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  • QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    The media loves a running QB.

    So do the fans.

    Give them a Michael Vick, a Tim Tebow or... the most recent example, an RGIII, and they can't get enough.

    But, riddle me this, Batman... how many running QBs have won the Super Bowl?

    Let's define the term first.

    I'm not talking about "mobile QBs" who can scramble a bit or move their feet well in the face of a pass rush. I'm talking about QBs who, when pressured, will tuck the ball and run, or who have running plays frequently called for them.

    The QBs who have had the most success in the big game... Starr, Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman, Brady... none of them were or are running QBs.

    Others who you might find on "best QB" lists... Favre, P.Manning, Marino, Fouts, Brees, Warner... none of them were or are running QBs.

    And, yet... fans and the media always seem to want to declare the latest running QB as the "next wave" of the position.

    In the end, some things just don't change. The QB position is about standing in the pocket and making throws. That's what wins championships.

    Even if the running QBs get the most face time on SportsCenter, its the pocket QBs that bring home the ring.
    Last edited by AvengerRam_old; -09-15-2012, 09:59 PM.

  • #2
    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Steve Young.

    Joe Montana.

    Brett Favre did not run a whole lot at the end of his career, but he did when he was going to super bowls.

    Of course, a QB needs to be able to throw the ball, that is a given. But the ability to make plays with one's legs, and to be mobile both within and without the pocket, is certainly a plus.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

      Only two "running quarterbacks" I can think of who accomplished anything are Steve Young and Elway and I don't think either of them fall under the category of QBs who run at the first sign of trouble. And both of them are hall of famers because of their arm and not their feet.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

        Originally posted by DE_Ramfan View Post
        Only two "running quarterbacks" I can think of who accomplished anything are Steve Young and Elway and I don't think either of them fall under the category of QBs who run at the first sign of trouble. And both of them are hall of famers because of their arm and not their feet.
        Elway is another one. Aaron Rodgers had 356 yards rushing in the year he went to the super bowl.

        Certainly, a QB has to be good at throwing the ball, but the ability to pick up a first down (or even the threat of doing so) and/or extend the play with mobility is a pretty nifty thing for a QB to have in their back pocket. Also, the ability to run plays from a moving pocket, or outside of the pocket (sprint right option, etc) adds another dimension to the offensive game plan, as well as forcing a defense to account for it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

          RG3 isnt a pure rushing QB,he is already as a rookie a better pocket passer than Vick is to this day.He doesnt run at the first sight of trouble,he just has the ability to make,extend plays with his legs.I like this kid i think he has the talent,but when the pressure is on lets see how much he starts scrambling around.The media likes running qbs because they are just a interesting topic,they arent the norm so they get talked bout its just the culture of broadcasting really.But i wont throw RG3 in this category yet he played well within the pocket last week,ill give him this full season before i determine if i considers him a "running quarterback".

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

            Originally posted by mark.a View Post
            Steve Young.
            Borderline running QB.

            Joe Montana.
            Not a running QB.

            Brett Favre did not run a whole lot at the end of his career, but he did when he was going to super bowls.
            Favre was never a running QB.

            Of course, a QB needs to be able to throw the ball, that is a given. But the ability to make plays with one's legs, and to be mobile both within and without the pocket, is certainly a plus.
            And if you actually read my original post, you'd realize that this is not a relevant point.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

              Originally posted by 39WillRunYaOva View Post
              RG3 isnt a pure rushing QB,he is already as a rookie a better pocket passer than Vick is to this day.He doesnt run at the first sight of trouble,he just has the ability to make,extend plays with his legs.I like this kid i think he has the talent,but when the pressure is on lets see how much he starts scrambling around.The media likes running qbs because they are just a interesting topic,they arent the norm so they get talked bout its just the culture of broadcasting really.But i wont throw RG3 in this category yet he played well within the pocket last week,ill give him this full season before i determine if i considers him a "running quarterback".
              He ran the ball 9 times in his first regular season game.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                Steve Young has the 3rd most rushing yards by a QB, and is first in rushing TD's by a QB. If that makes him a borderline running QB, then perhaps I do not understand your definition.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                  Steve Young was the original running QB. Only two other QB's have more rushing yards, Vick and Cunningham. Anyone who says he is not, has NO CLUE what they are talking about.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                    Originally posted by AvengerRam View Post
                    He ran the ball 9 times in his first regular season game.
                    What's your point. They took advantage of ONE of his strengths. They rans some of his college plays. They had pistol formations, ran some options. But if you took the time to watch the game, he threw when he could have ran.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                      Originally posted by mark.a View Post
                      Steve Young has the 3rd most rushing yards by a QB, and is first in rushing TD's by a QB. If that makes him a borderline running QB, then perhaps I do not understand your definition.
                      I guess you don't.

                      A running QB is one with the proclivity to run (as opposed to merely having the ability to run).

                      Young would tuck and run with some frequency, but I think in the Bill Walsh offense, he was less inclined to run.

                      The same could be said about Elway. By the time he won his Super Bowls, his proclivity to run was greatly diminished.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                        Originally posted by IBleedBnG83 View Post
                        What's your point. They took advantage of ONE of his strengths. They rans some of his college plays. They had pistol formations, ran some options. But if you took the time to watch the game, he threw when he could have ran.
                        Nine runs is a lot for a QB, and certainly suggests a proclivity to tuck and run. My point, however, was that we have one game of data, which is hardly enough to reach a conclusion regarding what type of QB RGIII will be in the long run. Right now, based upon his college proclivities and his first game, I'd call him a running QB.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                          I don't know if RG3 is a running QB or a pass first QB. I do know if he keeps running that option he will be missing time due to the extra punishment he takes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                            Originally posted by IBleedBnG83 View Post
                            Steve Young was the original running QB. Only two other QB's have more rushing yards, Vick and Cunningham. Anyone who says he is not, has NO CLUE what they are talking about.
                            Actually, you're the one without a clue. Young and Cunningham ran for a lot of yards, but that was due, in part, to their longevity. Their pass to run ratio was fairly comparable (Young 4.75 to 1, Cunningham 4.53 to 1).

                            The QBs I identified as running QBs (by my definition) have much lower pass to run ratios:

                            Tebow: 2.07 to 1
                            Vick: 3.52 to 1

                            We have one game of data for RGIII, but his ratio in that game was 2.88 to 1. We'll see if that continues to be the trend or not.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

                              Seeing nine rushing attempts in the box score might lead someone to believe Griffin has a propensity for taking off and trying to run it himself when pressured, but what happened with Griffin on the field doesn't, IMO.

                              This is a case where the stats don't tell the whole story, because many of those runs were designed run plays or Griffin trying to recover from a botched play, which doesn't fit the description of a quarterback dropping back to pass and running when pressured.

                              Someone on YouTube has actually spliced together every play involving Griffin, pass or run, into a convenient eight-minute video:



                              After watching the entire thing, I count only two plays that appear to be a designed pass play in which Griffin drops back and then decides to run it himself. That doesn't seem like a lot at all, at least not to me.

                              In fact, it's worth pointing out that, on a third down play in the second quarter, Griffin bought time by running to the side and nearly crossed the line of scrimmage to take off and run for a clear first down, only to stop himself, reset his feet, and complete a pass to Santana Moss down the field for 27 yards. He actually displayed the exact opposite of tucking and running at the first sign of pressure; he bought time and bypassed a chance to run in order to make a good throw down the field.

                              I agree with the primary argument being made in the thread - historically, it's the "pocket passers" who are consistently among the best and most successful in the league, and while "running quarterbacks" are exciting to watch, throwing the ball downfield has always been and likely will remain the quarterback's best route to success.

                              Having said that, in the case of RGIII and his Week One performance, his inclination seems to be to stay behind the line and pass the ball, as many of his rush attempts were actually by design and not an example of a quarterback bailing on a pass play to run the ball himself.

                              Comment

                              Related Topics

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                              • Rampingitup
                                Interesting observation about QBs from Steve Young
                                by Rampingitup
                                During the pregame show for Monday night football Steve Young had some interesting things to say about Quarterbacks that I thought was relevant to us, seeing as how the Rams are in need of getting a QB. Whether you like Bulger or not, yes we need a new franchise QB. To start right away or learn behind a veteran.

                                A lot of people get very excited about very mobile QB's ala Vick, Young during his day, McNabb and so on. Many folks here on the forum have been screaming for having a mobile QB to make up for issues with the o-line. But the one thing that brought it all around for me was Steve's comment when they were talking about Vince Young.

                                His comment was that as mobile as scrambling QBs are, they only really become great QBs when they learn how to be a good pocket passer. The way the game works and is played you can be an athletic prodigy and make plays, keep plays alive, and create opportunities with your feet. But if you are unable to work from the pocket as well, you will not achieve your full potential. He makes the point that if you look at all the seriously successful QBs, including the scrambling types, they only really become outstanding once they also became good pocket passers. He said he went through it himself. One of the examples he mentions is McNabb, that early in his career he was a primarily mobile type of QB with poor pocket skills. As his pocket skills developed he became a much more efficient and winning QB. And that is his advice to Vince Young, yes it is great to be able to use your feet when things break down, and it does give you options, but you have to be good in the pocket to be ultimately successful.

                                So when we start looking for a new QB, yes having someone who is very athletic and mobile, gives us some desirable options, but we need someone who is balanced and able to work from the pocket as well.

                                I am not all that up on any of the prime candidates coming into the draft. I think we need to use the 1st pick on something other than QB, maybe even trading down a little and getting some talent for other positions, like DT and RB. I think that a number of the QBs are going to be available in later rounds.
                                -11-24-2009, 01:21 PM
                              • EvilXenu
                                QBs should be measured by "Situation Handling."
                                by EvilXenu
                                There are so many stats for QBs floating out there.

                                You have the raw numbers (attempts, completions, yards, TDs, etc.).

                                You have ratings (QB rating, total QBR, etc.).

                                You can go by wins and losses.

                                You can go by playoff performances.

                                But, to me, it comes down to how a QB plays in key situations. The situations handling factor (which, I believe, is the best objective description of the "it factor") is what really sets apart the average from the good, and the good from the elite.

                                So how do you measure the Situation Handling (SH) It factor?

                                Well, when you're talking SH It factors, you really should just go on your observations. I think most of us know a QB with a good SH It factor when we see one. While you can certainly argue about the SH It factor of a particular player, even casual fans can point out a QB who has that SH It factor.

                                So, forget the complicated stats.

                                Its all about the SH It factor.
                                -11-07-2012, 12:03 PM
                              • Ram Dragoon
                                Hybrid verse Conventional: Convention verses Asymmetric
                                by Ram Dragoon
                                Put 2018 season in the books save for the Championships and Super Bowl, but its safe to conclude the following:

                                First up are the hybrid QBs in the league. Watson and Jackson thus far have followed in the foot steps of RG III, Kaepernick, Cordell Stewart, Vick, and Cunningham--they ended up with winning seasons but couldn't get it done when it really matters, the playoffs. Of that list only Kaepernick made it to the Super Bowl (and lost) and is no longer and no long relevant to the game (forget his political views--coaches see the same faults I saw when he was playing; Kaepernick can't read defenses!)

                                Only R. Wilson who could be considered a semi-hybrid QB has shown any long term success but when asked to put the game on his arm, he often falls short. There was really no secret why the Squawks adopted a new game plan midseason of run, run and more run first--its because Wilson wasn't getting the job done as a true QB. His legs can buy time to allow him to throw the ball but disciplined defenses maintaining their coverage often would thwart the Squawks passing game. The early part of 2018 season bares that out. With Watson & Jackson their QB skills where questionable and when those skills where needed, they where found wanting. At least Wilson won a Super Bowl. He won one because his running ability was an added asset like Steve Young. Ironically Wilson also lost a Super Bowl because of his arm or lack of QB sills in the waning moments of a Super Bowl.


                                Compare all those QBs to the ones who made it to the second round in the playoffs....Goff, Breese, Brady, Prescott, Rivers Mahomes and Luck. Prescott is a poor man's shadow of R. Wilson and is not a franchise QB on any level and was it surprising Prescott failed miserably against the Rams? NO! Lack of a ground game put the ball win or loss squarely on Prescott's shoulders and in his arm. In terms of playoff level of play it was an epic failure along with Luck and Rivers. Perhaps the problem with hybrid QBs is not their athletic talent, but their maturation in developing an understanding of the game, reading defenses, and making pin-point throws. A Goff or a Brady are not going to run for 50 yards in a game, nor is a Rivers or Breeze. They have to get better as QBs because that is all they have as assets as players they have. Its what they learn and don't learn that makes a difference in contender or pretender.

                                Why do teams keep going back to the hybrid style of QBs? I really don't know. The Red Skins got one good season out of RG III then bust; The 49whiners got really one good season out of Kaepernick and bust, the same with Cunningham, and a few good seasons with Vick. My memory is foggy with C. Stewart but over all another bust at a hybrid QB. There have been other "mobile" QBs in the league that have made it but as time wears on less and less running for their lives or to make plays. Mahomes will be an...
                                -01-13-2019, 03:14 PM
                              • berg8309
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                                by berg8309
                                With the recent thread on Walterfootball's assessment of Bradford vs. Clausen, I thought it would be a good time to ask what everyone values in a QB. Obviously different people have different qualities they rate higher than others, for instance Walterfootball values arm strength, and I value accuracy. I have put together a list of what I deem important traits in a QB. Note that not all of these are things I believe you can measure from an armchair, and it is not exhaustive, just a top 8.

                                1. Decision Making - No matter what your physical tool set is, accurate, gun for an arm, speed demon, all of the above, if you make poor decisions, you will be a poor QB, end of story. This includes everything from not throwing into too much coverage, to knowing when to cut losses and throw the ball away.

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                                3. Intangibles - Successful QBs don't roll in at noon and leave at 2. First in, first out, or close to. You need a guy who not only loves the game and cares about being the best (Or trying to be) but who has his head on straight outside the game as well. You will crash and burn at QB with no work ethic. I initially had this lower, but then I thought about QBs like LeaF and Russell who just don't care. They had the skill sets, but their loafer attitude made them bad QBs.

                                4. Release - I value this higher than arm strength because a quick release can make up for a certain amount of lack of arm strength on short and intermediate routes. A quick release gives D-linemen less time to put their hands up, and coverage backs less time to read and react. Angle of release is also important in terms of how well the ball travels, and how likely it is to get batted down at the line.

                                5. Arm strength - Although I believe you can get away with just adequate arm strength, I will readily admit that if you have to float balls because you can't throw hard enough, you are going to have a bad time. Floating balls are easy to pick off, or at least get a hand on. You want to be accurate, but you don't want to give too much time for the defense to get in front of it. Also helpful for stretching the field when you need a desperation play, or have a speed receiver who finds himself with a mismatch.

                                6. Footwork - I am not good at identifying good footwork, I admit that. However I will also admit that it is important. Bad footwork can lead to falling down, missed handoffs, failed play action, and an assortment of other problems with throwing a good ball and hiding it from the defense as long as possible.

                                7. Football I.Q. - Good QBs can...
                                -04-19-2010, 04:24 PM
                              • Guest's Avatar
                                The more gutless the higher ranking
                                by Guest
                                M.Bulger
                                AT CP YDS T LG I RAT
                                53 35 448 2 56 1 97.1

                                B.Favre
                                AT CP YDS T LG I RAT
                                27 18 215 3 29 0 127.9

                                Your opinion:
                                Remember the QB rating is what is used as the “end all be all” in figuring how talented a QB is. Furthermore it is used to list a QB's greatness over history. Obviously you would agree that It doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of talent to throw passes that travel less then 10 yards at least not as much as a QB that is constantly throwing downfield 15, 20, 25 yards thus staying in the pocket longer taking more hits resulting in more interceptions and playing with more pain. As it is now, the dink passers are rating higher then players like Unitas, Starr Otto Graham, Van Brocklin, Stabauch, Bradshaw and others. Was Steve Bono really Better then these guys? Was Boomer? If you go by the QB rating system (which is what the NFL points to as a measurement of a quarterbacks greatness) then the answer is a resounding yes, Bono was better then those QB’s listed. Or is the QB rating system the single Biggest farce in the measure of a QB's talent there is. Why should the system so heavily favor the cowardly offensive system? If it were to favor any system (and I’m not saying it should) shouldn’t it favor the braver system?

                                I'd like to know who devised this system however nobody seems to know.
                                (read: rating without representation)

                                Your opinion:
                                Should the QB rating system be reformulated such as:

                                1. Stop giving QB's credit for the RAC (run after catch) and give them the yards the ball travels in the air? In other words do not credit a quarterback for yards he has nothing to do with? At least when rating their overall talent in the QB rating system?

                                2. Add into the formula how well QB's recognize blitzes?

                                3. before the formula spits out the results should it take into account the risk of the pass? In other words should a Hail Mary interception at the end of a half or end of a game have the same effect on the QB rating system as a pass thrown 5 yards downfield and is returned for a TD?

                                4. Should a minus two yard completion be positive points in the rating?

                                5. Noting that we are in the computer age and keep stats seemingly for everything do you believe it would be a logistical nightmare to take into account the “Run After Catch” (that is length of completion without the run) and perhaps putting less emphasis on completion percentage since any monkey can play catch standing 5 yards apart?





                                Here is a snippet from an article on the rating system

                                But what gives with the *****? Sure, Young and Montana were studs -- but come on. Here's what gives. It started in the late 1970s, when the NFL began bending the rules to favor passers.
                                The "illegal chuck" rule forced defenders to back...
                                -11-30-2004, 03:28 AM
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