're arguing at this point. I don't think anyone is claiming that Scott Linehan was a great leader of men, but the point of my response was that there are situations where the play makes sense, and it's not just Linehan who features it in his playbook.

Running a draw or a screen or pass to the flat on third and long doesn't always mean you've given up on the drive or even the game. It more likely means that you run an offensive system that views ball security as a priority, which I believe Linehan did (and Martz really didn't).

For what it's worth, I believe in this matter Spags is closer to Linehan on the ball security spectrum than he is with Martz, so I wouldn't be shocked if you see this kind of play again in the future. The point of emphasis shouldn't be eliminating this play from the Rams' playbook but consistently getting yards on first and second down while minimizing mistakes so we don't find ourselves in as many 3rd & Long situations.

[rams#1]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Okay, I'm not really sure what you're arguing at this point. I don't think anyone is claiming that Scott Linehan was a great leader of men, but the point of my response was that there are situations where the play makes sense, and it's not just Linehan who features it in his playbook.

Running a draw or a screen or pass to the flat on third and long doesn't always mean you've given up on the drive or even the game. It more likely means that you run an offensive system that views ball security as a priority, which I believe Linehan did (and Martz really didn't).

For what it's worth, I believe in this matter Spags is closer to Linehan on the ball security spectrum than he is with Martz, so I wouldn't be shocked if you see this kind of play again in the future. The point of emphasis shouldn't be eliminating this play from the Rams' playbook but consistently getting yards on first and second down while minimizing mistakes so we don't find ourselves in as many 3rd & Long situations.

thats fair enough I know what I want to say but sometimes I just cant seem to find the words. lol but I promise that there is a point to this..

[BobCarl]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

...i got tired of seeing us do that all the time under linehan.

"all the time" is the problem; ... the draw is a great call/audible if you do it perhaps 10% of the time and the QB knows that the defense is dropping back into the dime-plus.

But Linehan was loyal to his prevent-offense game plan and his 3rd and longs were tooooooo predictable

[Azul e Oro]

Re: 3rd and long what play is it? RB Draw

Doesn't a draw only work consistently if the D has to respect the possibility of a pass, esp a screen or short/intermediate pass to a RB/TE in the middle?

Some success at either will tempt the LBs/safeties to back off the LOS or play the sideline and the draw can be a pretty embarrassing de-pantsing. If the ball's in SJ's hands and there's nothing between him and the EZ but a safety...

The Rams have been woeful in both areas the last couple of years. I saw some good screens against the Bungles so we can hope for better with a healthy set of TEs and surehanded backs and, of course, better o-line play and quick accurate throws.

In short, I think Btimsah is right; a draw is only a bad play if your team is bad.Sometimes it's like a defensive lob in tennis but ,if your O is multifaceted, it can be wickedly effective.

The play I never want to see again is that backwards pass to a WR just outside the tackle box that Limpehan loved. I think it worked once in a billion sickening repetitions & was such a silly waste of their skills.