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  • Simple question on Pace

    This topic IS worthy of beating what is hopefully not a dead horse.

    We are an 8-8 team that won a playoff game that had MAJOR problems on our offense line last year. Our best defensive player may or may not be incarcerated by the time we start the season. Cap or no cap, exactly HOW is trading away our best offensive lineman, and one of the best in the league, a guy who even if he didnt have his best season got beat only a handful of times all year and NEVER requires double team help on the qbs blind side, going to help our chances of improving the team in 2005 and beyond. We are not a rebuilding team.

    Furthermore, we still dont have a RIGHT tackle, let alone anyone remotely competent to replace pace. IF we get another left tackle, as avenger says, that is one thing, but the odds of getting a guy even in the same ballpark as pace for 2005 are very, very limited in my view.

    Guys its about performance, even if he isnt willing to discount to market to stay with the team, even if he is selfish, even if he is a distraction, how exactly do you figure that we are better off without him.

    If we spend the money we save on defense, how are we going to protect the qb.

    How much do you think we are actually going to save under the cap. Pace costs 8.2 under the tender. What do you think its going to cost to replace him. Until you replace him, you dont know what the net savings are, and given what left tackles go for these days, i dont think we are going to save anywhere near what some people think we are going to save, and we will in all liklihood be overpaying for inferior talent.

    Very, very sensitive subject for me, i think when people talk about the Big Three that won us the sb title and led to the great run this team has had, Pace is so often overlooked as to the critical nature of his contribution.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel

  • #2
    Re: Simple question on Pace

    It comes down to economics. If Pace takes a deal the FO can afford this year and next (Turley's dead money), then sign him long-term, even if it is for more than the Jones deal. I've always agreed that is option 1. But if he is still being unreasonable, I don't know what other choices we have, but to continue to franchise and look for a trading partner. I mean we can't get blood from a turnip, and if that is all he will sign for, we don't have another choice. Again, 1st option is to get him signed. I just hope all parties come to an agreement within the next 48 hours.
    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Simple question on Pace

      Point(s) well taken, HUb, GC.

      But not as simple as proposed. It requires pondering, study and, yes, speculation. :tough:

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Simple question on Pace

        Depending on what we get, we COULD be better without Pace. However, his attitude is not good AND since he NEVER plays a mini-camp, training camp, or Pre-season - a devasting injury could be right around the corner. That's possible too, he's not getting any younger.

        I knew it was time for Pace to go when after missing Mini-camp, Training Camp and Preseason (when he knew he had to come in or miss a game check), he reported two days before our first game. If you remember we had many injuries on the O-Line and Martz made it known in the media (reads pleading to Pace) that the O-line would be better off if Grant Williams could practice (and Play) at his position instead of having to fill in for Pace. Still Pace shows up two days ahead of time when.. You know he didn't want to work a full week. Pace is looking out for number one (not a team player) and that stuff rubs off. Players see that, rookies see that and players settle in to doing what's best for them individuallly instead of concerning themselves with winning.

        I think Pace played at an Average level for a OLT in 2004. He's not as hard to replace anymore. If we get a starter for the secondary and a First round pick (to replace) Pace, we are better off. Yes, unloading his Franchise-for-life tag plays into the equation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Simple question on Pace

          Originally posted by Tony Soprano
          I think Pace played at an Average level for a OLT in 2004.
          I disagree. I think he played at a poor level by Orlando Pace standards, but probably still played better than a moderate majority of LTs in this league.

          I think GC has a great point. Like it or not, cap or not, we're going to see a rather large dropoff in play if we deal Pace. We're not going to save a huge amount if we drop him and go to FA to get a replacement, looking at what FA tackles are getting on this market. And a rookie isn't going to be able to come in and do well at all, especially out of this class.

          At this point, this is what I'm thinking - if the Rams won't sign Pace to a Jones-like contract because of what it'll do to the cap in 2006, then you find a way to fix the cap in 2006 by restructuring/renegotiating with guys like Bruce, Bulger, Little, etc etc so you have the room to make it work. You don't just throw up your hands and say "Oh well" when the going gets tough.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Simple question on Pace

            With all due respect to our esteemed colleague Mr. Soprano, i do not believe that orlando pace is anywhere near an Average left tackle. Exactly how many times did you see him get beat last year. Did you ever see him require help with his guy? Do you see how often the guy playing opposite pace in a game disappears? I agree with nick, he did not have his best year at all, but to call him average is just way off base in my view. If the front office even thought that was the case, he would have been long gone by now.

            Again, i appreciate its about economics. Remember, the rams have to be reasonable also. Pace's value is NOT really determined by other cap problems the rams have. Can he give a little? Sure. Does anyone doubt at this point that if Pace was an unrestricted free agent that did not require compensation he would get way more money than we are offering him?

            general counsel

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            • #7
              Re: Simple question on Pace

              Originally posted by Nick
              You don't just throw up your hands and say "Oh well" when the going gets tough.
              This of course makes the assumption that Pace wants to work this out. I hope he does, but as of yet we've seen very little to prove it.
              And a rookie isn't going to be able to come in and do well at all, especially out of this class.
              I don't think they're as bad as all that are they? Kenyatta Walker, Jeff Backus, Maurice Williams, Matt Light, Jonas Jennings, Stockar McDougal, Marvel Smith, Chad Clifton, Levi Jones, Mike Pearson...all rookie staters that won't rate out as high as Barron and Brown. They're maybe not on the same level as Robert Gallery, Jordan Gross, Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Leonard Davis or Chris Samual (also recent rookie starters), but I think either of them will be effective rookies.
              The more things change, the more they stay the same.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Simple question on Pace

                Originally posted by GC
                Pace's value is NOT really determined by other cap problems the rams have.
                You're right, his value is not bound to our cap problems, but his offer is. Regardless of value, there is only so much blood in our turnip.
                The more things change, the more they stay the same.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Simple question on Pace

                  Originally posted by HUbison
                  This of course makes the assumption that Pace wants to work this out. I hope he does, but as of yet we've seen very little to prove it.
                  I'm still holding out hope that firing the Postons and signing new agents the second the Rams started shopping him at the combine is a sign that he doesn't want to be moved.


                  Originally posted by HUbison
                  I don't think they're as bad as all that are they? Kenyatta Walker, Jeff Backus, Maurice Williams, Matt Light, Jonas Jennings, Stockar McDougal, Marvel Smith, Chad Clifton, Levi Jones, Mike Pearson...all rookie staters that won't rate out as high as Barron and Brown. They're maybe not on the same level as Robert Gallery, Jordan Gross, Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Leonard Davis or Chris Samual (also recent rookie starters), but I think either of them will be effective rookies.
                  My point isn't that a rookie offensive lineman can't start in the NFL. Just that it would be exceptionally difficult for him to start for us... at left tackle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Simple question on Pace

                    GC - Opie got beat at least 3 maybe four times in the Atlanta Game, by Brady Smith (Falcon's DE). He almost got Bulger killed in the latter stages of that game. Granted, the game was out of reach and the O was desperately seeking game breakers, nevertheless, Opie was underwhelming.

                    I like Opie, but he comes with baggage -

                    Missess Mini-Camps and most if not all pre-season games -
                    Becaues of #1 above, he may be a higher risk for serious injury -
                    Lack of leadership -
                    Projects laziness at times - (represents serious risk of injury for Bulger)
                    heavy salary load -
                    Can be a liability (if his head is not screwed on right) -

                    Yah - I know there is no "I" in team, and yet they have to make their money while they can. And I feel for those who get banged up to the point where they have trouble walking, but let's face it, no one is forcing these guys to do this, they love it - they love the $$$$$ and they get paid darn good to play.

                    I guess I expect a lot from a guy making $8MM.....

                    Now tell me again why we need him....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Simple question on Pace

                      He played poorly against the Giants after reporting REAL late in 2003, that was the opening day game when Warner was hammered unmercifully.

                      This year, the Falcons went around him like a turnstile.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Simple question on Pace

                        Originally posted by Tony Soprano
                        He played poorly against the Giants after reporting REAL late in 2003, that was the opening day game when Warner was hammered unmercifully.

                        This year, the Falcons went around him like a turnstile.
                        Tony, I'm glad you're voicing your opinion, and I'm glad you're a Ram fan....but I can't disagree more. The pressure from the Giants came from the inside not LT. And while he did miss Brady Smith a couple of times, he was far from a turnstile. But, hey, those are your opinions, and these are mine...room enough for both.
                        The more things change, the more they stay the same.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Simple question on Pace

                          as a ram fan, i'm inclined to say that i'm put off by pace's perceived laziness and me, me, me stance...but as a ram fan, i don't think pace is an "average" OLT. yes, he had an average year allowing more sacks and pressures than i've ever seen him allow, but it may be more attributeable to missing the training camp and preseason...which brings me back to his perceived laziness and ....well, you get the point...

                          sometimes, it's better off to let go a great player if it means gaining some balance on the team and especially if the move forces the hand of the HC in that he must change his game planning and learn to adapt to new personnel...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Simple question on Pace

                            There is just no way that Pace is an 'AVERAGE' tackle, no way.. point one

                            Point two I'm still holding out that the Rams can get something done with Pace, some how we have to hang on to this guy, yes I don't know what with, but we have to make this work.. or i will be booking Bulger into the nearest hospital, by about week 2, our line was makeshift as it was, without Pace WELLLLL, man this is getting to me!!!!


                            steve :ramlogo:
                            "The breakfast Club":helmet:

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                            • Guest's Avatar
                              Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details
                              by Guest
                              This is for sure the most spirited debate of the off season. Lets do our best not to let the two camps of view get personal with each other as in the bulgerite vs. warnerite debacle of a year ago.

                              I think that there is really no "keep him" or "trade him" answer that makes 100% sense. The devil is in the details.

                              It makes no sense to me to say keep him at any cost and it makes no sense to me to say trade him because he is a bad influence or its time to "get what we can and move on".

                              Bottom line-If we trade him, does it make us a better team than signing him for what he wants or continuing to play the tag game. The answer to that questions is THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

                              We need to know what are we going to get specifically and how specifically is it going to affect our cap. We then compare that to what it does to our cap and our other personnel choices if we pay him what walter jones got.

                              Here is my question for you guys as i do my best to fight through my love for orlando pace and my view of his enormously underated value to the team. If we get the #13 pick (alex barron), a starting right tackle (we need to know the cap value) a #3 pick (who will add depth, play special teams and be a potential future starter) AND save enough cap money to either sign bryce fisher or a safety or interior lineman, are the rams a better team?

                              Your views please.

                              general counsel
                              -03-15-2005, 09:06 AM
                            • Nick
                              How long is too long for Pace and the Postons?
                              by Nick
                              Just thinking out loud here after watching a disappointing Outside the Lines (see General NFL Talk), but the more I thought about the situation, the more I began to wonder...

                              How long is too long when it comes to waiting for Pace and the Postons to reach a reasonable long term contract with the Rams?

                              Obviously with the increasing amount of the franchise tag on Orlando Pace, as well as other players who we might want to retain using that tag, we can't tag Pace year in and year out. This is the second year in a row the tag has been placed on Pace, and while Orlando's comments in March were optimistic about a long-term deal being done this fall, we've yet to see or hear anything from him that would indicate that's still the case.

                              So for a moment, let's assume that Pace signs the tender during the preseason and once again fails to sign a long-term deal. At what point do the Rams begin to look for a viable replacement at left tackle, thus marking the beginning of the end of their dealings with Pace and the Postons? Does such a point exist?

                              Personally, I think that if the Rams and Pace can't reach a long-term deal by next spring when the time to franchise Orlando comes again, the Rams should begin considering alternative answers for the left tackle position. I'll be the first to tell you that Pace is one of the most valuable offensive linemen in the game, but the Rams cannot afford to be held hostage like this for many more seasons. Plus, I believe in the 2005 draft, there will be a number of good (not elite, but very good) tackle prospects, guys like Alex Barron or Jammal Brown, who may not be able to play as well as Pace, but should be very adequate and efficient players. Also, it's hard to tell who might be available in free agency, too.

                              The bottom line is I don't see the Postons bending to lower demands, and I'm not convinced that Pace is going to give them the boot any time soon. As much as the Rams may want to continue tagging Pace year after year (I think an interview with Zygmunt alluded to this), I don't think that's going to be an option after another season or two.
                              -08-09-2004, 12:01 AM
                            • Guest's Avatar
                              Its time for RamTime’s annual *****ing about Pace
                              by Guest
                              Yep it’s that time of year again when we collectively wonder if Pace is team player or not. It looks as if this year will tell a lot. Since he “fired” his agent and Walter Jones has signed there really is no reason for Opie to hold the Rams hostage and should sign a deal before free agency. We shall see but don’t hold your breath because I still maintain the he’s lazy and hates camp enough that he would trade not having to participate in spring training for holding his team hostage. It’s time people start calling this like it looks and stop giving him the benefit of the doubt.

                              Left tackle for sale, abada abada abada Left tackle for sale.... Step right up and feast your eyes on this massive specimen. That's right for 8 million dollars he can be yours for a whole year ahm minus the off season and uhm minus training camp, and uhm minus most of the pre season... abada abada abada Left Tackle for sale....
                              -02-25-2005, 02:07 AM
                            • AvengerRam_old
                              A Pace Solution (This is so crazy it just might work)
                              by AvengerRam_old
                              Here's an idea of how to resolve the Orlando Pace situation. Its a bit "out there," but who knows, maybe its not too far-fetched...

                              Step 1: Offer Pace a lucrative, but reasonable, long-term deal before the deadline for franchising players. Hopefully, he'll accept. If not, go to Step 2.

                              Step 2: Franchise Pace.

                              Step 3: Assuming that the Seahawks franchise Walter Jones, determine whether he would accept the contract offered to Pace. If so, trade the Rams 2005 and 2006 first round choices for Jones, and sign him long-term.

                              Step 4: Trade Pace to a weaker team for their 2005 and 2006 first round draft choices.

                              End Result: Rams would still have first round picks in 2005 and 2006, but presumably would have picks earlier in the draft. They would also have Walter Jones, who is about as good as Pace, signed long-term.

                              Now that, would be a great solution.

                              [NOTE: If no team would give the Rams their next two first rounders for Pace, the Rams would still have Pace and Jones as their tackles, with Pace playing for the franchise tender again.]
                              -02-11-2005, 08:50 AM
                            • RamWraith
                              Pace Preparing for Big Things
                              by RamWraith
                              Saturday, July 28, 2007

                              By Nick Wagoner
                              Senior Writer

                              As Orlando Pace made the short haul from his St. Peters home to the team hotel to report for training camp Thursday, he took a little bit of time to reflect on where he’s been and where he’s headed.

                              With a long term contract extension long since done and his most serious injury essentially healed, Pace had no worries upon his arrival at training camp.

                              “This is something new the past couple of years,” Pace said. “I was just thinking about that on the way here.”

                              Last season was a bit of a career crossroads for the Rams’ All Everything left tackle. Entering his 10th season in the league, Pace had long since established himself as one of the best left tackles in the league and, perhaps, ever.

                              For the first time in years, Pace had a contract completed and was in training camp the entire time and he felt as good as ever. But all of that quickly changed.

                              In Week 2 against San Francisco, Pace suffered a concussion that caused him to leave the game. He played through the lingering effects the next week against Arizona, but sat out against Detroit the following week.

                              Just when Pace thought he had put that behind him, he suffered the worst injury of his career, tearing his left triceps on Nov. 12 at Seattle. Two days later, Pace was put on injured reserve, which officially put him out for the season and brought an end to his streak of seven consecutive Pro Bowl appearances.

                              “That was tough,” Pace said. “It’s just one of those things. In football, you’re going to have injuries like that. I’ve been really fortunate to be healthy enough in my career to have that string going. Hopefully, this season I’ll start it up again.”

                              Soon after the surgery, Pace had surgery on his arm so that he could begin his rehabilitation as soon as possible with the intent on being able to participate in the team’s June minicamp near full strength.

                              Pace was initially taken aback by how long his recovery time was going to be as doctors estimated it to take about six months to get back where he needs to be to compete at the NFL level.

                              So Pace did his best to get back to rehabbing as early as possible, a process made more difficult by the fact that he was unable to really lift weights like most offensive linemen should.

                              Although he was injured, Pace made it a point to stay around the team as much as possible and tutor the younger linemen that were filling in. By the end of the season, that unit had come together and some of the younger players credited Pace for their development.

                              That’s a role Pace says he will continue in this season.

                              “This being my 11th year and know what the left guard situation is like, I am one of the veterans out there and I have to be a leader out there,” Pace said. “I’m really excited...
                              -07-28-2007, 06:32 PM
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