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Why should he take less than walter jones?

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  • Why should he take less than walter jones?

    The only thing that counts in nfl contracts is guaranteed money. We all know that, so lets not get dazzled by the overall contract offer. According to the post dispatch today, the rams offer to pace is "several million less" in guaranteed money then walter jones took.

    Can someone please explain to me why pace should take less than walter jones? Why is pace greedy under these circumstances. Seattle has the same cap issues as we have. The circumstances are virtually identical. Same team entire career, same length of service, same health, same value to their team (we actually have more of a vertical passing offense so if anything pace is more valuable to us) and according to nearly every nfl expert you read, the two guys are about as even in terms of ability and performance as possible.

    I believe it is very clear that walter jones took less than his free market value to stay with seattle. He got a lot of money but less than he would have if he had been a pure free agent with no compensation required. Expecting Pace to take less than what is already a discount to market is just unreasonable.

    It is incumbent on the rams to find a way to offer the same deal that walter jones got. I have said all along and stand by my guns on this. If pace wants a penny more than jones got, someone can criticize his demands. If the rams arent willing to pay what jones took (ie a discounted price for a superstar who took less to stay home) than i blame the rams.

    Sign the Big Man

    general counsel

  • #2
    Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

    I think comparing the situation to Seattle is ludicrous... they are known to overpay for players. Last thing we should do is follow their lead.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

      GC - I do not get the impression that anyone is saying Opie is not deserving of a huge payday. He is imho as well.

      The Rams just cannot continue to be the payor. Too rich for Ram blood! If he want's to stay for slightly less, he has one me over for all time. In Opie's case, I just do not see that as a realistic outcome.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

        Augusta, slightly less than what. That is my point. It appears that he is prepared to stay for less than market rate. But isnt there a point at which you can argue that we arent offering enough.

        As far as saying seattle is known to overpay for players, i dont really understand the reference. I appreciate that they overpaid badly for wistrom, but many people on this board felt that the rams letting wistrom go was a mistake at the time. All teams have overpaid players. Walter Jones is a first rate tackle a multi all pro who got about the same money up front give or take a bit as robert gallery who had never played a down in the nfl. Exactly how is that an overpay el acky?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

          Seattle followed Oakland... and we follow Seattle.. i think not !!

          Seattle have made their bed... the rest of their OL will try and lay in it in the coming years.. after all they do have one of the best lines !! very different to our situation.

          Everyone on this forum thought that we should have made Wiltrom a decent offer... i think there were few who actually thought we should have matched.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

            Originally posted by elAcky
            Seattle followed Oakland... and we follow Seattle.. i think not !!
            Like it or not, that's how it works. Just because the figure is huge and damaging doesn't mean we can demand less and then criticize the guy for not signing for way less than what he could probably get elsewhere.

            If an untested rookie like Robert Gallery can sign a seven year deal worth $60 million with $14 million in signing bonus money, then we need to understand a veteran Pro Bowl tackle is going to cost us some dough.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

              GC - The sum the Rams seem to be offering is just below market (for a player of Opie's stature) and slightly below what Jone's got in Seattle. (that is my understanding anyway)

              For some us (not most or all) the salary you earn is part of the picture, you can accept less, if it does not hurt you financially, you like the job, you like the people you work with (your Team) and you think your sacrafice will result in some form of success in the future (another super bowl perhaps or a bigger payday). To me it is that type of sacrafice and teamsmanship (if you will) that separates the great players and great teams from the rest of the pack.

              You could argue that pro-athletes are above all this - but a job is a job.

              I would have to say that taking a Mil or two less (after taxes) is not going be only decision driver in Opies case.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                I really think we don't give the Rams FO enough credit.. Raiders are a mess when it comes to FA and contract negotiations and right now, their place is exactly where is should be, drafting early. It would have been easy for the Rams FO to succumb to the pressures that these imbiciles have placed on the situation.. but luckily they have used common sense. Sure, Pace can ask for whatever he wants based on his assessment of the market and i'm sure there will be takers... but the simple reality is that we cannot pay Pace that amount of money and expect to go back to the SB any time soon.. I'm sure Pace realises that but, unlike Faulk, i doubt he cares.

                I think looking at the Seattle/Raiders situation, the only thing that i see is 2 franchises heading in the wrong direction e.g. what have Seattle done to improve their receiving corp... why couldn;t they hang onto half their defense.. yet they payed one player on their star OL a whole bunch... i'm sure the rest will want a piece of that soon enough.. They franchise a RB when there is a deep FA and draft pool... totally ilogical to me... maybe their inconsistency is inherited from the men in suits!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                  Originally posted by elAcky
                  I think looking at the Seattle/Raiders situation, the only thing that i see is 2 franchises heading in the wrong direction e.g. what have Seattle done to improve their receiving corp... why couldn;t they hang onto half their defense.. yet they payed one player on their star OL a whole bunch... i'm sure the rest will want a piece of that soon enough.. They franchise a RB when there is a deep FA and draft pool... totally ilogical to me... maybe their inconsistency is inherited from the men in suits!!
                  I'm going to make a couple comments on this...

                  -Seattle, like the Rams, would have looked significantly worse on offense had they not signed Jones to a long-term deal. They acquired more cap room by signing him to the deal they did, based on my understanding.

                  -The Seahawks also reached a deal with their quarterback, who would have entered free agency had they not done something. Basically, their hand was forced.

                  -There's no way Ken Lucas is worth what the Panthers gave him. Yes, he's an up and coming young cornerback. But a six-year deal and nearly $14M in bonus money? No way.

                  -The deal Okeafor actually signed with the Cards... KFFL reports he turned down a similar deal with Seattle. Therefore, I'm assuming to keep him, Seattle would have had to pay more... which I woudn't have done.

                  -As for Alexander, he's on the market. Better to franchise him and try to deal him than let him walk and receive no compensation.

                  -From what I've read, Seattle is currently trying to improve their receiving unit by looking into guys like Travis Taylor. Ed Hartwell is scheduled for a visit, as well as LB Keith Adams and CB Kelly Herndon. It seems to me Seattle's strategy is to try and wait out the initial scramble and go after what's left for lower prices. Can't say I disagree with that strategy.

                  I don't want to turn this into a Seahawks discussion, but I think you're oversimplifying their stance.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                    The reason Pace deserves the same contract as Jones is because he is two years younger and is the staple of our offensive line. Pace wants the guaranteed money because that is his security. If he goes down tomorrow he is going to get that money if he never plays again. I'm not against a trade but, I'm not going to trust putting two rookies or any of the players we have on the left side to protect Bulger. Contrary to what a lot of people think, I think the Rams are close to being a contender again if the defense gets shored up. Considering our drafts the last few years if we did get the 13th pick I have no faith that who the Rams pick will turn out to be a good player. We have several high picks that arent exactly living up to their billing already(Archuletta,Lewis,Pickett,Kenndedy). So are you going to trust that if we trade Pace and get a tackle from the Texans and thier 1st pick we can fill that hole, I'm not. When Pace is in the lineup there are no worries at that position. So if the Texans want him we should get plenty of compensation back from them. Pace does deserve the money because the hole he leaves could be damaging for years to come.

                    GO RAMS RE-TOOL FOR 05 :ramlogo:
                    Aim high Willis, Aim High!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                      i'm under the impression that the rams FO is not going to improve the numbers of their current offer on the table, the reason being that this is their fiscal principle in regards to building and maintaining a viable professional playoff caliber team...

                      they convinced marc bulger to take less than his market value, torry holt and leonard little too...perhaps their selling point is this, play for the rams with cap friendly contracts and be a part of playoff contention every year...otherwise you're welcome to leave for the big bucks elsewhere...

                      this is a risky calculated chance, which unfortunately led to some departures such as london fletcher, grant wistrom, dre bly and others...but it's also the reason why the rams have had the ability to keep the core of this prolific offense to stay together. the players, like holt, bruce, faulk, bulger, little, etc.., opted to forego testing the FA market to play here. i have to believe they must be dissapointed to see pace set to leave, but not crying over it...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                        Pace should take whatever he thinks is fair. Unfortunately what he thinks, or the FO thinks, or the Fans think just never seem to match.

                        It's a tiresome dance. The song is not a classic. And too many toes keep getting stepped on. Team continuity should be a common goal for both the FO and Pace. 3 years later it is time to move on.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                          Seattle is all over the place... it really is as simple as that:

                          your receivers drop catches and cost you games so you keep them around, bring in some 40 yo has been and then cut him.. during FA you pay minimal attention to bringing in help. Your also drafting outside the top spots so the quality WR's will be gone.

                          Lot of quality RB's around, you have a 1500 yd who won't sign... you have an outstanding OL... do what Denver did and trade away for DB or OT.

                          On this, you have one of the leagues best OL, that almost made your RB #1.. so you go out and pay a colossal anount to just one of these guys... Houston should have been talking to Seattle not the Rams. Seattle could have filled that hole with a serviceable player and still have had one of the best lines and running games in the league with just about any starting back that is out there.

                          You go out and spend a crazy amount the year before on a DE that had a mediocre season, not a playmaker but solid... but then you allow a playmaker CB to leave without a fight and while your at it you let your other DE leave..

                          all i see is a mess... sorry.. nothing makes sense with these guys except signing Hasselbeck. They could have done without both Walter Jones and Alexander and still have been a better team on Offense if they brought in a couple of decent WR's. Their defense will be a joke this year.. good for us..

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                            We need that money to pay players committed to the Rams.. Our future stars
                            and to be able to be somewhat aggressive in Free Agency..

                            Pace is on the downside of his career, especially with his workout habits.

                            Imagine his attitude after signing a BIG, FAT GUARANTEED Contract.

                            .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Why should he take less than walter jones?

                              Originally posted by elAcky
                              They could have done without both Walter Jones and Alexander and still have been a better team on Offense if they brought in a couple of decent WR's.
                              You're saying the Seahawks could have let Jones and Alexander walk, bring in one or two decent WRs, and would have been BETTER offensively?

                              Wow, I really disagree with that assessment.


                              Originally posted by Tony Soprano
                              Imagine his attitude after signing a BIG, FAT GUARANTEED Contract.
                              I'm having a hard time imagining, so perhaps you can explain it to me. My guess is that, with a contract signed, Pace would show up to all the offseason workouts and camp like everyone else does, and you probably wouldn't hear much out of him, since he's not the kind of guy who is in the news mouthing off a lot.

                              Comment

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                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Pace on the Open Market
                                by Guest
                                One of the themes that people keep coming back to on Pace is that he should take less to remain a ram, to make the same kind of sacrifices that others have made for the benefit of the squad.

                                Putting aside the issue of how short the careers of these guys are and the beating they take, i want to make a different point. Who says pace isnt prepared to take less, in fact considerably less, than he would get on the open market.\

                                From balzers comments, the issue appears to be mainly the structure of Walter Jones contract and how the front end money affects our cap. I believe that Pace is worth far more than what jones got, because i believe that jones was worth more than what jones got (ie jones took less to stay in seattle than he would have gotten in the open market)

                                Have you guys seen the money that above average players are getting? Does anyone doubt that if Pace were an unrestricted free agent with no compensation required he wouldnt get $20 mill or more up front from someone? Do you really believe that champ bailey, who got $17 million up front is better than Pace (corners age faster than tackles). What about the money robert gallery got and he hadnt played a down in the nfl.

                                Bottom line. Pace's negotiating position Post Poston appears to me to be that he WILL take less than pure open market. We have cap problems due to warner, turley and other decisions we have made and i dont think that the best player on our team, which is pace, should be expected to suffer for that.

                                If we trade him, wait until you see what he signs for with another team and then you can see how much less we offered him than his actual value.

                                There is just no evidence at this point to suggest that pace is demanding full market value. Why should he get less than walter jones just because of our situation. We need to find a way to make it work.

                                Sign the Big Man.

                                general counsel
                                -03-14-2005, 06:16 AM
                              • RamDez
                                Pace, Jones among best left tackles in NFL
                                by RamDez
                                Pace, Jones among best left tackles in NFL By Greg Bishop
                                Seattle Times staff reporter




                                KIRKLAND — They were baking in the Hawaii heat and basking in the Pro Bowl props, just two of the top left tackles in the NFL talking about their families and football and those pesky franchise tags.

                                Walter Jones and Orlando Pace were smiling. Both could sense another vacation lay ahead. They weren't sure, but maybe sometime in August?

                                That franchise tag has become a regular training-camp trump card for two giants paid to be big and strong and make sure the quarterback doesn't get knocked out by someone he cannot see. They are his vitamins, essential to his health, his protectors, essential to his safety. They are the most important cog in his only line of defense.

                                And when they're good — and these two, who both play in Seattle tomorrow when the Seahawks host the St. Louis Rams, are considered among the best in the NFL — they are paid handsomely in one of two ways. By putting their signature on a franchise tender or a long-term contract.

                                Both are searching for the latter. But in the meantime, they can skip camp, report the first week of the season, not lose any money and still make more than almost any other teammate. Jones signed a one-year contract for $7.08 million, and Pace signed for $7.02 million.

                                "I guess that says it's a valuable position," Jones said.

                                "To me, that says that other than the quarterback, the most valuable position on any football team is left tackle," said Mark Schlereth, an ESPN analyst and former lineman. "Just look at the franchise list. You've got your left tackles and your cover cornerbacks, for the most part.

                                "And those guys, guys like Jones and Pace, are so few and far between. That's why they can do what they can do."

                                Skip training camp that so many of their teammates dread. They're that valuable, that important, that vital to offensive success.

                                Schlereth should know. He watches offensive linemen the way most people watch the football, and when he's not analyzing, he's making instructional tapes for his Web site, onlineskills.com.

                                *He watches Jones. He watches Pace. And he sees two big men with nimble feet like a ballerina, best compared to Shaquille O'Neal or an unusual car hybrid.

                                "It's the power of a Hummer with the maneuverability of a Ferrari," Schlereth said. "People don't understand that any lineman worth his salt could play an entire game without shoulder pads. It's about athleticism and recovery. That's what the great ones do. It's what separates them from the also-rans."

                                You don't have to look far to find the proof. The first five words in Pace's media-guide biography are "best left tackle in football."

                                Fair enough. And if Pace is the best, which...
                                -10-10-2004, 01:09 AM
                              • AugustaRamFan
                                On "Pace" or not?
                                by AugustaRamFan
                                Two questions... How may games before doughnut boy is able to make a true contribution to the team? Granted, he is an upgrade, but how many games will it take?

                                and -Is OP good for the team in a larger sense and/or is it time for the Rams to go another direction??
                                -09-06-2004, 06:56 AM
                              • HUbison
                                Hawks got our problem, too
                                by HUbison
                                Les Carpenter / Times staff columnist
                                Camp-cutting Jones due for appearance

                                In the past, he used to push trucks through the Alabama sun. This was how Walter Jones spent the holdout summers, somewhere finding the perfect technique for stonewalling a pass rusher by putting his gigantic palms on the tailgate of a 4x4 and shoving with all his might.

                                No one around the Seahawks knows what their best player, the one with all the Pro Bowls, has been doing these last few months. Mainly because no one around the Seahawks has seen or talked to Walter Jones. But the season is starting soon, and one of these days they figure they'll see him walking in through the parking lot, bag in hand, ready to play.

                                Yesterday, coach Mike Holmgren was asked if he had heard from his starting left tackle. He laughed.

                                "No, I haven't," he said.

                                Then he smiled.

                                "Usually I hear from one of you guys," Holmgren said. "His agent will tell someone something."

                                But other than a brief, noncommittal conversation with this paper yesterday, Jones' agent, Roosevelt Barnes, has offered nothing.

                                Nobody even believes this is about money anymore. The last two summers, when Jones sat home, the warm days were filled with demands for millions, for a record-breaking signing bonus and a Seahawks refusal to shatter its salary cap for a single player, even if that player was vital to making its offense move. After Seattle gave Grant Wistrom $14 million in guaranteed money this winter, it would have seemed Jones was justified in asking for a pile of money the size of Mount Rainier.

                                Strangely, there has been no talk of money this summer. Jones just packed his bags as he does every January and disappeared. If the Seahawks and Barnes have discussed a contract in that time, they have kept those negotiations awfully quiet.

                                The presumption is that Jones has simply grown accustomed to missing training camp and likes the idea of life without two-a-days and sleeping on tiny beds in a college dorm. And since he has been able to stroll in sometime in early September the last two seasons and still manage to make the Pro Bowl, well, why not do it again?

                                This seems to be a growing trend around the league. Players like Jones, who have been designated their team's franchise player and therefore are not allowed to be free agents, have the luxury of holding their employers over a barrel. Oakland cornerback Charles Woodson missed all of the Raiders' training camp, as did St. Louis tackle Orlando Pace.

                                It's the best scam in football: miss camp and get paid.

                                In Jones' case, the payout will be a little more than $7 million for this season — a fine sum but paltry compared to the tens of millions he could make if he signed a long-term contract. But what's a few more million when you...
                                -09-01-2004, 12:46 PM
                              • RamWraith
                                Punting Without Peer
                                by RamWraith
                                Wednesday, December 3, 2008

                                By Nick Wagoner
                                Senior Writer

                                Five years ago, a low line drive punt traveling 41 yards that netted just 12 yards such as the one Donnie Jones booted in the first quarter against San Francisco on Nov. 16, would have been enough to drive Jones to a point of frustration that would have ruined him for the rest of the game.

                                Such is the fragile psyche of a young punter in the NFL. At one of the few positions in the NFL where success or failure can be instantly recognized by anyone watching, it’s up to the punter to immediately put the previous punt – good or bad – in the rearview mirror.

                                “I’d go in the toilet,” Jones said. “I was bad. I thought I was going to get cut. Then it would kind of snowball.”

                                Since arriving in St. Louis on April 25, 2007 as a free agent, that snowball has apparently melted.

                                In his first season as a Ram, Jones posted one of the finest seasons by a punter in franchise history. His 47.2 yard average was the highest season average in franchise history and helped him finish second in the NFC and third in the NFL in that category.

                                And for as good as Jones was in 2007, he appears poised to take those numbers to a new level.

                                Through 12 games, Jones leads the NFL with a 49.7 yard average on 63 punts. Perhaps more impressive and a testament to the hang time and angle of his punts in addition to the distance is Jones’ 40.7 net average which is good for third in the league and first in the NFC in that category.

                                “I do think he’s a Pro Bowler,” coach Jim Haslett said. “There are a couple things. One, he has a live leg, a really live leg. He’s a big guy, he’s powerful. He can control the ball well, he can spot it, he can place it where he wants to. If he wants to kick it deep, he can kick it high. He can do almost anything he wants. I think Donnie feels good about it; he can’t punt it down there. We don’t have to worry about punting it out of bounds or sideways if we have a great returner. We punt to the best. The coverage units have been doing a good job and obviously he has a heck of a leg on him.”

                                Just 26 games into his career as a Ram, it’s safe to say the days of fretting over being released or where his next opportunity might come are a thing of the past for Jones.

                                “When I got here I finally said ‘Listen, you kicked a bad one so what are you going to do now?’” Jones said. “Are you going to sit there and sulk and say oh what am I going to do? I used to do all of that stuff and it kills you. Your head is not even in the game so you hit a bad one, it’s over. It’s a new game, go back out, start over and do it. The bad ones are going to happen. As much as you don’t want them to happen, they just do for some reason. You have to get over it.”

                                PLEASED TO PUNT

                                The process of remembering to forget has been many years in...
                                -12-04-2008, 05:38 AM
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