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I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

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  • I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

    Heard people say this a lot… I really don’t buy this on the defensive side of the ball (though I agree there is a definite lack of talent on OL)… almost every player (maybe exception being Coady and D Lewis ) has at some point shown a lot of promise.. feels like yesterday we were all praising Polley and had Arch penciled in as a future pro bowler… why then have they all suddenly forgotten how to tackle or make a play ? Doesn’t sound like a talent issue to me…

    My theory is that it is purely a question of motivation…. Martz has lost his ability to motivate this lot… I think a lot has to do with the way he has critisied his players openly (and maybe been a bit too trigger happy in demoting some players) and indeed been praised himself eventhough he has prepared his team poorly… I have a sneaking suspicion that this team is ready to break out of its slumber - but only once Martz leaves or puts his hand up and admits guilt.

  • #2
    Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

    I don't believe in the "no talent" thing either. These guys we call the Rams have played good enough to get to the pros, and some have played in the NFL for years. At the risk of fanning the flames (and people, let's not take this the wrong way, this thread is NOT on the subject of KW), saying the Rams have no talent is like saying that KW has no talent.
    Bullcrap.
    These guys are good enough to get out there and make a statement. Maybe some of the rookies are still not to the point of making a name for themselves, but look at the names of those that have: Bulger, Arch, Pace, Holt, Bruce, Pisa, Wilkins....I could name over half the team here. And I dare ANYONE to say these guys have no talent. Each one of them is at or above average for the position they play.
    So where is the problem at this year? Well, it might be coaching, it might be a problem meshing into a team, it might be a massive case of itching powder in the player's jock straps. But lack of talent....bullcrap.
    temp_4394_1467243487543_20
    RAMS!

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    • #3
      Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

      My theory is that it is purely a question of motivation…. Martz has lost his ability to motivate this lot
      I feel just the opposite. I think Martz is just now realizing the importance of motivation because his talent pool has dried up. The Rams have not been overly motivated since the 1970's with the possible exception of the Kevin Green days. They have used their talent to get by especially over the past 5 years. As far as defense, they can play but they seem to be a little to frail to continuously hit hard. The Rams went after speed with lovie as DC. Remember last year? The Rams defense got run over just as bad as this year however their hustle to the ball created turnovers. Credit Lovie, Fault that poor excuse of a DC Marmie. Fault Martz for hiring his buddy. Martz's choice in DC's may prove to be a head coach killer. Martz needs to call Marmie in his office and put the fear of hell in him. That is, he needs to hold Marmies feet to the fire and Marmie needs to let the shat flow down hill. NOW! Not 1 game from now, RIGHT NOW! You would think that the defense could take at least one game and dominate it when our offense is not lighting it up and our special teams are giving up big returns. Nope they just continue to be worthless no matter what the situation is. Call me crazy but I just have a feeling that there are some serious ultimatums coming out of Martz's mouth and into the ears of anyone in shouting distance. Martz tried to treat this team and his coaches with respect and has left it up to them to be ready over the years he has been in charge. They have taken his kindness for granted one two many times and your going to see the results of his ass chewing’s Monday Night.

      "I just want to get this thing into the playoffs." RamTime.

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      • #4
        Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

        Martz tried to treat this team and his coaches with respect and has left it up to them to be ready over the years he has been in charge. They have taken his kindness for granted one two many times and your going to see the results of his ass chewing’s Monday Night
        Maybe.. but if he thinks he can suddenly turn into a hard arse and get the team motivated then he better start talking to the fins

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        • #5
          Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

          if winning a suprbowl, earning a top contract, chance of going to the pro-bowl cannot motivate arch, what can??
          The Breakfast Club. You want cheese with that?

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          • #6
            Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

            The problem is not talent, the problem is coaching and lack of motivation. The Rams are fielding the same defense as last year, minus Grant. Although Grant was a good player you can’t tell me he made that much difference.

            Last year Lovie was an excellent manager/coach who took the strength, and weaknesses of the talent and resources he had, and matched them to the opportunities, and threats of opposing teams. He devised a strategy that leveraged the small size and quick speed of the D to the best ability, leveraging turnovers. His strategy of leveraging turnovers was also complimentary to the offense, minimizing the plus minus turnover ratio of the gambling offense.

            Lovie also motivated the “D”, does anyone remember the pushups after anyone on the D missed a potential interception? Does anyone remember the “loaf” awards? Does anyone remember the requirement to have 11 hats on the ball? All of these are symptoms of good motivation.

            Unfortunately Marmie cannot motivate the D. Does this D have any character at all other than missed tackles? We don’t need some old retread from a failed franchise as a D coordinator. We need a young stud from a successful organization! Larry, here’s your bus ticket…

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            • #7
              Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

              I believe the problem is not lack of talent but lack mixing the talent.

              I don't believe the players that are on the field together can play together as a team and they don't compliment their skills.

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              • #8
                Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but I think the single best fix we can do is lose Marmie in the offseason. His hiring was the single biggest mistake since letting London walk.

                A Marmie-led defense has never, that is to say NEVER, finished higher than 22nd in scoring D and 24th in yardage D. In scoring D, his teams have finished 29th or worse in 3 of the last 4 seasons. We are hovering there now in 27th place. I guess that actually makes this a banner year for Marmie. His D is placing better than 29th. He still has a few spots to climb before reaching his career best of 22nd place, but everybody needs a goal.

                If the Rams finish the season on par with the first 10 games, they will have the lowest yardage defense ranking since 1982. During that same span, the scoring defense has been eclipsed by only the 2000 team and 1995 team.

                Not bad for your first year Larry. The D has gone to depths they haven't seen in over 20 years....but again, I'm not sure why we expected different.

                The talent is there. These players are not nearly as bad as they have collectively shown. If it were 1 or 2 players whose performance had dropped I could point to those players, but when an entire unit has depreciated to the point they have this year, it goes beyond the players. Larry, you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
                The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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                • #9
                  Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                  Originally posted by RamWraith
                  I believe the problem is not lack of talent but lack mixing the talent.

                  I don't believe the players that are on the field together can play together as a team and they don't compliment their skills.

                  I agree, talent/potential, yes, all players that have entered the nfl have talent, but these guys aren't playing well together.
                  The Breakfast Club. You want cheese with that?

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                  • #10
                    Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                    I also don't buy this no talent argument. I think that's a cop-out and a weak rationalization for how the team is playing.

                    While i agree that there is some talent missing at some positions (o-line), I think we have more talent than our play indicates.

                    I'd be alot more receptive to the "not enough talent" if we were at least playing hard and with discipline. But the silly amount of penalties and mistakes we seem to make every other week tells me that this is more of a discipline and preparation issue. If we were playing hard and limiting mistakes and just not getting the job done than I'd agree that maybe there's a lack of talent. As it is I can't buy that argument.

                    RamWraith makes a very good point.....

                    I believe the problem is not lack of talent but lack mixing the talent.
                    And that is strictly on the coaching staff.


                    The problem is not talent, the problem is coaching and lack of motivation. The Rams are fielding the same defense as last year, minus Grant. Although Grant was a good player you can’t tell me he made that much difference.

                    Last year Lovie was an excellent manager/coach who took the strength, and weaknesses of the talent and resources he had, and matched them to the opportunities, and threats of opposing teams. He devised a strategy that leveraged the small size and quick speed of the D to the best ability, leveraging turnovers. His strategy of leveraging turnovers was also complimentary to the offense, minimizing the plus minus turnover ratio of the gambling offense.

                    Lovie also motivated the “D”, does anyone remember the pushups after anyone on the D missed a potential interception? Does anyone remember the “loaf” awards? Does anyone remember the requirement to have 11 hats on the ball? All of these are symptoms of good motivation.

                    Unfortunately Marmie cannot motivate the D. Does this D have any character at all other than missed tackles? We don’t need some old retread from a failed franchise as a D coordinator. We need a young stud from a successful organization! Larry, here’s your bus ticket…
                    Couldn't have been said better by anyone.
                    Clannie Nominee for ClanRam's Thickest Poster

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                    • #11
                      Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                      The talent is there. These players are not nearly as bad as they have collectively shown. If it were 1 or 2 players whose performance had dropped I could point to those players, but when an entire unit has depreciated to the point they have this year, it goes beyond the players. Larry, you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. --HUbison
                      You're right -- of course we have talent! I support MM but I also see his mistakes. Marmie is a mistake, buddy and all. Fact is, it's too late to adjust at this stage of the season.

                      I hope we can seriously, truly make the best out of it and pull a rare ending to this year. It's happened before with equally talented teams.

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                      • #12
                        Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                        I also never accepted the no-talent scenario, it just doesn't make sense. This defense has shown it can be effective against good competition. Injuries have been a problem, but every team in the NFL has to deal with injuries, it's a given. Mistakes, penalties, mental lapses and not being prepared are the problems. The players have to make plays on the field, but the coaching staff has to have them ready, motivated and disciplined. Teams that are ready to win, win.

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                        • #13
                          Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                          I think it's part coaching, but I think we vastly overrated the skills of this defense under Lovie Smith last year. We would have fielded a very similar defense last season had the Rams not been able to be around the ball as much as they were. The run defense last season during the final stretch was miserable in some instances. The defense has always had tackling problems, this isn't new. I think some people see this year's defense and think last year's was somehow vastly superior, yet I would say that many of the same problems existed but were masked by the defense's ability to create turnovers.

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                          • #14
                            Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                            Originally posted by NickSeiler
                            I think some people see this year's defense and think last year's was somehow vastly superior,
                            I don't think they were vastly superior in talent, but they sure as heck were in performance, as an overall unit. Yes they had trouble tackling sometimes, but they were always around the ball, and like you said, they created turnovers. It just seems at times that they are not playing as hard as they were last year.
                            Clannie Nominee for ClanRam's Thickest Poster

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                            • #15
                              Re: I don’t buy this "no talent" thing

                              Originally posted by Yodude
                              I don't think they were vastly superior in talent, but they sure as heck were in performance, as an overall unit. Yes they had trouble tackling sometimes, but they were always around the ball, and like you said, they created turnovers. It just seems at times that they are not playing as hard as they were last year.
                              Interesting to note: the Rams defense is allowing fewer average running yards per game over ten games this season than their last ten games of 2003. Missed tackles have been a problem for years. This defense crumbling and being run over is nothing new. The only difference is their ability to create turnovers. My question is whose fault that is. We've seen a number of guys almost get turnovers only to not come through.

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                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Rams
                                by Guest
                                The loss today is not the important issue regarding the Rams.

                                If Seattle comes in and steals a win from the Rams it’s going to suck however that is not the important issue facing the Rams.

                                If we miss the playoffs that will really bite the big one however this is not what concerns me the most.

                                What concerns me the most is the direction this team is going. This team seems to go in the direction that they are in the mood for that day. They have shown they can play football, they have shown they are capable of becoming motivated however that motivation is usually absent and it seems that no body in the organization is able to take charge and get the team motivated to play ball at the level they are capable of.

                                It's not always the head coach that is the motivator. Some people just cannot rally others together as well as others. It doesn't necessarily have to be the head coach that motivates a team but it sure as hell is his responsibility to see that someone gets it done.

                                The Ravens have Ray Lewis but who's our guy? Anyone care to take a shot at naming our motivator? The truth is, our motivators have been cut, traded or just plain shat on by the Rams. London Fletcher may have not been the best linebacker that played the game but he sure as hell brought his attitude with him on Sundays. Billy Jenkins, Roman Phifier, Rickey Prohel, Az Hakim, Dre Bly Todd Kichen, Toby Wright all had the ability to get the team going.

                                So out go those guys and in comes Kyle Turley who in my mind was the final straw on the Rams breaking back. He may have been a motivator but his motivation was clearly from his own selfish agenda which was to dismantle the team starting with Warner then take a years hiatis while the smoke cleared.

                                So now we are left with the crumbled aftermath and we do not know which direction this team is headed. That is the important issue facing the Rams right now.

                                Which way are we going and how far must we fall before considerable changes are made.

                                I know I am the minority in this but I think that head coaches should not be given the lead way they are given when it comes down to hiring their staff. To many of them use the good old boy system of repaying people who employed them in another era or just want to help out a buddy. Sure it's noble to repay someone for helping you out along the way but at what expense? When is it ok to say no? If i'm not mistaken didn't Martz also hire a high school coach out of San Diego using the same good old boy system?

                                The statement made by Martz regarding calling the defense on the one play when the Rams were torched for a TD last week Vs. Miami didn't make a lick of sense and when something doesn't make sense someone is usually lying. Anyone believe Martz's statement or can you now see the cover-up taking place for Marmie or more specifically Martz's decision to hire...
                                -11-07-2004, 09:49 PM
                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Looking At The Talent Issue
                                by Guest
                                Let’s put this into more of a prospective instead of a blanket statement regarding talent. First of all the title of the thread "I don't buy this no talent thing" alludes to the Rams having no talent. When I first replied to that thread I was in the mind-set that “No talent” really meant less talent which is undeniably true.

                                Each year you go back, the Rams have been raped for players and we have been so inept in the draft that our talent level has suffered. This does not mean that the Rams defense is without talent, this simply means that our talent is not at the level it was in the past.

                                Do I really need to go over each position and compare what we had in talent to what is on the field now? I won’t because I trust that everyone is clear on this. As far as the talent this team has, sure they all have at one time or another shown they can play, however the "one time or another" part is the problem. To say the Rams have all this talent because someone picked up a fumble and scampered 40 yards for a td six weeks ago or because someone had a sack or two in one game out of 9 is reaching as far as declaring that player has as much talent as someone who played that position in the past.

                                One thing we all seem to agree on is what really ails the rams and that is motivation. Where I disagree is I think Martz is finally trying to address this problem albeit it may be too late but he is putting emphasis on being ready and fired up something he has shunned in the past. This has been my gripe since 2000 and while many pointed to the Rams W/L record as proof that I was full of it, I denounced the Rams achievements as underachievement.

                                Martz fell into a crop of talent like no other coach I can remember and because of the tremendous talent the Rams had, the Underachievement during his rein has gone unnoticed by many. This of course is why you cannot simply look at the W/L record as the end all be all as far as how good a coach is.

                                Now what you’re seeing is the inauguration of Martz into the parity level where coaches have to get at least the potential out of the players that he has and if he is worth his salt should be able to get more. What Martz is learning is he cannot get to these levels without motivation.

                                Some believe that the Rams were the model of motivation because they won in the past now suddenly Martz cannot motivate them anymore. Wrong. This team under Martz has ignored motivation and now you’re seeing the alarm go off because now that the Rams possess talent equal to other teams in the league and far less then in the recent past the inevitable has become reality.

                                To make matters worse he has hired a DC that has never shown that he can motivate a defense. Martz has now put the onus on himself to get the team motivated because he sees that there is nobody in the organization capable of doing it. Can he do it? Can he pull...
                                -11-25-2004, 10:46 PM
                              • Guest's Avatar
                                The Fire Within
                                by Guest
                                THE FIRE WITHIN

                                Congruence: The relationship between your words and your actions.
                                Or
                                Walk your talk.

                                Talent is necessary however motivation is the fire that begins from a smoldering ember. Without fanning the ember into a flame, that ember will continue to smolder. The Rams have shown a smoldering ember that is capable of roaring into a bonfire. This was apparent in the final minutes of the Seattle game, in San Diego two years ago and against San Francisco in the final Monday Night football game of that same season.

                                So what fanned those flames into bonfires within each of the players on those days? My guess is embarrassment. Embarrassed due to being apart of a grossly underachieving team.

                                What fanned the flames of the New England Patriots when they upset the heavily favored Rams in the Superbowl? My guess is urgency.

                                I also theorize that someone on that team (Probably Belichick) saw the urgency and implored that urgency throughout the entire squad.

                                It seems that Mike Martz has recently discovered that talent alone is not enough. It took the Rams to drop to the parity level as far as talent before he emphasized the importance of getting his team up for games.

                                Only after the loss in Miami did he come out and talk about intensity with intensity. I don’t know if anyone else has realized this but the recent articles from the Post Dispatch along with “Martz on the Mike“have shown a noticeable escalation in Martz talking about being up and ready for games.

                                It looks as if he has discovered a new tool in coaching and is now going through the adolescent stages of applying it.

                                What I am refering to when I say "adolescent stages" is hitting on Wednesday before the Seahawk game which to Mike Martz is what fanned the ember into a flame.

                                I think Martz believed that it was the hitting that motivated the team. I believe it was more then that. I think the team was responding to Martz’s intensity more then the hitting itself and that intensity is what carried over into the game against Seattle.

                                My feeling is that Martz may have put to much emphasis on the hitting and never realized that it was his own intensity and urgency that fanned the ember into a roaring fire.

                                In sum Mike Martz may have had the illusion that all he had to do to get his team up was hit on Wednesday; not realizing the intensity he himself brought on the prior Week.

                                I know there are a lot of fans here on the board that measure everything by wins and losses. This was oh so very apparent during the Warner Bulger debates. At that time, I was not compelled to look at the W/L column to base my feelings on. I saw a very good QB that looked to be getting a bum rap and I saw another QB that had great potential who probably felt as bad for Warner as anyone did.

                                What...
                                -11-23-2004, 05:24 AM
                              • RamWraith
                                Martz's remedies need to extend to coaching staff
                                by RamWraith
                                By Bryan Burwell
                                Of the Post-Dispatch
                                11/09/2004

                                So as we have reached the critical midway point of the 2004 NFL season, it's time for a little review. The Rams' offensive line can't block a fire exit. Their defense gets exploited regularly. And because I am a positive person, let me be the first to note that the Rams' special teams haven't botched any kick coverage in the last 12 hours (I think), nor surrendered a single touchdown pass thrown by an opposing team's backup long snapper in months.

                                So now that it's painfully obvious that the 4-4 Rams are a broken and flawed football team, what we need to know now are the answers to two very important questions as they head into the second half of the season:

                                1. How do they fix it?

                                2. Can they fix it?

                                On Monday morning, as he sat in his Rams Park second-floor office, Mike Martz finished reviewing game tapes of Sunday's 40-22 debacle against the New England Patriots and began answering those pressing questions with a very systematic, analytical process. After scrutinizing hours of game tape, Martz met with his coaching staff and he met with his players. Then after carefully listening, observing and analyzing every scrap of forensics from this mess of a half-season, the boss essentially came to this conclusion:

                                It can be fixed, and he has the available tools to fix it.

                                Oh yeah, and there was just one other valuable little tidbit that we thought we ought to share with you . . .

                                Our favorite gray-haired football eccentric is mad as hell and he ain't gonna take it anymore.

                                "You guys have been here long enough to know that I've never tried to mislead you or sugarcoat anything," Martz told a room full of reporters at his Monday afternoon news conference. "If I've screwed something up I'll tell you. I'll try to take a bullet (for players) when you can to help them. (But) there comes a time when some of these guys have just got to ... show up and make a play. That's not a cop-out or brushing it off onto (the players). But I'm upset. We've got some guys we're counting on and they've got to step up."

                                There is no greater theatre than a Monday afternoon Martz news conference following a Rams loss. But this one was better than others, exceptionally rich with subtle insight and read-between-the-lines intrigue. To the untrained eyes and ears, it sounded a whole lot like Martz was just lashing out at his players, and placing all the weight of the world on their shoulders.

                                Yet to veteran Martz-ologists who understand his rhythms, moods and intentions, these were not the blame-shifting ramblings of a desperate man in his final days. This was a strategic angry declaration of a head coach who still believes he can lead this team out of its misery. And is it possible that we also might have been hearing a few subtle...
                                -11-09-2004, 01:18 PM
                              • LaRamsFanLongTime
                                It must stop here
                                by LaRamsFanLongTime
                                After a terrible loss like this once again things will fall on Martz. This is the time that he needs to make his big adjustments and show the Rams are still the Rams. My biggest question for him is what happened to spreading the feild. The Rams have a lot of speed still. Bring in Mcdonald for some 5 receiver sets. Hell use Jackson out there. I know I know in order for that to work the o line needs to step up right? Yes and no. If you remember the Rams biggest threat with the greatest show on turf was the quick slants then play makers being play makers. So far this offence looks like any other offence. Bring back the flair the crazy plays this offence has what it takes to
                                execute Mad Mike Martz' crazy offensive schemes they just need a chance.

                                TIME and TIME again we see terrible challenges and poor clock management.
                                This has gone on for way to long. Someone needs to simply put it to Martz in a way he could understand. Here I will try. STOP THE BS CLOCK MANAGEMENT AND BAD CHALLENGES. THE GUY IN THE BOOTH WILL CALL YOU AND SAY WHEN YOU SHOULD CHALLENGE. WHEN THE BALL GOES 14 YARDS ON THE ONSIDE KICK YOU DONT CHALLENGE.

                                Torry Holt and Issac Bruce damn I love these guys. But what happened to the runs after the catch. As soon as the defensive player gets anywhere near them they dive like a qb. They used to run and make plays. People say look at the way they protect the ball. Well I see that only when you are gonna get hit right when you catch it. If that is not the case make a play.
                                The runs after the catch are needed for the spreading of the feild to work.

                                Defence well what can I say? They totally need to step up and do things differently. I think this falls a little on Martz as well. They need to cover the middle alot better. The middle was void of defender's the whole game. Draws will eat us up all year if this continues. It all basically just seeem to fall on over pursuit and blitzes w/o anyone in the box. I hate to say it but the safeties really looked bad today. If they cannot hold down the fort who can.
                                -09-19-2004, 02:02 PM
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