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In hindsight ... very interesting

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  • In hindsight ... very interesting

    I am not sure what to read about this, but in hindsight it sounds like our coordinators knew what we needed to do. What strikes me the most is the part of Shurmur's comments that I highlighted (bold) because that is exactly what the Rams let happen.

    We have to start asking ourselves - why, if we know what is coming, can't we seem to avoid the traps that teams are setting for us. I contend it's execution (i.e. lack of skill/experience) but I am sure there are other thoughts. Discuss...

    -----------------------------
    Rams' coordinators discuss Raiders
    BY BILL COATS | Posted: Saturday, September 18, 2010 3:15 pm

    FROM THE COORDINATORS
    Offensive coordinator Pat Shurmur, on whether he can call plays more aggressively with Sam Bradford at QB: “I don’t know about aggressive. I think it’s important that we take our shots. You can’t leave the defense in a position where they’re only covering part of the field. What Sam brings is, he’s a good athlete. So that allows you to move him. He does a good job of throwing the ball with accuracy, so he can throw from the pocket. He’s tall enough to see. All of those things I think give you more options.”

    Defensive coordinator Ken Flajole, on what the Raiders present at wide receiver: “A lot of speed. The top five guys can all run, and they’re very committed to the vertical passing game. They want to take their shots. …The Raiders pride themselves …on being a vertical passing team. They like speed at wide receiver, and they try to get them the ball down the field.”

  • #2
    Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

    IDK what to say about Shurmur.....

    BUT what I think happened with Ken Flajole was that he did a good job covering the WRs over the top (i.e. Butler's pick) but then in the second half when they started to run a little better... he brought the safeties down to play a little closer to help the run.. and then boom the deep plays. but that's just how I saw it when I was watching the game.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

      Originally posted by Shale View Post
      We have to start asking ourselves - why, if we know what is coming, can't we seem to avoid the traps that teams are setting for us. I contend it's execution (i.e. lack of skill/experience) but I am sure there are other thoughts. Discuss...
      I have to agree with you about the execution and I think it is mostly due to the reasons you stated.

      Bradford is very green and he missed on some key throws there in the second half. A few of the throws he just needed to take some off and others he just flat misfired.

      After all these years SJax is still dancing as he approaches the line. He's not very good at finding seams, he has plenty of leg power, yet he lacks a quick burst, breakaway speed, and his cutback ability leaves much to be desired.

      He just not a bigtime playmaker and we have no other playmakers for Bradford to get the ball to.

      This lack of offensive execution creates many of the 3 and outs by the offense and then of course leaves the defense on the field too much.

      Alot of Fans are screaming about playcalling, but I don't think it's as bad as execution and the lack of a bigtime playmaker.

      That's not to say Shurmur gets a free pass. The thing that gripes me about his playbook is the design of these plays. You often see several receivers going to the same short areas of the field, no screens, not much motion, no post routes, and never a crossing route. Some of the best pass plays are the ones that invlove the TE's.

      Still, the design of this passing offense is a far cry from the Martz' system that myself and many others were in love with.

      They say they want to be a running team yet they don't even have a great run scheme with a RB to utilize the scheme.

      Hopefully this offense will come together, but my patience with it is growing thin and right now I think it is a waste of a great young QB talent.


      :helmet:

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

        Originally posted by Ferter View Post

        After all these years SJax is still dancing as he approaches the line. He's not very good at finding seams, he has plenty of leg power, yet he lacks a quick burst, breakaway speed, and his cutback ability leaves much to be desired.

        He just not a bigtime playmaker and we have no other playmakers for Bradford to get the ball to.

        T
        So Jackson's 125 total yards, and Leading us in receiving was chop liver?

        You have to remember they were keying on Jackson. So they think what any team thinks, Stop Jackson, Stop the Rams. It's a team game last time I saw it, and Steven Jackson was the team that day. No one really helped him out when it counted.

        Also the play callings creativity was deplorable. Open up the playbook and take shots down field. This kid Bradford has the ability to throw of course hes going to miss, but all i see is quick short passes, no shots down the middle when they were bringing the pressure down the middle, leaving it wide open. I still saw no receivers in those areas.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

          Originally posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
          So Jackson's 125 total yards, and Leading us in receiving was chop liver?

          You have to remember they were keying on Jackson. So they think what any team thinks, Stop Jackson, Stop the Rams. It's a team game last time I saw it, and Steven Jackson was the team that day. No one really helped him out when it counted.
          Did I say anything about chop liver? You did not address one thing that I wrote about SJ? Why is that? Because it's true.

          He did not make any big plays to speak of. No TD's, 75 yds rushing with a long of 23, 4 rec with a long of 24. He had mack truck lanes to run in when he did gain yds. All he did was keep the chains moving for a short part of the game. What do you mean no one helped him out when it counted? You prop him up for the his stats yet you say he got no help. Are you trying to say he did all that by himself? Didn't you also say it was a team game? Yet everything SJ did was on his own? Which way do you want it? Both ways, I see....lol


          Originally posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
          Also the play callings creativity was deplorable. Open up the playbook and take shots down field. This kid Bradford has the ability to throw of course hes going to miss, but all i see is quick short passes, no shots down the middle when they were bringing the pressure down the middle, leaving it wide open. I still saw no receivers in those areas.
          Bradford missed on several passes that were past the first down stripe. You've got to make a few completions to move the chains before you can just go ahead and miss a few, otherwise it's just 3 and out every series. Sure he has talent, but he's not even close to being polished yet.

          What makes you think there is a playbook to open up. This is the classic dink and dunk offense. It's so conservative you'd think we were back to the days of Knox.

          Teams that have had the most success over the last several years (Saints, Cards, Colts, Pats) are running wide open offenses. Not this dink and dunk crap with a 7 yard dose of SJ and a cloud of dust.

          This offense is pathetic!!!


          :helmet:

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

            Originally posted by Ferter View Post
            Are you trying to say he did all that by himself? Didn't you also say it was a team game? Yet everything SJ did was on his own? Which way do you want it? Both ways, I see....lol

            This offense is pathetic!!!


            :helmet:
            He did most of it from what i watched and That was a game from beggining to end. If you haven't already noticed, the very next play after steven moved the chains they play actioned him while in the redzone and created that whole pass play for Clayton.

            All because the defense was focused on Steven Jackson. I watched the whole game the score was 14. Technically because of the pressure created by Jackson led to their first score. And that was half of the two times they scored. Both ways buddy. Steven Jackson carried the team until the raiders decided to Key on him. Because shurmur kept running up the middle not mixing it up They Just stacked the box. Therefore stoping steven Jackson.

            and Yes the offensive game plan is pathetic. I just see shurmur collecting a paycheck. When he sits down next to bradford, I see no want, no passion no fire. I see it in bradford, but he has it more than shurmur. Shurmur looks like he thinks " Well after the game im going to have a nice juicy steak, Ok lets run straight up the middle."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

              Originally posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
              He did most of it from what i watched and That was a game from beggining to end. If you haven't already noticed, the very next play after steven moved the chains they play actioned him while in the redzone and created that whole pass play for Clayton.

              All because the defense was focused on Steven Jackson. I watched the whole game the score was 14. Technically because of the pressure created by Jackson led to their first score. And that was half of the two times they scored. Both ways buddy. Steven Jackson carried the team until the raiders decided to Key on him. Because shurmur kept running up the middle not mixing it up They Just stacked the box. Therefore stoping steven Jackson.

              and Yes the offensive game plan is pathetic. I just see shurmur collecting a paycheck. When he sits down next to bradford, I see no want, no passion no fire. I see it in bradford, but he has it more than shurmur. Shurmur looks like he thinks " Well after the game im going to have a nice juicy steak, Ok lets run straight up the middle."
              Yes it was a good drive and getting the run game going opened the play action, but SJ did not do it all by himself.

              He had help....;)

              Anyways, at least we can agree on one thing and that is the sorry state of this offense.


              :helmet:

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                Originally posted by Ferter View Post

                Anyways, at least we can agree on one thing and that is the sorry state of this offense.


                :helmet:
                We agree on more than that, we are both ram fans just stating our thoughts

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                • #9
                  Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                  Seriously? Sometimes I wish you guys wouldn't have drafted Bradford so I could have been a fan of another team who appreciates the caliber of QB this man will become. I realize you guys are hurting for a win, but I don't want to see any of you singing his praises when he becomes one of the best quarterbacks of all time.

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                  • #10
                    Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                    After some time here you'll learn that there are certain people who will attack and insult our QB no matter who he is and no matter what the situation is.
                    "I've been saving the Universe for over a thousand years. I figure it owes me just this once."

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                    • #11
                      Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                      Originally posted by Sooner View Post
                      Seriously? Sometimes I wish you guys wouldn't have drafted Bradford so I could have been a fan of another team who appreciates the caliber of QB this man will become. I realize you guys are hurting for a win, but I don't want to see any of you singing his praises when he becomes one of the best quarterbacks of all time.
                      What the hell are you talking about? The majority(mostly everyone) is happy with Bradford and can see the superstar potential through his actions and play. Keying in on his 'mishaps' is not taking him for granted, but merely pointing out rookie mistakes that any football fan, including Sam, knows he is going to have and can work on. Nonetheless, there will be the occasional fan that will bash him, but you will find that with any team. (could I add, on this site some of the "bashers" take it upon themselves to be the clowns and d*bags of the forum, so they are easy to spot, and ignore for that matter.) With that being said, dont think your doing us any favors by being a "fan".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                        Sooner, he's not "yours" anymore. Let him go. Manoman, talk about a mancrush.
                        Look away. I'm hideous. __ Cozmo Kramer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                          Originally posted by Sooner View Post
                          Seriously? Sometimes I wish you guys wouldn't have drafted Bradford so I could have been a fan of another team who appreciates the caliber of QB this man will become. I realize you guys are hurting for a win, but I don't want to see any of you singing his praises when he becomes one of the best quarterbacks of all time.
                          some people don't get it, they think the qb is supposed to single-handedly win us games, as if he is the one calling plays and making the catches as well. it's a problem on the internet. most of us realize he's well on his way to becoming our leader, personally i would like to see us get him some help NOW in the form of a deep-threat receiver and a new play caller before we ruin him, but that's just me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: In hindsight ... very interesting

                            I'm not sure anyone, aside from a few poor unfortunate souls, have said anything derogatory about Sam. As others have said however, he's not going to be able to do it on his own.

                            I'll disagree with Ferter about SJ but agree with his comments regarding scheme. It was something Lynch highlighted in the play by play in the second half when he made the point that the Rams were doing the Raiders job for them by pinching the field with tight formations. Its all very well trying to pass out of bunched formations but when your receivers are all running to the same place it becomes a pointless exercise.

                            With receivers such as ours we have to do a better job scheme-wise to make up for what they might not have in talent and I don't think we're doing that currently. We're simply not presenting a big enough challenge to opposing defenses currently. You might say that I'm being slightly unfair in that we've only seen two games but then I saw sixteen very similar games last season and I'm not sure how much more time Shurmur needs to be able to demonstrate he can make the best of what he has.

                            As of now, I'd maybe give him until mid-season because I'm not sure that Spags can afford to give him much longer.

                            Comment

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                            • clarasDK
                              Is Pat Shumur a Bad Offensive Coordinator?
                              by clarasDK
                              Long but interesting article from Rams on Demand - St Louis Rams Message Board • Index page
                              Is Pat Shumur a Bad Offensive Coordinator?
                              Filed in St Louis Rams on Oct.29, 2010
                              By: Joey Bittick
                              Week 8 of the NFL season is nearly upon us, and the Rams will enter Sunday after a painful loss to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Coming off of what I believe will go down as a landmark victory for the boys in blue and gold against the San Diego Chargers in Week 6, the Rams lost in confounding fashion to the Bucs. Entering the second half with a 17-3 lead against the Buccaneers, the Rams were shutout following halftime and lost 18-17 on a last-second touchdown throw by Tampa’s Josh Freeman. I must admit my spirits have been down all week following such an exasperating loss by the Rams, and I know I am not alone. So I will refrain from examining that game, but what I do want to look at are some of the criticisms being discussed ad nauseam by Rams fans. These criticisms are mainly aimed at Rams second-year head coach Steve Spagnuolo, and more specifically, his offensive coordinator, Pat Shurmur.

                              Thus far in the Spagnuolo era, the Rams have simply struggled to put points on the scoreboard. Last season, the Rams offense was historically bad due mainly to injuries and poor play at the quarterback position, which led to the drafting of Sam Bradford. Bradford entered the season with rather low expectations; people mainly just wanted him to get through the season healthy and show a few small signs that he is the man to help the Rams reclaim their former glory. However, with Bradford and the Rams looking good in the preseason and getting a few regular season wins under their belt in the early matchups, Rams fans have gotten a bit greedy. We want to see wins…and now please.

                              However, being fanatics (defined as “a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal”), we tend to… well not so much forget, but overlook the fact that this is a team that went 1-15 in 2009 and was just dreadful on both sides of the ball. But due to some key offseason acquisitions, this team is suddenly in the race in the weak NFC West, and people are already expecting them to win games. One thing that has not changed, though, since last season is the condemnation of the Pat Shurmur offense. Coordinating an offense that scored less than 11 points per game in 2009 will certainly not endear a coach to fans, especially fans that were treated to the greatest offensive juggernaut in NFL history just a few short seasons ago during the Greatest Show on Turf.

                              Some are not willing to accept the fact that Shurmur had almost nothing to work with in ’09. To say that team was short of playmakers would be a major understatement. Outside of Steven Jackson, I truly believe there were NCAA offenses out there that would have fared better in the NFL than the Rams. Shurmur has better pieces to work with in 2010, but this is not a team
                              ...
                              -10-30-2010, 12:48 AM
                            • MauiRam
                              Memo To the St. Louis Rams: How Enemy DCs Will Destroy Your WCO In 2010
                              by MauiRam
                              By David Leon

                              The West Coast Offense is not my favorite offensive scheme, not by a long shot. I greatly prefer the Gilman-Coryell-Martz approach. I would also prefer the Spread, and the K-Gun, two very similar offenses. The WCO would rank just above the Erhardt-Perkins and Lombardi-Shula schemes. That's pretty low on my list of favorites.

                              So why do I dislike the WCO? It's pretty easy to beat these days, that's why. Nobody plays it in the pure form that Walsh did back in 1981. The reason is simple: They can't. The pure system doesn't really work anymore. Let me give you a little history lesson about it.

                              Back in the year 1981, everyone was deathly afraid of the bomb. Not the atomic bomb, the long pass. The 1978 rule changes had been in effect for three full years prior to the 49er eruption.

                              Teams like the Steelers and Raiders had used the bomb with devastating effect on route to Super Bowl championships. The Cowboys were playing bombs-away also. Even the Rams, with Vince Ferragamo, were throwing the football deep.

                              In those days, most defenses would concede a four yard pass and think nothing of it. They would not contest those short routes much at all.

                              If you added some sophistication to your short passing game, running combination routes to produce rub-offs and so forth, you could really move the chains. You could sustain a drive for 9-12 plays, keep your defense off the field, build your QB's passer rating, and score touchdowns.

                              Bill Walsh knew and understood this. He organized his entire offense around the precept that defensive coordinators would give him his short yardage, practically for free. This was especially true in the final two minutes of the game when everybody (and I mean everybody) played the prevent defense.

                              The 49er offense was revolutionary for the time. Frankly, I always knew it could be stopped. I used to chastise our Ram defensive coordinators, like Fritz Shurmur, for ordering our corners to cover the 49er WRs as they ran endlessly down the field on eight and nine routes to no avail. Joe would seldom throw the football deep. Truth be told, he had a 40 yard arm. He couldn't fling it that deep with any consistency of accuracy.

                              Well, it took awhile, but a defensive coordinator arose who had the nuts to play a realistic defense against the WCO. I regret to say this, but the man's name is Bill Belichick. At the time, he was the defensive coordinator for the New York Giants under Bill Parcells.

                              If you will check the historical record, you will find the New York Giants were the team that most consistently vexed the 49er dynasty. They laid a devastating 49-3 route on ***** on route to their first Super Bowl victory in 1986-87.

                              Jim Burk sent Joe Montana out on a stretcher in that game. They terminated the ***** shot at a three-pete in 1990-91....
                              -05-14-2010, 08:20 AM
                            • swatter555
                              Should the Rams stretch the field more?
                              by swatter555
                              I will just speak for myself and say that the relatively conservative nature of the Rams offensive gameplans are frustrating at times. While we do seem to have some success in the first half of games, we have little success in the second. I see the Rams offense as a one trick pony at this point. If an opponent can stop Steven Jackson running up the gut and get on top of the screens, the Rams are punting the ball. This has most certainly been the case in the second halves against SD and TB.

                              So should the Rams throw deep more often despite the depleted WR corps? Or is someone going to make the case that a conservative gameplan is the best option we have right now?
                              -10-28-2010, 01:52 PM
                            • r8rh8rmike
                              Shurmur Gets The Most Out Of Rams' Offense
                              by r8rh8rmike
                              Shurmur gets the most out of Rams' offense

                              BY BERNIE MIKLASZ
                              Thursday, November 11, 2010

                              Other than Cardinals manager Tony La Russa, I don't think any manager or coach in St. Louis takes more heat than Pat Shurmur. The Rams' offensive coordinator rarely seems to be on the popular side of public opinion.

                              I've gotten on him for, among other things, failing to adjust the game plan in the second half. And for being reluctant to call enough down-field passes. And for trying to play it too safe when the Rams have a lead. Usually these acerbic critiques come after the Rams have lost a frustrating game. The second-half breakdowns at Oakland and Tampa Bay come to mind.

                              During calmer moments, I appreciate Shurmur. I'll be honest: I think I was slow to come to understand his wisdom and philosophy with this particular offensive cast. And that's my fault.

                              This does not mean that we agree with all of his choices. I think Shurmur could be more creative. We'll get into some of that later.

                              But allow me to try and explain why I've come to respect Shurmur's work.

                              The Rams don't have an explosive offense. We can have fits of distemper and holler for deep passes and a tricked-up game plan. But what, exactly, would be accomplished if Shurmur tried to go with a vertical offense? It would be stupid. And harmful. The Rams don't have the receivers to play home-run derby. They lack the element of danger.

                              Shurmur has referred to what he does as 'small ball ... lots of bunts and singles." And absolutely he's right. The Rams average 9.79 yards per completed pass. That's last (32nd) in the NFL. According to STATS LLC, the Rams' average number of yards at the point of the reception — what the receiver does after making the catch isn't included — is only 4.4 yards, which ranks 31st. Translation: lots of short passes.

                              But if this is small ball, the Rams are doing a fine job of executing it.

                              And there is true value in this approach.

                              No. 1, Shurmur is keeping rookie quarterback Sam Bradford out of harm's way most of the time. Only 5.5 percent of the Rams' attempts to pass end in a sack. That's among the lowest sack rates in the NFL this season. That's also the lowest sack rate by a Rams offense since the team moved to St. Louis in 1995. Reducing sacks not only minimizes the number of hits on Bradford, it also helps the Rams avoid drive-killing negative plays. A passing game that gets rid of the ball quickly also gives young offensive tackles Rodger Saffold and Jason Smith a chance to develop under more reasonable circumstances. Saffold and Smith have allowed only three sacks (combined) this season.

                              No. 2, Bradford is developing a rhythm and confidence in the West Coast offense. This has been a superb experience for Bradford to learn how to master the shorter pass routes that form the foundation...
                              -11-11-2010, 10:55 AM
                            • MauiRam
                              Yesterday's post press conference comments ..
                              by MauiRam
                              Post Practice – Head Coach Steve Spagnuolo – 9/16/10

                              (Opening remarks)
                              “Not a lot to report injury-wise, just really two things. (DT) Darell Scott, I don’t know if you saw, he got dinged out there with his knee. (Head Athletic Trainer) Reggie (Scott) has got him in there. We’ll find out where he’s at. (DT) Cliff Ryan was not here. Last night he got…he felt ill. Not really sure what he’s got going on. He went to the hospital. He called Reggie this morning. They’re kind of over there doing a bunch of battery tests, so we won’t really know until we get out of here and Reggie contacts Cliff or whoever he saw. So I don’t really have anything on that right now. (CB) Kevin (Dockery) didn’t go at all. (WR) Laurent Robinson got in there and got a little bit of playing time and (CB) Justin King did basically individual and then Reggie worked with him. Other than that, I thought it was a pretty up-tempo practice. We’re into Thursday, tomorrow we’ll do a lot of red zone, and before you know it we’re playing the game.”

                              (On if Ryan went to the hospital for tests this morning or stayed overnight)
                              “He stayed overnight, but what he did was he - I talked to him this morning, Reggie talked to him this morning – he woke up, he had a headache, he didn’t feel good, he didn’t, you know, the whole deal. So he went over to the hospital then he…but they kept him over there, and then when I talked to him this morning he was still there so I’ll know more this afternoon.”

                              (On newly acquired LB Bryan Kehl)
                              “Yeah, Bryan Kehl from New York. Actually, I was in New York when he was a rookie in ’08. Unfortunately, you guys know what happened to (LB) Josh Hull. He went on IR. He’s got a knee, it’s an ACL. I don’t know when he’ll have surgery. It will be a little while. But Bryan’s a guy I’m familiar with. He’s an athletic linebacker. He’ll probably be a little bit familiar with the system, although that’s two years removed so I’m sure some of it will be new and different. He’ll have to get the speed course here in the next two days.”

                              (On if he anticipates Kehl playing this Sunday)
                              “Might. He might.”

                              (On if Kehl can take on LB Chris Chamberlain’s role on special teams)
                              “Might be, yeah, might be. Hard to tell. Guys are all different, but he plays special teams. He’ll have to serve that role right now.”

                              (On King’s status)
                              “A hamstring, you’ve got to be a little careful with. If you go out there too soon and you re-pull the thing, than we won’t have him at all for Sunday. (CB) Jerome (Murphy) right now is serving Justin’s role and we probably won’t know until Saturday or Sunday whether Justin will be able to go.”

                              (On what LB Britt Miller brings to the team)
                              “Britt does a lot of things. He’s a practice squad guy right now, but he’s played fullback, he’s played linebacker, he plays all the special teams spots. He loves the game of football,...
                              -09-17-2010, 10:56 AM
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