No announcement yet.

A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

    In 2001, the majority of people going into Super Bowl XXXVI thought that the Rams were the better team by far. Even after the Patriots kicked their timeless field goal to squeek out a win, some still believe the 2001 Rams were the better unit. The Rams were heavily favored to take the title, and did not, and I've read many opinions that, when listing the negatives of Mike Martz, include that he got outcoached by Bill Belichick in that game and might have cost the Rams the title.

    Since then, the Patriots have gone 37-11 including setting a record for consectutive wins, another Super Bowl title for the 2003-2004 season, and a subsequent Super Bowl appearance in 2004-2005 that might become a third championship in four years. They are considered the closest thing to a dynasty in modern professional football. In the playoffs over his career, Belichick is 9-1, tying a post-season record held by Vince Lombardi, according to a stat displayed on CBS. With a win on the 6th, he would surpass Lombardi - all this in an era of parody where the salary cap forces teams to lose star players.

    So with all that in the back of your head, does the success of the Patriots organization under Belichick make you rethink how much blame Martz should shoulder for being outcoached in a close Super Bowl match-up? Do you still feel that second year head coach Mike Martz, with one of the most prolific offensive units in NFL history at his side, should have taken down a man that some consider to be one of the greatest coaches in the modern era of football? Or, in hindsight, do you feel like some of the blame should be removed from Martz's shoulders because of how successful Belichick and the Patriots have been?

    I'm interested to see where people stand. I know there are some people who really feel Martz was the major reason the 2001 Rams didn't win the Super Bowl because of his coaching decisions, but I wonder if, in the last few seasons, we've come to see that outcoaching Bill Belichick in the playoffs is no easy task for any NFL head coach.

    And this question isn't one that's forcing you to say Martz either takes blame or he doesn't, but rather asks if you blame him less knowing now what the Patriots are.

  • #2
    Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...


    good luck getting anyone around here to admit to that!


    • #3
      Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

      It's a nice theory but you don't put into perspective that of the 37-11 record since the 2001 Super Bowl, 7 of the losses came in 2002. The Patriots just outfoxed the Rams and Mike Martz in the Super Bowl that year. They didn't even make the playoffs in 2002 and were just 1 game above .500 that year. So, while the Patriots have gone on to great success since winning the Super Bowl in 2001, their dominance didn't really kick in until 2003. That's when their ridiculous winning streak really started.

      Remember, Pittsburgh was 15-1, at home and were still 3 point underdogs today. The Rams were in a dome and 17 point favorites. They got outcoached, outplayed, hindered by the ref's and were very embarrassed by an inferior team. Just because the Patriots are dominant now doesn't mean they should have won that Super Bowl.


      • #4
        Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

        I think letting go of that Super Bowl will make a few folks feel a whole lot better.



        • #5
          Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

          I still think the Rams should have won that game, but I agree that the game no longer looks like one of the "All Time Upsets" as it was spun at the time.


          • #6
            Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

            Ol Rain Man is 3-4 in POST SEASON GAMES....hes been OUT COACHED in the post by far LESSOR MEN than Belichick. Lets see...theres the living legend John Fox...first year phenom Jim Mora...cant forget the venerable Jim Haslett either. Your hero gets outcoached on a REGULAR BASIS. Get used to it...if you arent already.
            "You people point your 'f'in' finger and say theres the bad guy....what that make you....good?" Tony Montana


            • #7
              Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

              The continued success of the Pats does show that they were underestimated in 2001. In my opinion the “great upset” was not that great. However we didn’t know it at the time. But Martz still got out coached.

              Clearly the Pats knew that Tagliabue would never let the Super Bowl become a penalty filled event, so the Pats knew that they could get away with holding. Great insight by Belichick.


              • #8
                Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                Originally posted by Fargo Ram Fan
                Ol Rain Man is 3-4 in POST SEASON GAMES....hes been OUT COACHED in the post by far LESSOR MEN than Belichick. Lets see...theres the living legend John Fox...first year phenom Jim Mora...cant forget the venerable Jim Haslett either. Your hero gets outcoached on a REGULAR BASIS. Get used to it...if you arent already.
                So, let me get this straight. Everytime the Rams lose, Martz gets outcoached. I bet the flipside of your argument Fargo is everytime the Rams win it's in spite of Martz right?


                • #9
                  Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                  Hey guess what, John Fox also out-coached Andy Reid and he has now made it to a Super Bowl. Think about it. Most of the coaches in the NFL have brilliant football minds. Martz and every other single coach is going to get out-coached sometimes. That is just the way it goes.

                  Some of you act like Martz is the only coach in the history of the game to be out-coached. Its quite humorous and my abs thank you very much.


                  • #10
                    Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                    I don't know or should say Martz was out coached ,but his Gameplan was terrible. Basically took Faulk out of the game and he knew the way to beat that secondary was to go no huddle and the Pats would have had to play catch up and that was the way the Rams would win that SB!!!!Bad gameplan and no Balls to change it!!! As for the Pats........The Ball just really seems to bounce their way. I don't see them as that great of team....just alot of luck and it started with the Raider playoff game.


                    • #11
                      Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                      Who's decision was it to bring Martz to the Rams? For some reason I don't know that story.

                      All I know is, after all that's gone on the past five years, excluding 1999, the Rams are just the same old Rams. It sucks to admit it but 1999 was a fluke. One year wonder. Just like in the '80's, the Rams have good teams that get their asses handed to them in the playoffs.

                      It's very depressing and I guess you have to go all the way to the top when it comes to blame. Ownership is the one constant over the last 25 years. Once again though, the Rams are a laughing stock. The butt of MANY jokes and just like I couldn't defend John Robinson's one dimensional, unprepared for the playoffs teams, I can't support Martz's current version of the same thing.

                      I could be a little more lenient about things if the Rams were constantly an underdog. Fighting the odds, overcoming adversity, etc. At this point though, the Rams' biggest enemy is themselves. Does anyone out there have faith that when the chips are down the Rams are going to come through in the end? That Martz will make the right decision when the game is on the line? Put the right people in place to put up a good fight?

                      Regardless of the reasons, the Rams are the "same old Rams" and Martz is the coach who's led us there.


                      • #12
                        Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                        unbelievable. just a steaming pile of crap.


                        • #13
                          Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                          You shouldn't be so hard on yourself Tanus. But, I agree.


                          • #14
                            Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                            Nope, Nope and Nope.


                            • #15
                              Re: A question about the Patriots, Martz, and 2001...

                              just curious Mok, why do you care if people think we are the laughing stock? Clearly making the playoffs 5 out of the last 6 years proves that they know nothing about the game of football. Just because Martz does things differently doesn't mean its wrong. Sure, it doesn't always work and you may not like it, but it's pretty lame to worry about what others think about our team, in my opinion.


                              Related Topics


                              • RamWraith
                                Martz doesn't believe spying charges
                                by RamWraith
                                By Mike Klis
                                The Denver Post
                                Article Last Updated: 02/21/2008

                                INDIANAPOLIS — If it matters, Mike Martz doesn't believe the New England Patriots spied on his walkthrough practice prior on the eve of Super Bowl XXXVI.

                                Interested in the investigation. But not yet convinced he was one of the NFL's most notorious victims.

                                Martz was head coach of the St. Louis Rams, the juggernaut of the 2001 season that was shocked by the heavily underdog Patriots, 20-17.

                                "Maybe it helped them, maybe it didn't," Martz said Thursday at the NFL Scouting Combine he is attending as the San Francisco *****' new offensive coordinator. "But you'll never be able to measure that if they did do that. You're assuming they did that and I choose to believe they didn't do that."

                                The Pats won two more Super Bowls, but have since been caught illegally videotaping opposing coaches' signals by the league. While that transgression cost the Patriots and coach Bill Belichick a combined $1.25 million in fines and a first-round draft pick, a more damaging accusation could be a Boston Herald report that the Pats illegally taped the Rams' final walkthrough before their Super Bowl meeting.

                                The league is negotiating with Matt Walsh, who formerly worked in the Pats' video department until he was fired in 2003. The league wants to know if the Rams' walkthrough was taped, if it was Walsh who taped it, and if he still has that tape.

                                "Of course, I'm interested," Martz said. "I was involved in that. It was my responsibility. I was responsible for a lot of people in that game. I am interested. But I'm going to assume it's totally false. Until they prove otherwise, there's not much to talk about."
                                -02-21-2008, 03:26 PM
                              • RamWraith
                                Rams Didn’t Have A Walk-through?
                                by RamWraith
                                Posted by Mike Florio on April 1, 2008, 8:58 p.m.

                                Here’s an interesting twist on the whole Matt Walsh/Spygate II story.

                                John Czarnecki of suggests that the St. Louis Rams didn’t have a walk-through practice prior to Super Bowl XXXVI. Thus, if they didn’t have a walk-through practice, the New England Patriots couldn’t have videotaped it.

                                Write Czarnecki: “I was in the Superdome on the Saturday in question. The Rams were in their game uniforms, running around and generally relaxing waiting to take their team photo for the Super Bowl. There were wooden risers on the field. . . . If there was a walk-through that day, it was the most disorganized one ever assembled. Many of the players were there to simply unwind and relax and test out the carpet.”

                                We’re a bit confused, for two reasons. First, if there wasn’t a walk-through, why didn’t Czarnecki raise this, you know, two months ago? Second, what of those reports that the Rams had a walk-through practice that focused on goal-line offense and short-yardage plays?

                                Another point raised by Czarnecki makes much more sense to us. “Mike Martz was extremely nervous about practicing at the Saints’ facility because he feared Jim Haslett and his staff would be taping his practices,” Czarnecki writes. “He wanted their coaches removed from the building. That didn’t happen, but all of the windows that faced the practice field had their drapes closed. Remember, this was a time when Haslett, now the Rams defensive coordinator, and Martz really didn’t get along. There was a real rivalry between the two and their teams.

                                “So yes, Martz was concerned about being videotaped, but it was by the Saints’ staff, not the Patriots.”

                                The bigger point here, which has been made on consecutive days by Pats owner Robert Kraft and coach Bill Belichick, is this — if Matt Walsh has evidence of anything improper happening in connection with Super Bowl XXXVI, Walsh needs to come forward with it. It’s unfair to the Patriots for this vague notion that they swindled the St. Louis Rams out of a Super Bowl to hang over the franchise indefinitely.

                                And hang over the franchise it will. Unless Walsh shows his hand, there will be casual fans who will be saying years from now that the Patriots cheated in Super Bowl XXXVI.

                                Of course, there might be casual fans who’ll be saying that even if Walsh is proven to have no proof. But there will be far more of them if Walsh never talks.

                                That’s why the league and the Patriots need to call his bluff, give him a guarantee that he won’t be sued into the Sixteenth Century after he says whatever he has to say, and see what he has to show and/or tell.
                                -04-02-2008, 03:37 PM
                              • RamDez
                                Super Bowl reunion for Rams, Patriots
                                by RamDez
                                Franchises haven't met since New England's upset

                                The Associated Press

                                ST. LOUIS - The last time the St. Louis Rams and New England Patriots played, everything was at stake.

                                In their heyday as the Greatest Show on Turf, the Rams were the oddsmakers’ two-touchdown favorite in the 2002 Super Bowl. They were one of the biggest favorites to fall, losing 20-17 on Adam Vinatieri’s 47-yard field goal as time expired.

                                “I still remember just turning around and watching that ball sail through the uprights and all of that confetti falling in the wrong color,” defensive tackle Tyoka Jackson said. “That’s the memory I’ll think of always.”

                                Not all of the Rams who were around then have that same depth of feeling. Wide receiver Isaac Bruce said there’s nothing special about facing the Patriots for the first time since then, He doesn’t even think about the game that could have solidified the Rams as one of the great offensive forces in league history.

                                St. Louis won its first Super Bowl after the 1999 season and was attempting to win two championships in a three-year span — something the Patriots subsequently did.

                                “I don’t hold any grudges,” Bruce said. “It’s spilled milk and the milk’s been cleaned up, so you just move on.”

                                Now, the focus is more on the Patriots’ amazing record since then. New England (6-1) had won an NFL-record 18 straight games and 21 in a row counting the postseason before collapsing under the weight of four turnovers in a 34-20 loss to the Steelers last week.

                                The loss was the Patriots’ first since Sept. 28, 2003 against the Redskins.

                                Understandably, they’re more proud of accomplishing what the Rams couldn’t: those two Super Bowls wins.

                                “We’ve always said that you’re defined in this league by championships, and not how many regular season games you win in a row,” linebacker Mike Vrabel said. “People always remember the champion, and that’s our goal every year.”

                                The Rams (4-3) had known Bill Belichick was building something special earlier in the 2001 season when they won 24-17 at New England. After that game, coach Mike Martz referred to them as a Super Bowl-caliber team, and earlier in the game week he called Belichick a “Hall of Fame coach.”

                                “I mean this sincerely when I tell you that he’s the standard we’re all trying to get to,” Martz said. “He may be as good as there’s ever been.”

                                Belichick returns the favor, admitting he’s borrowed aspects of the Rams’ offense over the years.

                                “Don’t get me wrong, we’re not the Rams — not even close,” Belichick said. “The things that we do, we’ve definitely studied a lot of what they’ve done, and used some of it as it applies to what we do.”

                                To start a new streak, the Patriots will have to control an offense that while still greatly respected isn’t as dynamic as it used to be. The...
                                -11-07-2004, 04:05 AM
                              • Curly Horns
                                Spygate to Deflategate: RAMS EXCERPT
                                by Curly Horns
                                This is an excerpt pertaining to the Rams from ESPNs article titled:

                                From Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and New England Patriots apart

                                Then Specter turned to the alleged videotaping of the Rams' walk-through. Walsh confessed that after the Patriots' team picture, he and at least three other team videographers lingered around the Louisiana Superdome, setting up cameras for the game. Suddenly, the Rams arrived and started their walk-through. The three videographers, in full Patriots apparel, hung around, on the field and in the stands, for 30 minutes. Nobody said anything. Walsh said he observed star Rams running back Marshall Faulk line up in an unusual position: as a kickoff returner. That night, Walsh reported what he had seen to Patriots assistant coach Brian Daboll, who asked an array of questions about the Rams' formations. Walsh said that Daboll, who declined through the Patriots to comment for this story, drew a series of diagrams -- an account Daboll later denied to league investigators.

                                Faulk had returned only one kickoff in his career before the Super Bowl. Sure enough, in the second quarter, he lined up deep. The Patriots were ready: Vinatieri kicked it into a corner, leading Faulk out of bounds after gaining 1 yard.

                                During the walk-through, the Rams had also practiced some of their newly designed red zone plays. When they ran the same plays late in the Super Bowl's fourth quarter, the Patriots' defense was in position on nearly every down. On one new play, quarterback Kurt Warner rolled to his right and turned to throw to Faulk in the flat, where three Patriots defenders were waiting. On the sideline, Rams coach Mike Martz was stunned. He was famous for his imaginative, unpredictable plays, and now it was as if the Patriots knew what was coming on plays that had never been run before. The Patriots' game plan had called for a defender to hit Faulk on every down, as a means of eliminating him, but one coach who worked with an assistant on that 2001 Patriots team says that the ex-Pats assistant coach once bragged that New England knew exactly what the Rams would call in the red zone. "He'd say, 'A little birdie told us,'" the coach says now.

                                In the meeting in Specter's office, the senator asked Walsh: "Were there any live electronics during the walk-through?"

                                "It's certainly possible," Walsh said. "But I have no evidence."

                                In the coming years, the Patriots would become baffled by those persistent rumors, which were mostly fueled by a pre-Super Bowl 2008 Boston Herald report -- later retracted -- that a team videographer had taped it. Some media outlets -- including ESPN -- have inadvertently repeated it as fact. According to Patriots spokesman Stacey James, "The New England Patriots have never filmed or recorded another team's practice of walkthrough. ... Clearly...
                                -09-08-2015, 11:14 AM
                              • RamsSB99
                                Where the Rams responsible for the Patriots dynasty the tale of two coaches
                                by RamsSB99
                                I found this interesting:
                                Martz took over a Superbowl team and two years later got beat in the Superbowl by the team Belichick coached and assembled. This started the Patriots dynasty.

                                A few interesting things to ponder:

                                1. What might have happened if Martz went to the Patriots? How do you think they would have done? Better/Worse/Same

                                2. Do you think Vermeil would have retired if the FO let Martz go to the Patriots when they seeked to talk to him? Yes/No Instead of telling Martz he was the coach in waiting and offering him more money.

                                3. What might have happened if Belichick came to the Rams as HC and Martz went to the Patriots? Would we have won another superbowl maybe 2001? Yes/No

                                4. Would we have won any more Superbowls with a new coach or OC (2001?) if Martz left for Patriots? Yes/No (Patriots would not have had Belichik who molded\coached the 2001 team that beat us).

                                There really is no way to tell however I was just wondering what some peoples gut feeling was on some of these interesting scenarios....
                                -01-09-2008, 07:54 PM